Low HP flail mower

[leonz]

Leonz,

Interesting point, might a flail mower be one of the few pieces of equipment that retain or even gain value?

I kinda like the idea of hammers just for smashing debris, but this might be asking for too much.

Do the side cutters leave a combed or striped look? I just can't get over what that will look like on my lawn.

Thanks as always,

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

1. The side slicers give your lawn a better look and are less damaging to the
shafts of the grass plant as only a tiny bit of the grass blade is taken as the
flail mower rolls over it where a rotary mower tears the grass blade.
(compare the two after mowing and you will see this, a flail cut lawn will
suffer less shock damage from mowing as well and will grow back faster as
there are little if any clippings left as they have dissolved back into the soil
as compost.

2. A side slicer will dig furrows in turf or brush and the blade tips will be
come dull and need to be flipped IF the flail mowers rotor is lowered too
much. The rule of thumb is your areas moisture level during the growing
season. When the flail mower is at rest and one row of knives is vertical
in relation to the sod the mower should have 2 inches of space between the
knive edge and the ground ITSELF and no less unless you are beating the
daylights out of reclaimed pasture which I do with ours. The crappy areas
recover faster as the weeds have deeper roots.

Please keep in mind if your turf is on good sod the longer the grass blade the
deeper the roots which is what you want in the case of a drought as they will go dormant.

 

[aczlan]

1. The side slicers give your lawn a better look and are less damaging to the shafts of the grass plant as only a tiny bit of the grass blade is taken as the flail mower rolls over it where a rotary mower tears the grass blade. (compare the two after mowing and you will see this, a flail cut lawn will suffer less shock damage from mowing as well

Are you talking about a finish mower, or a bush hog here? A properly sharpened finish mower will cut the grass rather than ripping it. A bush hog will (by design) rip the grass as you want to have a dull edge to shatter trees or saplings rather than cutting them off (to prevent them from making holes in your tires).

and will grow back faster as
there are little if any clippings left as they have dissolved back into the soil
as compost.

I agree that a flail will cut better than a bush hog, but a mulching finish mower will give you as good of a cut and will leave the clippings just as fine.

Aaron Z

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I'm going to be a little contrarian here. I have a rotary mower and a flail mower, and while their use may overlap some they are no substitutes for each other. The rotary mower is just a lot tougher. If I run over a 2" stick and hit it wrong, it can fly up and jam the flail mower. A rock the size of a softball will get caught in the flail mower and break some flails. High summer grass -- like 3 or 4 feet -- will tend to wrap around the rotor and jam the flail. All of those things the rotary mower will handle without blinking (although I do try to look out for rocks). In heavy brush you have to be able to knock stuff down to mow it, and the rotary mower will generally take as much force in reverse as I can generate without spinning the tires (although I have over-done it a few times). I would never back in hard with the flail, I know it just won't take it.

This time of year, and in the fall, when the greenery is thin and brittle, the flail does well. In high summer I have to go so slow and so high that the flail just isn't worth it. It's faster to do one pass with the rotary mower and knock everything down to six inches or so, and then a second pass with the flail to put a nice finish on.

The original poster mentioned wanting to have a shorter overall length to be more nimble. I find the thing that makes mowing easiest for me is to remove the front end loader. Without something sticking out in front of the steering wheels it's a lot easier to get into tight spaces, and the tractor rides better without the extra weight.

 

[greg_g]

might a flail mower be one of the few pieces of equipment that retain or even gain value?

A few might, but they're the exception rather than the rule. I will say however, that a reasonably maintained flail should HOLD its value better than a rotary or finish mower.

There are good used values out there too. I found a 74" Ford 917H languishing at a farm implement auction. Sitting on the ground, I couldn't even tell if the carrier was true, much less the condition of the bearings. But I got it for $150, so figured I wasn't out much if it was trashed. Turns out it was solid as a rock, and I spent about $350 rebuilding it; new PTO shaft, new belts, new blades/hangers/brackets. Now I've got a perfectly sound - albeit 40 year old - flail, for about 10% of what it would cost me to buy a new one (71" New Holland 918H for example).

//greg//

 

[KRBrouwer]

Leonz,

You have been very patient and informative for me and I think you just cleared up a source of my misunderstanding.

1) Are you indicating that the flail mower has a considerable rear reach as it lowers into the mowing position? If so, how might this compare to my LX4, the rear wheel of which rests 6' from the link arms?

2) My LX4 is just about 400#. BEFCO 60" is similar in weight. My RFM is about 575#. At present, as long as I have my loader attached, I don't have a balance issue, though this weekend I did load a huge section of tree trunk (maybe 20" diameter, 2'long) for balast.
Under these circumstances, would there be any problem with weight/balance?

3) You mentioned drive belts. Are drive belts a significant source of power loss from stretching/slipping? If so, I now understand why a flail mower would use so much more power to run. I was basing my assumptions on attachments that are powered directly by the drive shaft or in the case of my RFM, don't run on intense vegetation in the first place.

4) If #3 is in fact accurate, is BEFCO overselling its products by advertising 60" and 72" flail mowers to be powered by as little as 15 PTO HP? Perhaps this is meant not for jungle clearing as I intend, but for turf mowing instead.

5) Unfortunately, if I have understood correctly, I have some serious thinking to do. I was hoping for a do-it-all mower and retain my 60" cutting swath. Now I would have to decide if I want to sacrifice 12" of cutting width and render my other two cutters irrelevent, add a 60 inch flail but still have to change cutters based on the situation, or just stay with the cutters I have at present

Whatever the decision it is I make, you have provided me with some valuable insight. Thanks for your gift of information.

sincerely,

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

Thanks

SI2305

I have run a 4' Rhino bushog, a 5' finish mower and a 72" flail on my tractors (NH 1320, 18 HP at the PTO, and NH 2220 @ 28 HP at the PTO), and the 72" flail takes less power to run than the 5' finish mower. I have sold the bushog and finish mower, and the flail has replaced both of them. I don't think that you would have any trouble running a 4' flail with your machine.

Ken

 

[SI2305]

Ken,

Just to be clear, I think you meant that I would have no problem with a 5' flail. Was that your intended statement?

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

Thanks

 

[MarkV]

I think you are asking too much of a flail mower. In your first post you talk of reclaiming woodland with saplings, vines and storm junk and then later about the same mower doing 3/4 acre of finish mowing to golf course standards. I just don't think that is going to happen. After all if you could clear the woods and mow the golf course with one unit we would all get rid of our other mowers.

MarkV

 

[SI2305]

MarkV,

Your points are perfectly valid and are the very reason I am seeking advice instead of jumping right in on a fairly expensive piece of equipment, especially since one could make the point (as I myself even suggested) that quite possibly the only benifit I would gain was the relief of not changing implements. I also am quite conservative when buying and I like to gain as much information as possible, so I regard your comment as quite valuable in the overall decision process.

One of the reasons I have spent so much time on this thread is that I have found a dearth of knowledge locally about flail mowers. I stopped by the JD dealer who sold me the tractor in the first place and he did not even know what a flail mower was, what it was used for, how much it cost, its HP requirements, etc. I was astounded and then explained to him my limited knowledge of flail mowers and why my interest in them. He replied to me that the next time he went to a "JD conference" he would inquire about my questions. That was about a year ago and I have yet to hear anything from him. Don't get me wrong, the man has been very helpful in the past and I continue to go to him with minor issues when they occur. He was an honest, decent salesman and I in no way am trying to denegrate him, but his very ignorance of flail mowers is somewhat endemic of the implement itself. That is why I seek information here.

Thanks for your thoughts and I guarantee you I will take them into consideration.

Thanks,

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

 

[knotweed]

I'll post some pictures of what a Yanmar 1610D (16 pto HP) can cut on a regular basis with a BEFCO 60" flail. Love it.

 

[SI2305]

Knotweed,

That would be wonderful. This would be about as close to a 1-to-1 comparison as could be practical. The fact that you have 2 fewer HP but still able to use the machine provides a verry good point of comparrison.

Thanks for your input.

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

 

[SI2305]

Some additional info,

I have been busy these last few days working in my woods and I have found that more mature trees survived than I had feared. I think some of this is new growth on tall trunks. But that growth has helped supress some of the super-dense vegetation deeper in the woods. It is certainly easier to move through the middle of the woods than the edges. At any rate, thanks to all for your input and I always look forward to any additional insight.

Thanks

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs

 

[greg_g]

Close, and I don't want to appear as trying to talk you out of a 5 footer. You may have to go that width just to compensate for offset. But consider the Yanmar has a powershift tranny as opposed to your hydrostat. The powershift is basically a gear-type transmission with a hydraulic clutchpack. In the case of your Deere, it's an accepted fact that hydrostats (of any manufacture) sacrifice efficiency for convenience. In my view, that offsets any horsepower advantage the 2305 may be perceived to hold over the 1601D.

Also consider you have what John Deere euphemistically calls a "limited Cat 1" rear lift. You'd best take some measurements to make sure what you buy is actually going to fit AND that the tractor can safely lift it. I say this because I'm pretty sure "limited Cat 1" means you actually have a Cat 0 hitch with Cat 1 pins. The arms may not spread wide enough to attach a Cat 1 implement without striking the tires in turns, and the toplink bracket might be too low. As for the hydraulics, they are rated on paper to lift ~1400#, but that's from a dead drop. The actual 24" lift is rated at less than half of that.

//greg//

 

[IslandTractor]

I'm going to be a little contrarian here. I have a rotary mower and a flail mower, and while their use may overlap some they are no substitutes for each other. The rotary mower is just a lot tougher. If I run over a 2" stick and hit it wrong, it can fly up and jam the flail mower. A rock the size of a softball will get caught in the flail mower and break some flails. High summer grass -- like 3 or 4 feet -- will tend to wrap around the rotor and jam the flail. All of those things the rotary mower will handle without blinking (although I do try to look out for rocks). In heavy brush you have to be able to knock stuff down to mow it, and the rotary mower will generally take as much force in reverse as I can generate without spinning the tires (although I have over-done it a few times). I would never back in hard with the flail, I know it just won't take it.

This time of year, and in the fall, when the greenery is thin and brittle, the flail does well. In high summer I have to go so slow and so high that the flail just isn't worth it. It's faster to do one pass with the rotary mower and knock everything down to six inches or so, and then a second pass with the flail to put a nice finish on.

The original poster mentioned wanting to have a shorter overall length to be more nimble. I find the thing that makes mowing easiest for me is to remove the front end loader. Without something sticking out in front of the steering wheels it's a lot easier to get into tight spaces, and the tractor rides better without the extra weight.

I agree with most of this. I initially went from rotary plus finish mower to a single flail to both maintain pasture and clear brush of various density. The flail did the job without question but I also noticed that it wasn't as efficient or fast as a plain bush hog in thick brush. The reason is not that the flail cannot handle the brush but rather that the flail reduces the brush to fine mulch as it moves whereas the rotary cutter just breaks it up into medium size chunks. After mowing with the flail the ground is truly clean whereas after the bush hog it looks like a battle zone. However, it takes more time and energy to use the flail in thick brush so sometimes it is better to just hit brush with the rotary first and then maintain the area (and further reduce the bush hog droppings) with the flail. Also, while a flail is not delicate, it is not quite as robust or tank like as a decent medium duty rotary cutter so it does require more attention and maintenance when used in brush hogging.

One more point. When you back into thick brush with a flail, the brush is literally in your face as the flail is cutting only about three feet back from your seat. The mowers don't contact the upper branches which splay out and reach into the operator station frequently before the flail makes contact with the stem/trunk and starts to disintegrate the brush. When backing a rotary cutter into thick brush the action is about six feet or more behind you so don't have to maintain the constant vigilance to avoid being poked in the face by sapling branches or bulky bushes.

If I could only have one mower I'd keep just my Caroni TM1900 but I have found the addition of a Woods BrushBull to be complementary for initial brush clearance. The tag team approach has been a win win. Fewer repairs to flail blades and more relaxing and faster and ultimately cleaner brush clearing.

As an aside, if I were in the OP's position I'd stretch and get the 60" flail as the hedgerow mowing will be an very inefficient task using the 48. I would accept that sometimes I'd need to go slower because of the extra width. In theory the extra width and slower travel speed should tend to cancel each other so you'd get about as much area mowed in a given time period.

 

[SI2305]

greg-g

My assumption regarding the tranny is that I just have to slow down to get the flail up to speed. You are right in assuming that part of my thinking is that to get offset I will need extra width. Just curious about your thoughts. My 2305 has much smaller rear tires, theoretically providing better torque than the larger ones of the Yanmar. I have absolutely no numbers to back me up, but it just makes sense. About the hydro tranny--I thought those numbers were PTO numbers, indicating a more accurate availability of usable HP as opposed to engine HP that does not account to transmission losses.

Either way, I suspect that the numbers in the end are very similar and this could act as a useful "test case."

Regarding the "Limited" category, this attribute drove me crazy with my LX-4. Then I got Pats Easy Change and it effectively extended my bottom links by about 3-4 inches. What a HUGE difference those couple puny inches made in my ability to carry, operate almost any machinery. No longer did my LX-4 drag on the ground. No longer did I continue to grade with my grader blade in the upper position. Now my CAT 1 actually acts like a CAT 1 should. I would never have believed it until I actually did it myself.

Thanks for your thoughts, they will be on my mind as I consider this major purchase.

Thanks

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs
Today 01:16 PM

 

[aczlan]

If I could only have one mower I'd keep just my Caroni TM1900 but I have found the addition of a Woods BrushBull to be complementary for initial brush clearance. The tag team approach has been a win win. Fewer repairs to flail blades and more relaxing and faster and ultimately cleaner brush clearing.

Good point. We are looking at replacing our 5' bushhog with a 6' one. Perhaps I will look for a 6-7' flail instead and keep the 5' bushhog for rough work.

As an aside, if I were in the OP's position I'd stretch and get the 60" flail as the hedgerow mowing will be an very inefficient task using the 48. I would accept that sometimes I'd need to go slower because of the extra width. In theory the extra width and slower travel speed should tend to cancel each other so you'd get about as much area mowed in a given time period.

I agree 100%

Aaron Z

 

[IslandTractor]

Good point. We are looking at replacing our 5' bushhog with a 6' one. Perhaps I will look for a 6-7' flail instead and keep the 5' bushhog for rough work.

Aaron Z

That is exactly what I have. 75" flail and 60" Woods BrushBull 600. Nice combo. I could mount a bigger rotary on my 41hp DK but this one came along used via CL for a price I could not resist. As it's use is only for thick brush having it smaller is actually an advantage for maneuvering and I can operate at a comfortable brush clearing travel speed and keep my RPMs well below PTO speed.

 

[SI2305]

Island Tractor,

Thanks for the contrary opinion. It makes me wonder where a flail fits in with my collection of mowers. At some times, the most useful application is to get those hedges mowed and cleared. I don't really want to get rid of my other mowers, but I want to make certain I am getting this piece of equipment for the right reasons. I understand your comments on the toughness of rotary cutters. Mine can certainly handle a tremendous amount of punishment. This weekend it will see some serious action clearing woods if I can get fallen trees out of the way.

Thanks

SI2305

JD 2305
200CX, LX4, 60" Grader blade, 60" LandPride finish mower that replaced our old lawn mower, middlebuster, home made grass rake for long field grass collection, and now a specialized trailer to move heavy logs
Today 01:16 PM

 

[leonz]

Good point. We are looking at replacing our 5' bushhog with a 6' one. Perhaps I will look for a 6-7' flail instead and keep the 5' bushhog for rough work.


I agree 100%

Aaron Z

Hello Aaron,

I found a couple of John Deere model 370's for sale just now on tractorhouse.

A model year 2000 370 flailmower and a model year 2010 370 flailmower on tractorhouse one is for sale by buck brothers and the other is for sale by Baxla equipment.

The mowers width of cut is 71.5 inches my dads JD25A was a 7 footer.

 

[SI2305]

OK, I am officially jealous now

SI2305

 

[greg_g]

Just curious about your thoughts. My 2305 has much smaller rear tires, theoretically providing better torque than the larger ones of the Yanmar.

Tire size is completely unrelated to PTO output, I'm curious as to how you came up with that association. Anyway. I consider John Deere CUT and SCUT horsepower ratings with a massive grain of salt. There's a significant difference between flywheel horsepower, PTO horsepower, and drawbar power when the latter two go through a hydrostat (as opposed to a conventional gear train). My JD3720 is advertised to have 35 PTO hp, but after owning it for over a year - I feel that's at best a very optimistic number. The tractor I traded for the John Deere had a calculated 39 PTO hp, which on paper is only 4 more than the 3720. But the John Deere struggles - and I don't use the word lightly - struggles with PTO implements (chipper/bush hog/flail/ etc) that the other tractor took in stride. The difference is the hydrostat. Old tractor; geared. John Deere; hydrostat.

So for purposes of this discussion, you too might consider taking John Deere's 2305 PTO horsepower rating with a little salt. Again, I'm only playing devils advocate. It's your money. I'm just tellin' you stuff that I'd consider before spending my own for something down in 2305 territory.

And keying on your PEC comments, I agree they're fine devices. But if you consider the geometry, they lowered the amount you can lift with the rear hitch. I think the 2305 rear lift is rated for a max 681 pounds at the standard 24 inches. But by adding PEC, you've extended that reach by an additional 3 inches. That change in geometry reduces the amount of weight you can effectively lift without compensatory front counterbalance. Short version; it means you have to shop for lighter rear implements.

//greg//