1920's Farm house re-wire, need some input

[Verticaltrx]

I'm getting ready to do a complete rewire on our 'new' home and had a few questions for some of the more electrical savvy folks on here. I'll start by saying that I am a General Contractor and have a decent bit of electrical experience, but it's been years since I've done a re-wire so I'm sure a lot has changed since then.

Little info on the house: 2000sf 1.5 story, built in late 1920's. Wiring has been 'added' through the years with the oldest being the old fabric covered romex, newest looks to be 15-20yrs old. Some of the wiring terrifies me, I shut the main off whenever I'm not there. A majority of the connections are not in boxes and consist of two wire twisted together with electrical tape (no wire nuts). I could go on and on with the electrical horror's I've found. Anyways, the house has one bathroom and oil and wood heat. No AC unit and no plans for one. Has an electric range and electric hot water. So not a huge amount of electrical load and don't have plans for any more.


With that said, the house only has a 100amp service coming in now. It has a almost new 100 amp breaker box, which I wouldn't mind re-using, but I'm not sure if 100 amps is enough. I guess my first question is should I upgrade to 200 amp service at this point?

Second, shared neutral circuits. I'm a fan of them since it really allows you to clean up the wiring, but I've also heard of some drawbacks. What's the story on these nowadays?

What's the best way to group devices together on a given circuit? My feeling is put lights on one for a given area and outlets on another. How many rooms is it ok to group the lights together in? How many outlets? Is is still okay to use one GFCI circuit for both the kitchen and bath?

Lastly, what is the best way to cut in new boxes into plaster walls? There are a couple places I'd like to add outlets, but don't want to make a mess out of the walls. Other options for outlets besides going in the walls?


I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get into the project but those are the first that come to mind. Thanks in advance. :thumbsup:

 

[chucko]

I would say go with a 200 amp box. The number of things on each can vary depending on draw and local codes you really need to get or look at a code book if rewireing bring it up to code

 

[creekbend]

I would recommend a 200 amp service. You will have room for additional breakers for circuits in the future if you want to add another circuit. Plus, you mentioned the old Grey romex. I would definitely replace all the 12 and 14 quage wiring in the beginning and go from there. You did not mention it, but if there is any aluminum wiring present in the house or outbuildings, I would suggest that you replace aluminum with copper.

 

[creekbend]

I would recommend a 200 amp service. You will have room for additional breakers for circuits in the future if you want to add another circuit. Plus, you mentioned the old Grey romex. I would definitely replace all the 12 and 14 quage wiring in the beginning and go from there. You did not mention it, but if there is any aluminum wiring present in the house or outbuildings, I would suggest that you replace aluminum with copper.

I forgot to ask. Since it is an older structure, does it have fuses or breakers? If it has fuses instead of breakers, I would replace them right away.

 

[Verticaltrx]

Thanks for the quick responses. I will be replacing 100% of the wire in the house so that shouldn't be an issue. I like to use 12ga wire for lights, outlets, etc regardless if they are 15 or 20 amp.

 

[creekbend]

I forgot to ask. Since it is an older structure, does it have fuses or breakers? If it has fuses instead of breakers, I would replace them right away.

Sorry. I just reread your thread and saw where you mentioned the almost new breaker box. That answered my question. I'm sorry-it has been a tiring day. I must be less alert than I initially thought. Thanks.

 

[billybobjimmyjoejack]

If you are replacing all of the wire in the house you should use the correct size wire for each circuit. If you upgrade the service panel you will most likely need to upgrade the incoming feed wire and the meter base to handle the extra amperage. If the walls are plaster with wood lath and not sheet rock it will be difficult but not impossible. You can use a "cut in" box for this application and you might be able to run your wires under the house and back to the main panel. The new oscillating multi-tools would work very well for making these holes. If the walls are thin coat plaster over a sheet rock type material or regular sheet rock you would use the same "cut in" box and just cut the hole with a "keyhole" saw.

 

[Ranger Rick]

Lastly, what is the best way to cut in new boxes into plaster walls? There are a couple places I'd like to add outlets, but don't want to make a mess out of the walls. Other options for outlets besides going in the walls?

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get into the project but those are the first that come to mind. Thanks in advance. :thumbsup:

I also have been remodeling a 1920's house with plaster walls and researched how to cut holes in plaster wall when my HVAC man butchered the walls with a sawsall cutting holes for new vents. Any way what I found out is a Multitool is what you need. The have a carbide coated blade that cuts through the plaster and a plunge saw blade to cut through the lath. They oscillate at a high speed so they do not shake the lath apart like a sawsall does. I bought the Bosch from home depot to cut the rest of the holes we needed and have used it to cut holes for a new circuit of outlets that I added. It worked great. I just read a review last night that said their blades hold up for more cuts then most of the others. Good luck on your project. Rick

 

[Tractor Seabee]

You really sound like you need some professional electrician advice. There are too many code nuances to try and design your system via this forum. If this is where you live and you have a shop I would 100% use a 200A panel. Over time you will add more circuits, guaranteed. They are cheap at the big box stores and you only buy as many breakers you need. They also have a starter kit that saves much over the indivdual items pieced out. There are some good DIY manuals at the big box stores also. Plus sometimes they have sales people who do know something. I have a few code related questions I know the answers to that I throw at them before relying on their knowledge base. Every 3 years they revise the codes and there are constant upgrades. Spend the money to get good tools especially 1/2 drill motor, 3/4 and 1" augers. You will waste a lot of time using little stuff. For a remodel like you are doing you need an auger with a 5' shank, they are flexible and will reach the double plate above or below from a 48" high switch box so you don't have to cut out the wall and they have a loop on the end to attach the wire and pull it through. I also use some light jack chain to drop down from the attic and fish it with a wire at the box location. There are old work cut in boxes that make remodel work easy. I do not reccommend using 3 wire cable for common neutral. Now you have to use a double pole breaker so one circuit tripping cuts off the companion circuit also. If you have to trouble shoot you will quickly see why I say this. Does't save that much money. Modern electronics plugged in prefer seperated circuits to eliminate feed back problems over the neutral. Do not forget about the rules for GFCIs and Arc Fault circuit breakers. Never put a GFCI in an outdoor exposed box.

Are you getting a permit? Some inspectors are really hard on DIY projects when they find numerous code issues on inspections, other are very helpful. You won't know until they inspect. Do it per code and they will recognize your quality work and breeze through the inspection.

Am I an electrician; no, but have done a lot of remodel, upgrade, and new work and stay up on code issues. I only get a permit when forced to do so.

 

[nwngunner]

First off welcome to a living nightmare. I would go 200 amp main service. So you have the option later on to add more. Now, you will more then likely have to have a new meter and main service coming in. You can use Alum triplex for this but has to be 0000 for 200amp. It is much cheaper to get alum triplex how ever most big box stores dont carry triplex in that size. They want you to buy their 000 copper and have to buy 3 times of distance of it.
I am putting new service in to my house, here in iowa you have to have a lisenced electrical contractor before the power company in my area will even put a new meter in. They also want a disconnect box out side, they are expensive as well. I am having to do a double disconnect box one size for my shop 150amp main, one for my house 200 amp.

Being that you may end up redoing the main service, you then have to pull a permit, which in iowa requires three inspections. One at main service install , 2 at rough in before drywall is up, 3rd is after your all done.

All of your outlets will have to be the new tamper resistant. Also code here requires an outlet at every outside door. The outlets have to be in a sealed weather box, and have a wr "weather resistant" tr "tamper resistant" gfci.

I am not sure how many outlets can be on the same circut, how ever i do know you have to have outlets every 6 feet. How ever i think that applies to new construction only.

Any outlets with in 6 feet of water have to either be gfci outlets or be on an gfci breaker. Also any basement out lets have to be gfci as well. In my basement, i have a sump. That does not have to be gfci, requires a single uni outlet. Same if you have any freezers. Otherwise any other outlets have to be gfci. All bedroom outlets have to be arc fault.

I hate it as well where you are required to get all of this expensive crap, how ever like the tamper resistant outlets are required now. If you ever sell the house and some one gets shocked or electrocuted from putting something other then a plugin, in the outlet you are liable.
Gfci outlets are EXPENSIVE, arcfault breakers are EXPENSIVE shop around and check ebay.

Also in your basement if you have a basement, any wire hanging below the floor trusses has to be in conduit. So every where you can drill though and keep ever thing up out of reach.


Also more then likely, if you are forced to get a permit, expect the tax officer to be out to check out your house. Only reason i know what i do at this point is i have had an electrician out to do a ton of work on the farm and in two houses, i have asked questions and payed attention.

All i have to say is good luck and be safe.

 

[mjncad]

First off, go with a 200 AMP service as others have stated.

Second, get a code book if you can afford it, otherwise get a code cheater book that breaks down the most used sections of the NEC into understandable English.

Third, if you are still in doubt, get a professional to do the work, or see if you can work out a deal with an electrician to be his/her gofer/grunt so you can learn by watching.

There is no need to use #12 AWG for lighting circuits, especially with the trend towards CFL's and LED's. Unless you've got enough incandescent bulbs to light up Yankee stadium, you're wasting your money using #12 AWG for lighting.

I can't imagine not having AC in a humid climate; but that's your choice.

 

[nwngunner]

First off, go with a 200 AMP service as others have stated.

Second, get a code book if you can afford it, otherwise get a code cheater book that breaks down the most used sections of the NEC into understandable English.

Third, if you are still in doubt, get a professional to do the work, or see if you can work out a deal with an electrician to be his/her gofer/grunt so you can learn by watching.

There is no need to use #12 AWG for lighting circuits, especially with the trend towards CFL's and LED's. Unless you've got enough incandescent bulbs to light up Yankee stadium, you're wasting your money using #12 AWG for lighting.

I can't imagine not having AC in a humid climate; but that's your choice.

The reason for no ac is i am betting he has fuel oil or coal boiler heat. I am sure the house has no ducting in it.

 

[Verticaltrx]

Wow, thanks for the plethora of info so quick. Let me add to a few things that were brought up. First the AC, we live at a little over 2000' elevation and it doesn't get that humid. This past summer we used the AC in our current house a grand total of 4 days. The new house as someone mentioned, has no duct work and that isn't something I want to get into right now. We'll have a few ceiling fans and call it good.

As for all the code and inspection stuff, this is the reasons why I'm an Agricultural construction contractor, lol. I hate how tough residential code and inspection has gotten so luckily in my line of work I don't have to deal with much of that. I'm going to go about this re-wire in one of two ways. First would be pull all the necessary permits, get a new 200 amp service put in and try to do everything to code. Could be a big hassle, lots of money and make me do things that really I don't need or want to do (outlets all over the place, etc). Second would be work with the 100 amp service I have and just rewire a few circuits at a time until it's done. While technically I might need a permit for that, I wouldn't feel as bad about not getting one. I'll also add that we plan on living here pretty well the rest of our lives, so any resale issues aren't at the top of my priority. I am also 100% sure that anything I do will be safe and a huge improvement over what's there.


As for my experience in electrical work, about 10yrs ago I worked for my uncle who owns a large Electrical/HVAC firm in Illinois. I helped do plenty of rewires, so I know the tricks and techniques and have many of the specialty tools required as well. I also got to do a fair bit of new construction electrical (both residential and commercial), installed numerous heat pumps and furnaces and spent a few months helping run his directional boring rig. I'm 100% confident in my ability to safely do this project, just trying to decide how to go about it and refresh my memory along the way. I probably do need to pick up a new edition of the code book as I'm sure a lot has changed in the last 10 years. My uncle always taught me to use 12ga wire instead of 14 so if you wanted to change a circuit or upgrade something later you wouldn't have to pull new wire. Again, 10 years ago the price of copper wasn't through the roof, so the cost of doing that wasn't so great.


Good info on the oscillating mulit-tool, definitely something I'll be looking into. :thumbsup:


I'll also add that I'm planning to eventually run a second service (200 amp) to run the farm buildings (mainly shop and barn.) So none of that will draw off the house service.


I guess what most of this boils down to is the dilemma of getting the inspections done and doing it all to code vs. working with what I have and just making sure it's safe.

Thanks for all the great advice so far, keep it coming.

 

[nwngunner]

Being you are wanting to run 200 amp to the barns and shop i would get a double disconnect box. So you can shut down the shop from the house and vice versa. For 200amp going to take a new meter might as well do 200 amp in the house.

 

[bucktaker]

First off draw a schematic of what you want to end up with, include lighting, number of outlets, range, dryers,

Replace your service box with a 200 amp panel, it may be easier to rewire with new circuits and more lightly loaded breakers than run wire all over the place to tie circuits on, you can upgrade the service later if you need to.
Add some window ac outlets since you are not planning on central AC Your needs may change as you age and it would be nice to have Ac in the bedroom or living room.
You can save money by using 14 wire for lighting as you typically dont gang multiple room on lighting circuits.

Spend your money wisely now and save headaches later on

 

[Verticaltrx]

Being you are wanting to run 200 amp to the barns and shop i would get a double disconnect box. So you can shut down the shop from the house and vice versa. For 200amp going to take a new meter might as well do 200 amp in the house.

Maybe I misspoke on how I was planning to do that. The service for the farm will be completely separate, it'll actually be headed the opposite direction from the house. I only threw that info in so people wouldn't think I'd also be powering outbuildings off the house.

First off draw a schematic of what you want to end up with, include lighting, number of outlets, range, dryers,

Replace your service box with a 200 amp panel, it may be easier to rewire with new circuits and more lightly loaded breakers than run wire all over the place to tie circuits on, you can upgrade the service later if you need to.
Add some window ac outlets since you are not planning on central AC Your needs may change as you age and it would be nice to have Ac in the bedroom or living room.
You can save money by using 14 wire for lighting as you typically dont gang multiple room on lighting circuits.

Spend your money wisely now and save headaches later on

So are you saying buy a 200 amp breaker box but leave the service at 100 amps for now? That might be an option, but don't most of the newer 200 amp boxes have one large integrated main breaker? Having a 200 amp breaker on a 100 amp service seems like a big no no to me. Other ways to get around that?

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Now with more info to work with: Use your 100A entrance for now. If you max it out over time (actually available breaker spaces (not divisified ampacity) do what I did once; Put in the new service at 200A and provide a 100A breaker and feeder to the existing panel and then proceed to put new circuits into the new one. Another one I did was add a 100A paneloff the 200A for regular circuits, another 100A panel only for baseboard electric heat and window ACs, and another 100A Panel in the garage. All legal based on the diversity factors allowed in the residential code.

 

[Verticaltrx]

Now with more info to work with: Use your 100A entrance for now. If you max it out over time (actually available breaker spaces (not divisified ampacity) do what I did once; Put in the new service at 200A and provide a 100A breaker and feeder to the existing panel and then proceed to put new circuits into the new one. Another one I did was add a 100A paneloff the 200A for regular circuits, another 100A panel only for baseboard electric heat and window ACs, and another 100A Panel in the garage. All legal based on the diversity factors allowed in the residential code.

Yet another thing I hadn't thought of, but a great idea.


Question for those that mentioned the oscillating multi-tool for plaster: Specifically what type of blade/attachment did you use? Different one for the plaster vs lath? I was at Lowes today and took a look at the different models they had. Interesting little tool, something I'd never seen before.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Plaster is very abasive, if it is plaster on metal lath it is worse. Use the diamond embedded one made for ceramic tile. Remember, all old plaster has asbestos fiber in it unless it is old enough to be reinforced with horse hair, nuff said. There are ways to protect yourself, need a HEPA vaccum to collect and clean up the fine dust laden with fibers. Research it on the web, too complicated for this forum.

 

[mjncad]

The reason for no ac is i am betting he has fuel oil or coal boiler heat. I am sure the house has no ducting in it.

Good point that I hadn't thought of since I'm not big on older houses.

A new 200 AMP service panel is cheap. Putting one in later isn't. Like tractors, go big now, not later.