I'm considering having a solar panel electrical system installed.

[Alien]

They are popular here in California... rebates and credits soften the expense... several on my street.

All have the grid tie in... so they don't have a working system if the grid is down... they also do not have storage batteries.

SMA provide an add on device that takes over if the grid goes down and provides power to the house so long as the sun is shining. It's called the Sunny Backup. (Blackout Blocker) I am considering one myself. I have a 4 kwh system.
Here is a link. Backup Systems.SMA Australia Pty Ltd

Of Course, If you want to wait a little. Solar may be a thing of the past. There have been amazing advances in free energy lately and it is getting to the mass manufacturing stage very soon.
http://pesn.com/2012/03/16/9602059_Final_Update_on_South_African_Fuel-Free_Generator_Before/

Cheers

 

[forgeblast]

Honeywell Store - Honeywell WT6500 Wind Turbine with Blade Tip Power System for residential and commercial use.

Any thoughts about the new honeywell wind turbine? Looks like ace harware will be carrying them.

 

[Rob-D]

How much effect does orientation have on the panels? I assume the 10-13 W/sq ft average is affected by how the light hits it?

It depends on a couple of factors. The pitch of your roof and the system. Micro controllers increase the efficiency because the sun side isn't dragged down by the shielded side.
Figure about 15 to 20% loss for an east/west orientation over south facing panels.
My intertie is east/west with a 6/12 roof pitch, I'm losing about 15% or so. My roof, however, has great sun exposure.
Today roof pitch isn't as detrimental as it once was although it's best to have south facing panels if it's possible. The good side of roof mounting is the panels are out of the way, you don't need to dig any holes to put in posts and if you don't have the room for panels on your land (like in the suburbs) you still get unobtrusive energy. Some people fill their whole roof with panels and don't worry about the orientation, they figure they're still getting a benefit.

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

SMA provide an add on device that takes over if the grid goes down and provides power to the house so long as the sun is shining. It's called the Sunny Backup. (Blackout Blocker) I am considering one myself. I have a 4 kwh system.
Here is a link. Backup Systems.SMA Australia Pty Ltd

Of Course, If you want to wait a little. Solar may be a thing of the past. There have been amazing advances in free energy lately and it is getting to the mass manufacturing stage very soon.
Final Update on South African Fuel-Free Generator Before...

Cheers

I don't believe it. They are claiming a COP of over one and that defies physics. The Howard Johnson motor is another gimmick. Yes it turns but it doesn't do any more than that- it can't do real work.
We would all love to see a silver bullet but don't expect one, there are some brilliant people out there and we may get to the point where we harness the sun's energy very efficiently but that will take time. New battery technology will also take time.

Lots of gimmicks, we had a TSC selling heaters that "reduce heating bills by 50%". Reading the small print you have to shut off rooms! A lot of people bought them. I emailed the company asking the specific efficiency of their electric heater and they never responded. I had a long talk with the local TSC, they took the heaters off the shelves.

SMA, however, is a solid company and their technology works.

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

Honeywell Store - Honeywell WT6500 Wind Turbine with Blade Tip Power System for residential and commercial use.

Any thoughts about the new honeywell wind turbine? Looks like ace harware will be carrying them.

I think there may be merit to this wind mill. I haven't seen the small print but the technology is valid.
But remember this, the swept area of a wind turbine determines its power capability. There's something called the Betz's Factor, it's the maximum amount of energy you can get out of a specific area of wind, the max is 59%. So the benefit of this windmill is that you get a smaller wind mill giving the same output as a moderately larger one but it can't exceed 59%.

Rob

 

[moeh1]

It depends on a couple of factors. The pitch of your roof and the system. Micro controllers increase the efficiency because the sun side isn't dragged down by the shielded side.
Figure about 15 to 20% loss for an east/west orientation over south facing panels.
My intertie is east/west with a 6/12 roof pitch, I'm losing about 15% or so. My roof, however, has great sun exposure.
Today roof pitch isn't as detrimental as it once was although it's best to have south facing panels if it's possible. The good side of roof mounting is the panels are out of the way, you don't need to dig any holes to put in posts and if you don't have the room for panels on your land (like in the suburbs) you still get unobtrusive energy. Some people fill their whole roof with panels and don't worry about the orientation, they figure they're still getting a benefit.

Rob

Thanks Rob,
I looked at this about 4-5 years ago. Was a twenty year payback on panels that were supposed to last about 20 years. Efficiency is up and cost is down. I have one of the metal arch barns, with an east-west orientation. Roof is doing nothing anyway and already full of bolts to attach something onto. May be worth another look at the economics.

 

[NorTracNY]

Thanks Rob,
I looked at this about 4-5 years ago. Was a twenty year payback on panels that were supposed to last about 20 years. Efficiency is up and cost is down. I have one of the metal arch barns, with an east-west orientation. Roof is doing nothing anyway and already full of bolts to attach something onto. May be worth another look at the economics.

Marty,
You can check out the effect of efficiency on Solarmetric's website. For angle the ideal is about latitude - 15degrees. So a 7/12 in NY works pretty close to ideal. I was surprised at how deviating from South isn't as much of a killer as the tilt. I have a large South facing wall, but it's pretty bad compared to rotating a roof 30degrees from South.
If you're in NY, look into solar again. It's way down as I mentioned in an earlier post. NY now allows leasing.

 

[techman]

Marty,
You can check out the effect of efficiency on Solarmetric's website. For angle the ideal is about latitude - 15degrees. So a 7/12 in NY works pretty close to ideal. I was surprised at how deviating from South isn't as much of a killer as the tilt. I have a large South facing wall, but it's pretty bad compared to rotating a roof 30degrees from South.
If you're in NY, look into solar again. It's way down as I mentioned in an earlier post. NY now allows leasing.

Go to: Solar Radiation Data Manual for Flat-Plate and Concentrating Collectors and find your state and closest city. The data will give you information on angles and you can see the amount of energy received for the angle vs time of year, etc. Very helpful.

paul

 

[rsewill]

Of Course, If you want to wait a little. Solar may be a thing of the past. There have been amazing advances in free energy lately and it is getting to the mass manufacturing stage very soon.
http://pesn.com/2012/03/16/9602059_Final_Update_on_South_African_Fuel-Free_Generator_Before/

Cheers

Must be one of those motors that run off the neutral(?) leg.

 

[moeh1]

Thanks Paul and Nortrac
Solarmetric had a nice aerial view locator to give me the orientation on the barn (157 degrees). Then I when to the city / state data and guessed on roof pitch to get the annual solar radiation I am near enough to the sweet spot that the angle doesn't seem to be a big factor. I took that answer per sq meter and applied an efficiency factor for the panels to the 1/2 roof area on the sunny side. The 17% efficient panels are actually pretty close to my average electric usage that I have in mind. The 13% panels are cheaper but not enough to offset the gain here. Did I do the correct steps above? Miss anything?

 

[Alien]

Plenty of interesting info on this forum
Wind and solar power - Energy Matters Forum

 

[techman]

Marty:

As an important step, google and go to pvwatts. It is a DOE site and will give you a very accurate estimate of your power generation expectations. It will take into account your location, efficiencies and other factors and give you an estimate of monthly potput.

paul

 

[dynasim]

Myth #2: Manufacturing solar panels creates pollution and uses more energy than the panels can generate over their lifetimes. Most solar panels pay back the energy used to make them in about one year. And with the panels generally lasting 30 years, they producing free and clean electricity for 29 of those years.

Solar-panel manufacturing is regulated by safety and pollution control standards, and it does create unwanted byproducts. But for each kilowatt generated by solar power rather than fossil fuels, the Earth avoids 9 kg of sulfuric oxide, 16 kg of nitrous oxide, and between 600 and 2,300 kg of carbon dioxide each year.

This is from post 59 in this link

So, Rob knows the manufacturing process for PV cells. He also has a secret recipe for creating cells using ~ 2kwhrs per watt of rated power production.

This would lead to a cell cost of ~$0.40/ watt. This is a conservative numbers since the manufacturing of such devices could be automated if sold on a large scale. At this cost level, the electricity they produced would be cheaper than coal and nuclear power.

If he has such a recipe, I suggest he share it with me, and we will both become billionaires, and can cover the state of Nevada with solar cells. If this is true, I will quit my job, and pursue this for the rest of my life.

The fact that such material is seriously quoted by the pursuers of the progress movement is astounding, particularly when it the pusher claims himself to be an expert in such things.

I don't think I will be quitting my job anytime soon.

Chris

 

[dynasim]

I should add that if cells were at 40c/watt, they wouldn't need to be subsidized.

Chris

 

[dynasim]

Maybe I should predict the response:

The big oil companies know how to build them that cheap, but won't let the public know how to do it.

chris

 

[LD1]

Marty:

As an important step, google and go to pvwatts. It is a DOE site and will give you a very accurate estimate of your power generation expectations. It will take into account your location, efficiencies and other factors and give you an estimate of monthly potput.

paul

I e-mailed my state DOE about some incentives and stuff, and they linked me to that site as well.

According to it, with my 11cent per kwh rate, a 5kw rated system is only going to save me $619/year. And at ~$15k to install ($3/watt) payback is going to be well over 20 years

And thats probabally a pretty realistic figure. They break it down by month. And according to Rob-d's chart, it appears his 6.4kw system is on pace to do 600-700kwh this month. And the pvwatts site lists a 5kw system producing 507kwh for march. So thats probabally pretty close to real world #'s.

Not sure how much location changes it, but If I use a 6.4kw system like rob's, it is showing 648kwh for march.

Glad I found that site with some realistic #'s. Because a novice like me is looking at a 5kw system and thinking it "should" be capable of ~1500kwh or so a month. thats 5kwh x 10hrs/day x 30 days. Obviously in optimal conditions. I didnt realize the inefficiencies were that high. Cause pvwatts says in the peak summer months, a 5kwh system is only making 633kwh.

Even if my electric coop did net metering, I doubt it would matter much on a system that small. and at $15k, even if I take 30% off for the credit, I am still looking at 10k+. And that is still almost a 20 year payback time.

It just isnt there for me yet.

 

[MotorSeven]

I looked hard at solar over 2 years ago. A grid tied system was $28K then. The same system now is about $19K and I am again considering it since my power company is offering a buy back incentive that is very attractive.

Backwoods Solar has a Grid Tie calculator based on your location which factors in incentives:
Backwoods Solar Electric Systems

Click on the blue "Grid tie sizing calculator"

 

[techman]

Here are a few shots of what I put in.

Also keep in mind you also make money selling renewable energy credits.

paul

 

[Rob-D]

This is from post 59 in this link

So, Rob knows the manufacturing process for PV cells. He also has a secret recipe for creating cells using ~ 2kwhrs per watt of rated power production.

This would lead to a cell cost of ~$0.40/ watt. This is a conservative numbers since the manufacturing of such devices could be automated if sold on a large scale. At this cost level, the electricity they produced would be cheaper than coal and nuclear power.

If he has such a recipe, I suggest he share it with me, and we will both become billionaires, and can cover the state of Nevada with solar cells. If this is true, I will quit my job, and pursue this for the rest of my life.

The fact that such material is seriously quoted by the pursuers of the progress movement is astounding, particularly when it the pusher claims himself to be an expert in such things.

I don't think I will be quitting my job anytime soon.

Chris

I'd like to see the math behind your assumptions.

Rob

 

[NorTracNY]

I e-mailed my state DOE about some incentives and stuff, and they linked me to that site as well.

According to it, with my 11cent per kwh rate, a 5kw rated system is only going to save me $619/year. And at ~$15k to install ($3/watt) payback is going to be well over 20 years

And thats probabally a pretty realistic figure. They break it down by month. And according to Rob-d's chart, it appears his 6.4kw system is on pace to do 600-700kwh this month. And the pvwatts site lists a 5kw system producing 507kwh for march. So thats probabally pretty close to real world #'s.

Not sure how much location changes it, but If I use a 6.4kw system like rob's, it is showing 648kwh for march.

Glad I found that site with some realistic #'s. Because a novice like me is looking at a 5kw system and thinking it "should" be capable of ~1500kwh or so a month. thats 5kwh x 10hrs/day x 30 days. Obviously in optimal conditions. I didnt realize the inefficiencies were that high. Cause pvwatts says in the peak summer months, a 5kwh system is only making 633kwh.

Even if my electric coop did net metering, I doubt it would matter much on a system that small. and at $15k, even if I take 30% off for the credit, I am still looking at 10k+. And that is still almost a 20 year payback time.

It just isnt there for me yet.

You're probably right. I found that it was most cost efficient to buy a system that was going to just cover my yearly needs, unless your yearly needs mean a system which exceeded the maximum residential rebates. For my the payback was going to be about 15 years, until soooo many people took NY up on the rebate that they lowered it. This is all with Net-metering. I don't see how you could get a reasonable payback without net-metering. For me, it was the new leasing that made this a great deal.