Generators - Backfeeding - 120V

[Canada_CT230]

Lets start off with the fact that I know BF is illegal. If done with care and a half brain you can do it safely.

Here is my procedure and problem.

1. My generator is 4000W/3000W @ 120V (20A). I have no 220V output.
2. Trees always take out my hydro line and my house is always completely separated from the utility company by downed lines. I am ALWAYS home when using the generator and ALWAYS home when hydro comes to put the lines up. I ALWAYS shut down the generator when hydro arrrives on scene (even when using cords).
3. I have a pad lock lug on my main 200 AMP breaker.
4. I turn ALL breakers off and lock out the 200A breaker. I then hook up the generator, start and turn the individual circuits on one at a time.
5. I get 1/2 my panel powered and get some lights, etc working.


My question is... How can I get 120V on the other half of my panel?

Can I run a second power line from the generator to another outlet that is on the other side of the panel?

I do not need nor want to run any 220V appliances. Those breakers remain off.

The only things that I need to run are the fridge, freezer (small), LCD TV/lights and sump pump. The generator runs all this fine but I hate running 6 million cords in/out of the house.

Currently I have many rooms that are on the other half of the panel and I get no power. I would like to have an outlet or light in those rooms.

Ideas?

 

[Egon]

Can I run a second power line from the generator to another outlet that is on the other side of the panel?
/QUOTE]

Yes you can. That will also give you 220.

Note: I am not an electrician but I do have two double ended male prong cords that are maybe one foot long hanging in the basement.

 

[George2615]

Best way would be to sell your 4000W 120V Generator and get one that does 220V. Then you could disconnect your main breaker coming from the street and back feed power from the new Generator through a 220V breaker in your panel. The breaker you feed through would need to be 30 or 40A depending on what the new generator can put out. You need 2 - 120V feeds with different phases and you can't get that from your current unit. For running a fridge and freezer you'll need about a 6-8K generator to handle the surge when the compressor kicks in. Anything smaller and you'll see quite a voltage drop. I run a 10KW welder / generator at my place when power goes out. It does my entire house including the 220V things such as my well pump, air compressor, A/C, and dryer.
If you don't need to run 220V equipment and your current generator would handle the load you could back feed the other 120V side from another outlet on the generator.

 

[Canada_CT230]

I don't nor want 220V.

I alternate the fridge/freezer. The gen runs the fridge, sump and lights/tv just fine.

But I would like some lights upstairs.

 

[davedj1]

another option may be to move a breaker or two (the ones for upstairs) to the side of the panel you are powering.

 

[retiredmgn]

Some study is in order here. If you observe your panel, 220 volt breakers are 'side by each'. The voltage in a panel is staggered. There is 120 volts on each leg and each 'place' to plug in a breaker will supply 120 volts. 220 volt breakers connect both 120 volt legs to create 220 volts.
What you are describing is you have energized one 'leg' of your panel. Some of your breakers are on this engerized leg, some are not.
While this stuff is not rocket science it should be noted homeowner insurance will not cover home owner mistakes with wiring - hence licensed electricians.
This from a guy who wired up his generator at 5am and forgot to connect the neutral to the bus bar. Burned up several plug in strips (I mean like black scorching of the floor) in the 30 seconds it took to connect the dots... why are the light bulbs burning so brightly???
I'm in the process of 'doing it right'.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Yes you can. That will also give you 220.

Only if your two generators happen to be exactly 180 degrees out of phase, which is so unlikely as to be essentially impossible.

Running two generators the way you are proposing is dangerous. It is very common to have 120 V circuits on opposite phases share a neutral. This relies on the assumption that the circuits are out of phase to avoid overloading the neutral. The way you are talking about could overload the neutral, which has no breaker, so you would first become aware that the neutral was overloaded when the insulation melted and the wire caught fire. Not what you want happening in the middle of an ice storm.

 

[Egon]

Only if your two generators happen to be exactly 180 degrees out of phase, which is so unlikely as to be essentially impossible.

/QUOTE]

Who said anything about two generators. ??

For the OP running 110 to both sides of the panel will power all circuits as well as give 220.:thumbsup:

Note: I still arn't an elecrician.

 

[beeforty]

I would recommend a larger gen that has 220. You may not want 220 but a bigger generator will give you better service. Also what I did was put a 30 amp breaker feeding a sub panel. In the subpanel I have my fridge, freezer, heat system and enough lights up and downstairs to get around. In between the main and subpanel is a DPDT (double pole double throw) switch that fits in a 4" sq box. My gen feeds one side, the power company feed the other. NO BACK FEEDING possible:thumbsup: When the power comes back on there are enough gadgets to notify me with beeps and flashing lights to go out and shut off the generator and flip the switch back to the power co. Unfortunately my well is too far away so I have a separate genearotr for that.

 

[Willl]

That will also give you 220.

I don't think so.

(( It's the SAME hot leg. ))

 

[hosspuller]

Can I run a second power line from the generator to another outlet that is on the other side of the panel?
/QUOTE]

Yes you can. That will also give you 220.

QUOTE]

You can ... but you will not get 220 volts. Just 120 volts to appliances needing 220... burning their motors out from low voltage (if your genset can supply the power)

 

[JB4310]

Can I run a second power line from the generator to another outlet that is on the other side of the panel?
/QUOTE]

Yes you can. That will also give you 220.

QUOTE]

You can ... but you will not get 220 volts. Just 120 volts to appliances needing 220... burning their motors out from low voltage (if your genset can supply the power)

No it wont be 220, it would be 2 separate 110/120's

He's not gonna burn anything out, he said he turns the breakers off, and doesn't need 220, (have to leave the 220 breakers off) just wants power to the other side of the panel.

I don't know of any reason he couldn't do 2 male/male jumpers? to get 120 to both sides of the panel.

I think it should accomplish what he's after, regardless of any and all safety warnings.

EDIT: I did just think of one potential problem. Some circuits share neutrals, (2 circuits share 1 neutral) my house has several sets of these. It's able to be done because the two circuits are on opposite phases so the neutral can handle it due to the alternating current (something like that) so if you had those type of shared neutral circuits, you could overheat the white wire.

So if you had two 20 amp circuits that shared a neutral you could only draw 20 amps total between the 2 of them, so you did not overload the white neutral wire.

I'm definitely over my head here so if I'm wrong someone correct me.

JB

 

[schmism]

Only if your two generators happen to be exactly 180 degrees out of phase, which is so unlikely as to be essentially impossible..

+1

THe only way you can have 2 generators supply the same supply, is if the frequency of both gen heds is matched.

Honda (with the little EU2000i) units do this with the special cross over cable that lets the electronic inverters match up the frequency of the output correctly.

In short, you have no way to ensure the phasing matches so dont do it.

backfeeding 220v from a 220v outlet on a single genset will work.

 

[handirifle]

OK I am not an electrician either, but I have read, either on this forum, or another one, somewhere, that even if you turn off your main breakers, there is a chance of power backfeeding into the system, through the ground.

Like I said, this isn't my opinion, but one I have read before. IF this is true, all of the above comments are meaningless, cause it's illegal. Can it backfeed through the ground? I think the isse came up because someone mentioned that in the event something shorted to ground in your house, and the power guys were working on the ground circuit, that could get hurt.

If not, I'd really like to know what the safe way to hook up a generator is, besides running everything off an extension cord.

 

[rtimgray]

On the diagram showing how to connect a transfer switch legally in our state (KY), it shows the utility power coming in to one set of lugs, auxiliary power coming in to the other set of lugs, and the set of hots coming from the switch going to the panel. These are all separate and can only be connected by changing the position of the switch, thus avoiding the chance of backfeeding the utility power.

However, all of the neutrals from the utility, auxiliary, and panelboard are all on the same lugset, as well as the ground from the panelboard. So it doesn't appear (to me) that there is an opportunity for the utility to be backfed from the ground or neutral (our neutrals and grounds are bonded in the panels - I don't know if this is different in different areas).

I tried to upload the diagram showing this (a .tif) but I get a "invalid file" error.

 

[JB4310]

I asked some electric utility workers about the back feeding from the ground and they said it wouldn't happen, since just about every pole is grounded.

And as mentioned, all the legit transfer switch don't disconnect the ground/neutral. I have seen some double pole type switches that do, but never in these home generator set ups.

JB.

 

[Canada_CT230]

Forget about 220V...I don't want or need that.

Not using 2 generators either.

Just want the 2 separate 120V to be powered.

A bigger generator would be awesome but can't afford that right now and I have zero expandability in my panel.

 

[Egon]

Yes you can. That will also give you 220.
/QUOTE]

Still trying to get my foot out of my mouth!

Note: Definetly proved I'm not an electrician!!

 

[JB4310]

Forget about 220V...I don't want or need that.

Not using 2 generators either.

Just want the 2 separate 120V to be powered.

A bigger generator would be awesome but can't afford that right now and I have zero expandability in my panel.

Just be careful with those suicide cords. Don't leave them anywhere anyone can have access to them, especially kids. Someone thinking they are just an extension cord could be electrocuted.

I have made them and will use them if necessary, but I just make a short jumper, paint it bright red/orange to alert attention to the fact that it is something different, and keep it in a secure place.

JB.

 

[Canada_CT230]

We are on 17 acres...the nearest neighbor is retired and we have no kids. Unless my dog grows a thumb, she won't be using my very short double ended cord.

I don't believe there is a possibility to backfeed power down the lines with the breaker off. I have seen these new interupts that are just a piece of steel screwed to the cover of your CB panel and it prevents the main breaker from being turned on and allows the BF circuit to then be turned on. If that system is legal...what is the electrical difference to what I am doing?

Generator InterLock Kit