I'm considering having a solar panel electrical system installed.

[Rob-D]

Home Gasifier Experimenters Kit

That's pretty neat!

 

[Rob-D]

Look I'm trying to show people that alternate energy is viable by what I've done, that all the hype, bad info and nonsense is doing everyone a disservice.

What happened to all the hard work and ingenuity that built this country? We've turned into a bunch of nay sayers sitting on our soft couches dithering our lives away watching ball games. We're so afraid of change that we will spout anything that supports our stagnation while oil companies feed us pabulum about how renewables don't work and we're all better off paying so much for oil that we can't breath.

Last year we lost power for a week, life went on for us without a hitch. Who here wouldn't want that freedom? Who here wouldn't like to stop the oil companies and their lobbies from strangling this country?

I just checked my intertie meter, my intertie is producing over 3.5KWH right now, for those of you who don't understand what that means use this as a reference:

One HP = 746 watts that means I'm making over 5 HP and it's slightly overcast here!

Rob

 

[NorTracNY]

Hopefully the OP will clarify his question soon.

Some very good post. Before putting in any energy system; PV, wood burning stove, wind, solar water, geo thermal, etc. you should first look at your energy needs. Insulation in the house, inefficient appliances, etc. are almost always cheaper to tackle.

Very good points also have been mentioned on people spending tons of money on items that are not necessities without being ridiculed like someone looking into an alternative energy. Rob-D, nice points.

For me, I've looked at solar, wind, geothermal, solar hot water over the last 8-9 years. Solar PV finally makes sense for us. The price has dropped, rebates & credits have increased, and now NY allows leasing. I'd suggest anyone in NY to look at solar. The leasing is right for us, I'm told the numbers don't work out for everyone. We are spending just a few thousand to have all of our electricity needs paid for for AT LEAST 20 years. We will conservatively save over 10K and more likely closer to 20K.

I've been told that off-grid still doesn't make sense financially. The batteries are pretty expensive, and some of the rebates only apply to grid connected systems.

 

[Rob-D]

Hopefully the OP will clarify his question soon.

Some very good post. Before putting in any energy system; PV, wood burning stove, wind, solar water, geo thermal, etc. you should first look at your energy needs. Insulation in the house, inefficient appliances, etc. are almost always cheaper to tackle.

Very good points also have been mentioned on people spending tons of money on items that are not necessities without being ridiculed like someone looking into an alternative energy. Rob-D, nice points.

For me, I've looked at solar, wind, geothermal, solar hot water over the last 8-9 years. Solar PV finally makes sense for us. The price has dropped, rebates & credits have increased, and now NY allows leasing. I'd suggest anyone in NY to look at solar. The leasing is right for us, I'm told the numbers don't work out for everyone. We are spending just a few thousand to have all of our electricity needs paid for for AT LEAST 20 years. We will conservatively save over 10K and more likely closer to 20K.

I've been told that off-grid still doesn't make sense financially. The batteries are pretty expensive, and some of the rebates only apply to grid connected systems.

Thanks.
And I notice you're in Western NY, not the best sun place on the planet for sun but still, like me in the Catskills, you can see a real benefit.

I think people have to put aside their preconceived ideas and start to look at renewables without the previous biases, they do work and are viable.

Assess your needs, do some unbiased reading and then decide. A solar panel recovers the energy used to construct it in one year, after that you get 29+ years of clean beneficial energy. As fuel costs rise the payback gets shorter. Who here think fuel costs are going to drop back to a buck a gallon?

Rob

 

[BoFuller]

I'm going with an off-grid system on my ranch because I have to (no power for miles), and because I want to be ready for total self-sustained living.
Yes, solar panels have come way down in price and are a lot more efficient, but it is still expensive.
Personally, I think you get more people interested by showing what you can do, and encouraging them to take little steps, not by telling them how ignorant they are.
Your co-op thing sounds like a sweet deal, but for most of us, the payback period is huge, and on the average, the average Joe cannot produce electricity for anything close to what the grid can. I am 100% for alternative energy, and I'm doing what I can, but you might back off the in-your-face attitude if you are really interested in getting others to participate.
My 2 cents

 

[LD1]

Rod-D: Not everyone has the ability to get a free intertie system. In fact, I have never heard that until now.

If my electric company offered it, I'd have it in a heartbeat. After all, its free right:thumbsup: But that 6.4k intertie that you got free would cost most of us 50-60k+. And THAT just doesnt justify due to long cost of payback.

I have looked at solar SEVERAL times, and ALWAYS come to the same conclusion as grsthegreat and dmccarty, payback times are TOO long.

In their example of $6/watt installed:

with my 0.11/kwh electric, $6 would buy me ~55000 watts of electricity. "assuming" 100% efficcency and "assuming" 12 hours of charge/day, it would take 4646 days to pay back. Thats 12.7 years:confused2: And thats also assuming the pannels dont start to degrade or need replaced before then.

Thats why it just dont make sense to me. The payback needs to be 5 years or less for me to really consider it.

But heck, if my electric company ever comes up to me and says "hey, well install this system free of charge for you, AND never bill you again" of course I'd say yes.

 

[Rob-D]

I'm going with an off-grid system on my ranch because I have to (no power for miles), and because I want to be ready for total self-sustained living.
Yes, solar panels have come way down in price and are a lot more efficient, but it is still expensive.
Personally, I think you get more people interested by showing what you can do, and encouraging them to take little steps, not by telling them how ignorant they are.
Your co-op thing sounds like a sweet deal, but for most of us, the payback period is huge, and on the average, the average Joe cannot produce electricity for anything close to what the grid can. I am 100% for alternative energy, and I'm doing what I can, but you might back off the in-your-face attitude if you are really interested in getting others to participate.
My 2 cents

Thanks Bo,
First, I'm not calling people ignorant but I am saying there is a lot of ignorance and misguided thinking about alternate energy out there.

You're late to these debates, I have been showing people that renewables are possible by what I have done, it's not theory it's actually being done successfully and not only by me. When this basic debate started many threads ago people were bashing CFL's because they thought they were a liberal ploy. I've pretty much ended that silliness and now that LEDs are in the wings to take over from CFL's things will only get better for high efficiency lighting.

There are people who get on every alternate energy thread and shake their heads no but they know very little about the subject and aren't off the grid or intertied.

I get pm's from the ones really interested in what can be done and I've helped a lot of people get started both in my local area and on the net so it's not really accurate to say I'm not helping or not helping as much as I could if I sugar coated my statements.

I won't let the nay sayers spread bad info. I'm all ears if someone has valid info but just parroting some talk show host who couldn't find a flat on a unicycle won't cut it.
If you noticed this thread started with a simple inquiry and then the nay sayer took over. That's not what the poster asked for. You'll also notice that I addressed his question.

I like the idea that you,re thinking about autonomy, that's how I started too!

Rob

 

[BoFuller]

Okay, not knowing the history is probably enough to offer my apologies. I do most of my solar talking on a solar forum, where many have made it work. But for most people, it is WAY more expensive to create your own than to have the grid.
But when the SHTF one of these days, I will be self-sustaining and one the very few that have power. :thumbsup:

 

[NorTracNY]

with my 0.11/kwh electric, $6 would buy me ~55000 watts of electricity. "assuming" 100% efficcency and "assuming" 12 hours of charge/day, it would take 4646 days to pay back. Thats 12.7 years:confused2: And thats also assuming the pannels dont start to degrade or need replaced before then.

Thats why it just dont make sense to me. The payback needs to be 5 years or less for me to really consider it.

But heck, if my electric company ever comes up to me and says "hey, well install this system free of charge for you, AND never bill you again" of course I'd say yes.

This is just a good example of everyone is different in their investments. I'd have said yes for a 12.7years. The panels are guaranteed for 20 years and often last 30+. The inverters are what last 15-25years, but I'm told they are getting better. Because of NY allowing leasing my return went from 15 years to less than 8. Also almost ALL risk was removed since the system and the production are guaranteed for the 20 years.

 

[Rob-D]

Rod-D: Not everyone has the ability to get a free intertie system. In fact, I have never heard that until now.

If my electric company offered it, I'd have it in a heartbeat. After all, its free right:thumbsup: But that 6.4k intertie that you got free would cost most of us 50-60k+. And THAT just doesnt justify due to long cost of payback.

I have looked at solar SEVERAL times, and ALWAYS come to the same conclusion as grsthegreat and dmccarty, payback times are TOO long.

In their example of $6/watt installed:

with my 0.11/kwh electric, $6 would buy me ~55000 watts of electricity. "assuming" 100% efficcency and "assuming" 12 hours of charge/day, it would take 4646 days to pay back. Thats 12.7 years:confused2: And thats also assuming the pannels dont start to degrade or need replaced before then.

Thats why it just dont make sense to me. The payback needs to be 5 years or less for me to really consider it.

But heck, if my electric company ever comes up to me and says "hey, well install this system free of charge for you, AND never bill you again" of course I'd say yes.

Well it won't cost 50 or 60k, it will cost 30 to 42k minus 30% from the gov and whatever other incentives your state gives. Now your half of your estimate depending on how many installers are in your area and what they get a watt. In my area (Upstate NY) the local installer gets $7.50 a watt complete, turnkey.
I think that's very high, I can buy all the components for a system for under$3.00 a watt, actually well under that using US panels. My 6.4KW intertie ran around 19.5K if I remember, I put it in myself, with the grant from the coop it would have cost me about 22K more to do the system through him but why give an installer 22K for a few days work? Let me also say that I didn't cut corners on the parts, all the stuff I used is top shelf, SolarEdge MPPT's on each panel and top notch panels, not China made.

OK, so I'm an electronic engineer and I do have a degree of expertise but I'll tell you that a good solar supplier can pretty much walk you through the process and there's plenty of help on the net. In fact the tedious work was in getting the paper work in for the grant because I had to do diagrams of the layout and use exact steps to satisfy my coop. Hey, for a free setup I did it. I'm not the only one I have a friend in the village who got an incentive from NYSEG, not the coop, to put in panels and she was so happy she added more panels last year. So grants and incentives are out there, you have to do a little digging maybe but you can get them and let's not forget the 30% payback from Uncle Sam. If you'rewaiting for someone to come up and hold your hand you have a long wait, you ahve to go find it.

But let's talk about cost. My panels are giving me free energy, I don't care what happens to energy cost, in fact if prices go up I make more on my sale back to the coop. Are you betting prices of energy will drop? Because I'm betting they will rise and the more they rise the better for the guy who took the solar plunge.

My off grid system wasn't done in a year. The first year I bought the batteries, one inverter and 8 panels (about 10k cost wise). A couple of years later I added the second inverter. Now I'm adding panels, I have about 15k out of pocket, the gov. gives me back 5k and the new panels I,m buying are all I need to buy now. The inverters, MPPT's, hubs and batteries are all in place and all I'm doing is adding panels and mounts. So for 5k I'll probably triple my power, add my DIY microhydro and wind and my heat bill goes away. Now the time it takes to recoup my investment is quite short.

So you're probably saying, "Hey I can't put it in myself." but that won't get you anywhere, you'll have to start thinking outside the box because the benefits are there, hey I got them so can you or anyone else.
Now PV is ridiculously cheap, in fact my dealer just called the other day and said prices on the panels I was looking at dropped 10 cents a watt. So who's saying they can't afford a $1.50 or less a watt with 30% back? I have a 3320 that cost more than my whole system. My car costs more too. I see people buying 60" TV's saying I can't afford PV. Look down the road at all the 30, 40 and 50 grand cars and trucks going by. Who's kidding who?
All this is if the grid never fails, if it does fail and that's not impossible, the people who have a system will have gold and payback won't even enter the conversation.
Rob

 

[Rob-D]

This is just a good example of everyone is different in their investments. I'd have said yes for a 12.7years. The panels are guaranteed for 20 years and often last 30+. The inverters are what last 15-25years, but I'm told they are getting better. Because of NY allowing leasing my return went from 15 years to less than 8. Also almost ALL risk was removed since the system and the production are guaranteed for the 20 years.

Yes, and that's if energy prices don't go up, if they do you're looking at fewer years and I'll bet those inverters last a very long time, my Outback off grid inverters are bullet proof, the gov. used them in Desert Storm.

Rob

 

[tommu56]

The biggest problem i have when people ask about my system they assume I live like they do at home on it crock pot 2 days a week Air conditioning TV on all day ect.

I explain that I have a speedometer / odometer (A Bogart meter) right in the living room and before you turn on a large load you see whats going on then decide to do it now or wait most people don't have the devotion to do it.

The cabin behind me said he wanted one to run his ac when he is there (3-4 times a year total) and when I explained he didn't have the correct location to get the sun. He didn't want to take no for an answer he called another electrician and the electrician called me to see how my system was because he never put one in and I explained the problem with the location being in a north south valley with a short window for sun Im on top of the hill and get plenty of sun. so he priced out a system and the old guy couldn't believe the cost and dropped it wasting our time.

tom

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I researched solar several years ago, and found it to be cost prohibitive. With the prices of panels falling dramatically, I've priced it recently, and figure I could make it work for a grid tie system, if I do my own installation, and with the tax incentives. If you have to pay someone to install it, it's too expensive. I'm just finishing up my own geothermal installation, and would love to have solar to power it. I'm looking at the microinverters, anyone with experience with those?

 

[MadJack]

go to Backwoods Solar Electric Systems and get their catalog... it's free. It not only lists what they sell but the book explains what each item is for, how it works, and shows you how to decide if it's right for you.

Solar Electric Power, Wind Power & Balance of System has a great forum with very knowledgeable folks that will help explain things as well.

I am OFF-GRID, simply because it will cost over $18,000 [cash up front] for the power company to run wires to my house. I built my house for maximum efficiency so I'm already ahead of the game . . . somewhat.
Right now we run the whole house off a Honda EU3000 [115 volt - 21.7 amp] using 10 gallons of gas per week, but we're looking for the propane conversion to eliminate gas cans and the high cost of fuel. Gas is nearly $4.00 gallon and propane is currently $2.69 gallon for bulk delivery.

Inverter/charge controller should be on it's way now, I'm picking up two more L-16 6volt batteries next week [already have 2] and we'll be ordering 10 200+ watt panels in April. All of this will cut our fuel consumption by more than half.
And since a found a great deal on 68' of tower, I'll be playing with the wind this summer as well.

It's is a work in progress if you don't have $30K to $50K to pay someone else to install a system for you.

 

[LD1]

Well it won't cost 50 or 60k, it will cost 30 to 42k minus 30% from the gov and whatever other incentives your state gives. Now your half of your estimate depending on how many installers are in your area and what they get a watt. In my area (Upstate NY) the local installer gets $7.50 a watt complete, turnkey.
I think that's very high, I can buy all the components for a system for under$3.00 a watt, actually well under that using US panels. My 6.4KW intertie ran around 19.5K if I remember, I put it in myself, with the grant from the coop it would have cost me about 22K more to do the system through him but why give an installer 22K for a few days work? Let me also say that I didn't cut corners on the parts, all the stuff I used is top shelf, SolarEdge MPPT's on each panel and top notch panels, not China made.

OK, so I'm an electronic engineer and I do have a degree of expertise but I'll tell you that a good solar supplier can pretty much walk you through the process and there's plenty of help on the net. In fact the tedious work was in getting the paper work in for the grant because I had to do diagrams of the layout and use exact steps to satisfy my coop. Hey, for a free setup I did it. I'm not the only one I have a friend in the village who got an incentive from NYSEG, not the coop, to put in panels and she was so happy she added more panels last year. So grants and incentives are out there, you have to do a little digging maybe but you can get them and let's not forget the 30% payback from Uncle Sam. If you'rewaiting for someone to come up and hold your hand you have a long wait, you ahve to go find it.

But let's talk about cost. My panels are giving me free energy, I don't care what happens to energy cost, in fact if prices go up I make more on my sale back to the coop. Are you betting prices of energy will drop? Because I'm betting they will rise and the more they rise the better for the guy who took the solar plunge.

My off grid system wasn't done in a year. The first year I bought the batteries, one inverter and 8 panels (about 10k cost wise). A couple of years later I added the second inverter. Now I'm adding panels, I have about 15k out of pocket, the gov. gives me back 5k and the new panels I,m buying are all I need to buy now. The inverters, MPPT's, hubs and batteries are all in place and all I'm doing is adding panels and mounts. So for 5k I'll probably triple my power, add my DIY microhydro and wind and my heat bill goes away. Now the time it takes to recoup my investment is quite short.

So you're probably saying, "Hey I can't put it in myself." but that won't get you anywhere, you'll have to start thinking outside the box because the benefits are there, hey I got them so can you or anyone else.
Now PV is ridiculously cheap, in fact my dealer just called the other day and said prices on the panels I was looking at dropped 10 cents a watt. So who's saying they can't afford a $1.50 or less a watt with 30% back? I have a 3320 that cost more than my whole system. My car costs more too. I see people buying 60" TV's saying I can't afford PV. Look down the road at all the 30, 40 and 50 grand cars and trucks going by. Who's kidding who?
All this is if the grid never fails, if it does fail and that's not impossible, the people who have a system will have gold and payback won't even enter the conversation.
Rob

So I still dont understand how you got a 6.4k intertie for free Could you explain

Yes, and that's if energy prices don't go up, if they do you're looking at fewer years and I'll bet those inverters last a very long time, my Outback off grid inverters are bullet proof, the gov. used them in Desert Storm.

Rob

The 12.7year payback was assuming 12 hours a day and 100% and only $6 a watt. So that 12.7years is BEST CASE scenerio.

Another thing that really hurts me is that my power coop does NOT do net metering. So if I make a surplus, I cannot "sell" back. So I will always have a power bill. Unless I have a HUGE system capable of providing enough juice for the high demand times, like when the heat is on, wife is cooking dinner, and drying a load of clothes all at the time the water heater kicks on. And if I have a system that big, that is a ton of wasted surplus that I am giving the power company for free.

I am NOT interested in off-grid.

I guess the way I see it, I'll hold out a bit longer. Things will eventually get cheaper to where I can afford them. Kinda like in the 1990's when PC's were becomming popular. An average system would easially cost you $2k and that was 20 years ago. NOW an average system well under a grand. And adjust that for inflation.........

I think alternative energy is going to be the same way. Another 10 years and I think it will be a whole lot more affordable.

 

[techman]

Gas is nearly $4.00 gallon and propane is currently $2.69 gallon for bulk delivery.

I see your reasoning, but I think your propane pricing is a bit on the low side. Also bulk, off-road gasoline can be had cheaper as well. Normally gasoline will win the BTU/$$$ race.

You should really consider getting a diesel genset. The biggest advantage is you can buy off-road diesel at a reasonable price (think heating oil) and it will store long term without any degradation like in gasoline. Propane is nice as a fuel, but if you look into it, it will cost you a lot more than diesel to run.

paul

 

[3930dave]

My personal goal for a retirement property has been off-grid, though a good argument has been made here for going with both types simultaneously. Adding a To Do entry to my RoundTuIts list to run numbers for both scenarios again.

I've seen turn-key whole house inter-tie systems here (Ontario, Canada) with paybacks less than 10 years.

Batteries can get more expensive for people who won't/can't do maintenance. Battery maintenance is simple, (adding distilled water, cleaning connections at a minimum) but should be factored into a battery budget scenario. Maintenance does make a difference - I get (knock wood) 10 years+ from car batteries, while the norm in this climate is approx. 5 years in automotive use.

Like anything, you can find battery deals if you spend the ergs looking. A bit of luck never hurts either, I met a guy 10 years ago that bought up new large industrial batteries for a deep discount. It turned out they were slightly out of spec for a utility contract. The "defect" was minor (something like a variance in case or terminal size), and had no impact on him using them.

Your utility bill will continue to ramp, and not just the kwh cost. We are careful with your electric (grid) useage now, but we usually have more "service" fees on a bill, than actual consumption.

I'm actually waiting for a line item on my Electric bill that goes something like "We couldn't think of a new story, so we are just going to stick you with this extra charge because we can !".

For those of us now enjoying Smart Metering, remember, you pretty much have lost all control of your bill. With flat rate meters, you could always get them reconciled if there was a billing error. With Smart Meters, if the billing computer decides that 96% of your consumption was during peak time, good luck fighting that one.

There are many factors to consider in selecting a system, just wanted to toss my 2 cents into the pot.

Rgds, D.

 

[SPYDERLK]

What guidance can you share with me?



Thanks!

Is there the capability to interface with and share surplus with the grid via smart meter? Our area doesnt have this or Id be considering putting in solar.
larry

 

[Rob-D]

I researched solar several years ago, and found it to be cost prohibitive. With the prices of panels falling dramatically, I've priced it recently, and figure I could make it work for a grid tie system, if I do my own installation, and with the tax incentives. If you have to pay someone to install it, it's too expensive. I'm just finishing up my own geothermal installation, and would love to have solar to power it. I'm looking at the microinverters, anyone with experience with those?

My intertie runs SolarEdge MPPT's on each panel. I highly recommend them or the Enphase, your choice. Not only do they optimize each panel but if I have a panel shaded by clouds it doesn't drag down the whole system. I think microinverters are the way to go.
I continuously monitor my system and so does SolarEdge, in fact if I have a panel failure (never has happened) they know before I do.

I agree, do it yourself. An intertie is a very simple install, put in the panels and an inverter and tie it to the grid. Microinverters are slightly more complex but nothing most thinking people can't handle.

Here's two screen shots of my intertie. SolarEdge1 is my monthly output so far this month. The second pic is an analysis of one day (Mar 17). So I also have a screen that shows all my panels and I can immediately see if something isn't correct.
I don't really have to check my system but it's nice to see what's going on. I like the SolarEdge because it's an MPPT. For those of you who don't know what MPPT is, let me explain.
MPPT stand for Maximum Power Point Tracking. It optimise's the power from the panels voltage and current and gives the best power that the panel can produce... constantly so you always get the most out of each panel.
On my off grid system I have separate chargers that do the same thing. Solar is making leaps and bounds, today's system is much more sophisticated than even two or three years ago and things will only get better.
So today I'm adding panels to my off grid system that are the same size as my 6 year old panels but more powerful.

Rob

 

[3930dave]

Hi Larry,

I don't know the official metering story in your area, sorry.

Homepower.com has a section in their magazine that covers the regulatory side of things. Usually they post updates in that section for the USA, State by State. If you haven't checked out Homepower before, it is a good resource for Alt Energy information, and has v. good breakdowns on system cost and payback.

Also try checking with an established local Renewable Energy contractor. Sometimes the application/regulatory processes can make the actual installation look easy, so it can help a lot talking to somebody who's been through the paperwork already.

Alternative Energy technology is pretty well established by now, and continues to become more affordable. Part of my point earlier is that while those costs decline, utility costs continue to climb. As time goes on, those 2 curves will cross-over for more people.

The easiest justification for Alternate Energy is usually a remote location. If you go back far enough (1950s), many governments pushed for rural electrification. Now, the New Line Connect costs in many jurisdictions can easily fund a whole Alternative Energy system.

Money is a critical factor, but only one of several that needs to be considered.

Rgds, D.