Very similar to my off grid set up:
2 VFX3648, 8 Rolls 530s batts, MPPT 60 and 80, etc.
I'm considering having a solar panel electrical system installed.
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Very similar to my off grid set up:
2 VFX3648, 8 Rolls 530s batts, MPPT 60 and 80, etc.
Alternate energy is the people's energy. Here's why:
When you fill your car at the pump your money goes to a small group of people with a lot of clout in Washington. Take a look at the lobbies that are now controlling this country and the huge amounts of money they are pumping into it. Now corporations have the rights of individuals. That means they elect our senators, congress and president.
When you create your own power, whether through PV, wind, etc. you are enabling your own autonomy and that means less money to corporate control that now dictates how we all live.
My PV arrays benefit me and everyone in our electric coop, everyone's rates are reduced.
My PV arrays mean less pollution from coal, the major pollution in this country comes from coal in the forms of acid rain, etc. Coal companies could use scrubbers to change this but their lobbies are so strong that it's cheaper for them to pay a small fine than to clean up their stacks. Take a look at WV, trillions of dollars going to Massey Industries from coal and yet WV is one of the poorest most poluted states.
My energy Independence also means that I'm not adding to the coffers of terrorists who want to destroy us.
PV diversifies the grid which equates to a stronger infrastructure. Single point energy stops when that energy source is interrupted.
So when we think of the benefits of renewables we should include these facts.
Rob
When you fill your car at the pump your money goes to a small group of people with a lot of clout in Washington. Take a look at the lobbies that are now controlling this country and the huge amounts of money they are pumping into it. Now corporations have the rights of individuals. That means they elect our senators, congress and president.
When you create your own power, whether through PV, wind, etc. you are enabling your own autonomy and that means less money to corporate control that now dictates how we all live.
My PV arrays benefit me and everyone in our electric coop, everyone's rates are reduced.
My PV arrays mean less pollution from coal, the major pollution in this country comes from coal in the forms of acid rain, etc. Coal companies could use scrubbers to change this but their lobbies are so strong that it's cheaper for them to pay a small fine than to clean up their stacks. Take a look at WV, trillions of dollars going to Massey Industries from coal and yet WV is one of the poorest most poluted states.
My energy Independence also means that I'm not adding to the coffers of terrorists who want to destroy us.
PV diversifies the grid which equates to a stronger infrastructure. Single point energy stops when that energy source is interrupted.
So when we think of the benefits of renewables we should include these facts.
Rob
newbury
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Been following this thread for a while and it seems that part of the problem is the variable support from government sources and part is that there are people like LD1 who have become accustomed to cheap power and don't care to change.
Govt support
Back in the mid '80's there was a big tax deduction for solar energy and a LOT of contractors sprung up installing solar hot water systems on rooftops. The pricing structure was (materials + honest labor cost + whatever they thought you could rip from the government). Many systems were installed in my area, poorly designed, poorly functioning, causing leaking roofs and later ripped down.
All costing many thousands of dollars more than they were worth, but essentially paid for by the public via Uncle Sam.
I myself installed more than 30 storm windows and got back from the govt about $180 (30% of window cost, no labor cost, DIY).
So now I can see a big push for solar support letting someone basically get it for free with the rest of the US taxpayers paying for it.
So cash in while the getting's good.
People who use a lot of energy because it was cheap and don't want to change their ways -
That's their choice. Just like people who borrow to much money then scream when they have to pay it back at the rate they signed up for.
Too many Americans seemed to have been weaned on cheap gas and electricity. Too bad. You like the temp 70 degree in the summer? Move or pay for it. Since I've been living away from my fathers temperature regulation I've tried to maintain a living range of 58 degrees to 78 degrees. Our heating and cooling bills are low. SWMBO's complaints are high at the start of a season but she becomes acclimated to it quickly. And we've saved thousands compared to friends who like to live at 70 or 72 year around.
The slight down side is we can't save much more by installing new windows, a more efficient furnace, etc. on our present home in Va.
I'm looking into solar and other tax payer subsidized systems for the house we bought in Ms.
Govt support
Back in the mid '80's there was a big tax deduction for solar energy and a LOT of contractors sprung up installing solar hot water systems on rooftops. The pricing structure was (materials + honest labor cost + whatever they thought you could rip from the government). Many systems were installed in my area, poorly designed, poorly functioning, causing leaking roofs and later ripped down.
All costing many thousands of dollars more than they were worth, but essentially paid for by the public via Uncle Sam.
I myself installed more than 30 storm windows and got back from the govt about $180 (30% of window cost, no labor cost, DIY).
So now I can see a big push for solar support letting someone basically get it for free with the rest of the US taxpayers paying for it.
So cash in while the getting's good.
People who use a lot of energy because it was cheap and don't want to change their ways -
That's their choice. Just like people who borrow to much money then scream when they have to pay it back at the rate they signed up for.
Too many Americans seemed to have been weaned on cheap gas and electricity. Too bad. You like the temp 70 degree in the summer? Move or pay for it. Since I've been living away from my fathers temperature regulation I've tried to maintain a living range of 58 degrees to 78 degrees. Our heating and cooling bills are low. SWMBO's complaints are high at the start of a season but she becomes acclimated to it quickly. And we've saved thousands compared to friends who like to live at 70 or 72 year around.
The slight down side is we can't save much more by installing new windows, a more efficient furnace, etc. on our present home in Va.
I'm looking into solar and other tax payer subsidized systems for the house we bought in Ms.
LD1
Epic Contributor
I wish it was that easy. Here is a quote from this link Generating Your Own Electricity: Net Metering - PUCO
I have a rural coop for electric. And unfortunatally, based on the above, they dont have to offer net-metering but they "can" if the want.
I have called them. They dont. Simple as that.
LD1
Epic Contributor
Hey rob: you said you were considering wind turbines?
How much are those/watt. I have briefly looked that them and I guess one of my biggest fears (besides COP) is that there are SOOOO many comanies and websites selling this stuff, and I know a LOT of it is just chinese junk, and I dont want to get a box full of crap for a lot of $$$$.
Anyways, I came across this Residential Wind Turbine Grid Tie Kit and it has me intrugued. 500W for $900:thumbsup: Thats less than $2/watt and thats BEFORE rebates. That may cut the COP down enough to where I would be interested. Lets say it truly is 0.5kwh and lets say it only runs 8 hours a day....that would generate 120kwh/month...or at my rate, $13/month. Thats a ~70 month payback not counting the rebates. If I take 30% off the $900, that brings the cost to $630 and payback in 48 months:thumbsup:
But for all I know they could just be junk??
Edit: they also list a 1kw one for UNDER $1000 Edit again, I just seen that was turbine only. over 2k for kit
RobertN
Super Member
Our setup was about $24k installed, after rebates. Our bill for last year total was about $350. Most of that was because when the kid got back from Scout camp late last summer, he cranked the AC... We were running $200-300/month electric bill, higher in summer with AC going.
Our house is all electric... Except for the woodstove, which we use a lot in the winter(regardless of our solar stuff).
It only cost a few hundred dollars mor for a bigger inverter, so we went with a 6KW. eventually we'd like to add another 1KW of panels.
We had the solar hot water put in a year before the panels. It is solar over electric. The solar portion is a heat exchanger in the water heater. Electric part has been running during the last 10 days of heavy overcast/rain.
I have to look at home; we can plot out power for hour/day/month.
When we specced the system, payout was about 10 years, at todays rates. Here in Calif though, the rates keep going up and up and up...
Without papers in front of me, I think lifetime was 20 or 25 year. BUT... That was not to failure. They derate a little over time. Our panels dropped a few percentage points at that time(95% efficient to 92% or something like that... again do not have paper here in front of me).
When we reroofed right before having the solar installed, we also added solar attic vent/fan.
Our house is all electric... Except for the woodstove, which we use a lot in the winter(regardless of our solar stuff).
It only cost a few hundred dollars mor for a bigger inverter, so we went with a 6KW. eventually we'd like to add another 1KW of panels.
We had the solar hot water put in a year before the panels. It is solar over electric. The solar portion is a heat exchanger in the water heater. Electric part has been running during the last 10 days of heavy overcast/rain.
I have to look at home; we can plot out power for hour/day/month.
When we specced the system, payout was about 10 years, at todays rates. Here in Calif though, the rates keep going up and up and up...
Without papers in front of me, I think lifetime was 20 or 25 year. BUT... That was not to failure. They derate a little over time. Our panels dropped a few percentage points at that time(95% efficient to 92% or something like that... again do not have paper here in front of me).
When we reroofed right before having the solar installed, we also added solar attic vent/fan.
RobertN
Super Member
This is my disappointment. After years in high-tech, and seeing various US Fab's shut down, it gets me that more of this is not fabbed in the States. I know the technology is different, but at same time I have seen AMD, TI, Intel, and others shut down Fabs. They all have the technology to make some nice Si...
But, that is the way of everything else... Drills, microwaves etc... Or cell phones... Not a one made in the US...
But, that is the way of everything else... Drills, microwaves etc... Or cell phones... Not a one made in the US...
beppington
Elite Member
It must simply be cheaper to make things outside the US right now. Your disappointment should prob be directed at our govt, not companies that decide for themselves how to best profit.
LD1
Epic Contributor
So to sum it up, you were ~$5/watt installed, and COP was 10 years correct?
That 10 year payback is based on what electric rate? Mine is 0.11/kwh, while not the best (I hear people on here say they are in the 7-8 cent range which I was also until about 1.5years ago) but my 0.11 certainly isnt the worst. Hearing people @ 0.30/kwh just blows my mind. If my rates were THAT high, payback would be MUCH quicker. Since @ my average of 2000kwh usage, I would have $600 electric bills and not $200-220.
SPYDERLK
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Thats where I am. Thers no grid connection option here. When there is, and prices come down a bit, I want to put in 10,000+ square feet of panels. Output on hi sun should be about 100KW at todays cell efficiency. That should run a net income year round and power my farm free. I dont want to get into batteries. Grid tie is capable of handling everything except the the actual solar generation.
larry
LD1
Epic Contributor
Glad I'm not the only one.
I am not interested in the batteties for several reasons
1. Expensive
2. Maintenance
3. I have VERY reliable power
4. Batteries really arent that green when you consider what goes into making them.
5. Grid tie is just SOOO much simpler.
And you are right, IF one day my power company ever does net metering, and costs come down to ~5-7 year paybacks, you bet I'd install as many panels as I could afford and make money on the deal. That day just isnt today.
I put my system in fall of last year. 9200 watts installed. I have been averaging about 1 MWH/month so far. Less in DEC and Jan, but now on the increase. The "book" value from an installer was $ 46K. I did most of the work myself, and had the install firm (a friend) do the "official" stuff for the state and utility. This enabled me to have an out of pocket cost of $30K. Federal and state rebates brought this down to $ 10K. We have net metering so my payback is about 6-7 years, but you are able to sell renewable energy credits on an open market (auction). See www.srectrade.com This should lower my payback to about 3 years. If utilities go up in price, then better for me. Also panel prices have dropped about 30% since I bought mine. This would have saved me about $7K, but the $7K state rebate is no longer available, so It would be a wash. The panels are warranted for 25 years and the inverter for 20 years. When these warranties are up I should be dead.
paul
paul
RobertN
Super Member
This is not your fault but it's what has done so much damage to renewables. These guys should be tared and feathered and dragged down a dirt country road backward.
Before you put in a wind turbine you have to monitor your site for a period to make sure you have enough wind. You can go to Southwest Windpower's site, they have image maps of everyone's area down to front lawns which will give you a very good idea and start.
Wind turbine output is an aspect of the swept area of the blades, those 4-1/2 foot blades aren't going to give you much. the catch is that they are rated at 500watts at 10 meters/sec or about 25 mph. No one I know has constant 25 mile an hour wind! And you have to get that turbine high up to get any real benefit, that means another 2 to 4K for towers for that small wind mill, the bigger windmills get the more the tower cost.
Wind has some benefits ,like the fact that it balances PV but there are some real downsides. It has to come down off that tower every year or two for checking and maintenance and after about 5 years the blades have to be changed. You also need some real estate because the towers take up room and some, not all, can be noisy. That little turbine is likely on the noisy list because it spins so fast.
I do see some new designs coming out and it's OK for me because I'm building mine from scratch and I have good wind (12 to 14 mph at times) in my front pasture but basically I think unless you know wind it should be a second or third option. PV interite goes in and runs and runs and runs for years with no maintenance. For newbies it's what I advise if you don't have a good stream.
Rob
I'm not going to completely disagree with you Larry but this is what got Germany in trouble. If you're selling power back to the grid this is certainly a good thing .... as long as the grid holds up. When the grid is down, you're down. Germany found out the hard way that storage is a part of the equation.
My batteries are not a problem, they sit here and when they have to come into play they do. I check the levels and they sometimes need water every 4 to 6 months if they get used. I'm still net zero because my intertie zeros out my bill so it's like living off the grid without the hassle of batteries. So basically the batteries are like a gen set only they don't need gas. That's nice because when the power dips or drops my well pump, my oil burner motor, water circulators, fridge and freezer all keep going.
Rob
Recoveryhill
Gold Member
Eddie,
I'm your unfortunate future. I pay.46 per kilowatt hour for municipal power. I estimate the current average in the states is around .10. Multiply your current bill by five and there you go. Just as I hope mine doesn't go to .70/.80, I hope your's doesn't go to .40 plus, but I would't count on that.
My attention is geared toward wind and or solar and will have to make the jump here, sooner or later. The payback at .10 is not there. The payback at half a buck per kilowatt hour is real.
Good luck!
That sounds about right Paul. This month I'll probably do 700 KWH but this is March in the North East, by June I should be a lot higher, I expect yours will be too.
Rob
wirenut
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Max so far is about 3000kwh/month - lowest about 2000kw/h, so avg 2500 kwh/ month. cost per kwh about $0.10
moeh1
Gold Member
How much effect does orientation have on the panels? I assume the 10-13 W/sq ft average is affected by how the light hits it?
