15% ethanol!?!?

[Duffster]

Congressional Budget Office states that cutting carbon emissions by one metric ton via ethanol runs to $754.

To put that number in perspective, the budget gnomes estimate that the price for a ton of carbon under the cap-and-tax program that the House passed last summer would be about $26 in 2019.

CBO is also honest enough to mention that in reality $754 may be purchasing a net carbon emissions increase.

"Because the production of ethanol draws so much energy from coal and natural gas it can be thought of as a method for converting natural gas or coal to a liquid fuel that can be used for transportation." Meanwhile, the assumptions of their model also exclude indirect land-use changes toward energy-intensive crops that also boost overall CO2.

Given these realities, the only mystery is how the Ethanol Industry has managed to produce a wasteful biofuel that no one would willingly buy but has managed to be subsidized over four decades at costs that are higher than anyone ever imagined, since it could never make a profit.

Do you have any proof to back your statemants up?

"Subsidies" gets repeated over and over but do you or any one else have an idea what they really are?

 

[SkyPup]

That is simple, a subsidy is a form of financial assistance paid by the government (USA Taxpayers) to prevent the collapse of an industry (Biofuels) which continuously cannot make a profit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/business/12ethanol.html?_r=1


Ethanol is Truly a Growing Disaster for Greens and NonGreens Alike:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/opinion/28harding.html?scp=9&sq=&st=nyt

 

[Duffster]

That is simple, a subsidy is a form of financial assistance paid by the government (USA Taxpayers) to prevent the collapse of an industry (Biofuels) which continuously cannot make a profit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/business/12ethanol.html?_r=1

Good article. But it is about a company that got to big to fast that hit a extremely volatile energy market and a extremely volatile corn market nearly all at the same time. Doesn't really say anything about the profitability of making ethanol. They failed to mention the company that purchased the ethanol plant pictured, which isn't far from here, is as far as I know is making a profit.

Ethanol is Truly a Growing Disaster for Greens and NonGreens Alike:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/opinion/28harding.html?scp=9&sq=&st=nyt

You did notice this was on the "opinion" page"?

 

[gauthier]

Well,one way the government sponsers ethinal,,is it sponsers ethinal,,isn't it the government that makes it law that we use this stuff??,if that wasn't the case,you wouldn't see ethinal sold in most states.

 

[schmism]

I noticed MTBE mentioned a number of times.

NOTE that MTBE is no longer in use and outright band by law in 25 states.

In 2000, the EPA drafted plans to phase out the use of MTBE nationwide over four years.

 

[SkyPup]

They failed to mention the company that purchased the ethanol plant pictured, which isn't far from here, is as far as I know is making a profit.

You did notice this was on the "opinion" page"?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but we all know for a fact that without the federal government mandated entitlements and subsidies, none would be in business at all, except for Jack Daniels, Wild Turkey, Jim Beam, etc.......

 

[Duffster]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but we all know for a fact that without the federal government mandated entitlements and subsidies, none would be in business at all, except for Jack Daniels, Wild Turkey, Jim Beam, etc.......

IIRC Ethanol was used around here long before it was mandated which would make your claimed "fact" just opinion.

Was anyone crying about the MTBE companies being subsidized?

Mandated use is a far cry from a subsidy. I have to have auto insurance, does that mean the insurance companies are subsidized? I don't think so.

 

[SkyPup]

IIRC Ethanol was used around here long before it was mandated which would make your claimed "fact" just opinion.

I have to have auto insurance, does that mean the insurance companies are subsidized? I don't think so.

Ethanol causes the deaths of tens of thousands of drivers as well as the loss of tens of billions of dollars in medical and property damage each year, so I guess you could easily say that Ethanol subsidizes the insurance industry.....

 

[clemsonfor]

If that mossroad guy frequented this forum he would have shut yall down by now. Im into politics myself but its no fun when a serious debate turns to this and those who have somehow sequestered power lock it and delete posts. This was stated on how ethonol harms or gums up you stuff, people where posting experience and facts, hate to see that get stopped due to this talk on the ethics of ethonol, you can find proof on each side of the debate all day long.

 

[rjkobbeman]

My 2008 Mercury Sable has a very plain E85 with the red circle and sash right on the fuel tank cap. If we talked the truth about the ethanol mandates, this would be a political thread!:mur:

+1

My 2010 Ford Edge has the same E85 inside a red circle and a slash on the gas cap.

+1 on the political talk too. It comes to no surprise to me that the pro-corn-ethanol-bio-diesel-you-name-it group is always tied to the industry in one way or another.

 

[SkyPup]

I'm fortunate enough to have a station that sells non-oxygenated gas in my town. That's the only stuff that goes in my chainsaw, mowers, motorcycle and boat. I've had the repair bills from ethanol in the past, and would rather not go there anymore. To me, the added cost of non-oxy is worth it.

About the only places you can purchase non ethanol adulterated fuel is at marine fuel pumps and race tracks.

I get 100% of all my racing fuel in 55 gallon drums straight from the refinery in Texas without any ethanol adulteration whatsoever.

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/

They do make some great methanol race fuel too though.

 

[Duffster]

Ethanol causes the deaths of tens of thousands of drivers as well as the loss of tens of billions of dollars in medical and property damage each year, so I guess you could easily say that Ethanol subsidizes the insurance industry.....

I guess the fiction continues.......

 

[2manyrocks]

I guess they could make it 100% ethanol and just add flavoring, do away with gas stations and just sell it through the state run ABC stores.

 

[dmccarty]

I guess they could make it 100% ethanol and just add flavoring, do away with gas stations and just sell it through the state run ABC stores.

Shhhh! Be quiet! Don't give them any ideas! The ABC stores in NC have been having all sorts of problems with bribes and lost money. Lordy don't make me have to buy fuel for my truck and tractor from them! :laughing:

Children of the Corn - David Freddoso - National Review Online

Rice University analysis questions U.S. ethanol subsidies | OregonLive.com

To pull a qoute from the last link,
"In 2008, the U.S. government spent $4 billion on biofuels subsidies, replacing about 2 percent of the U.S. gasoline supply, according to the Baker Institute report, "Fundamentals of a Sustainable U.S. Biofuels Policy." The average cost to the taxpayer was about $82 a barrel, or $1.95 a gallon."

Either the WSJ or Progressive Farmer had an article a while back about farmers pulling marginal land from conservation programs to grow corn to make Ethanol. The price of corn was so high because of Ethanol demand that even poor land was useful for farming again. Flip side was that this land had been put aside to improve water and wildlife habitat.

Later,
Dan

 

[Duffster]

Shhhh! Be quiet! Don't give them any ideas! The ABC stores in NC have been having all sorts of problems with bribes and lost money. Lordy don't make me have to buy fuel for my truck and tractor from them! :laughing:

Children of the Corn - David Freddoso - National Review Online

Rice University analysis questions U.S. ethanol subsidies | OregonLive.com

To pull a qoute from the last link,
"In 2008, the U.S. government spent $4 billion on biofuels subsidies, replacing about 2 percent of the U.S. gasoline supply, according to the Baker Institute report, "Fundamentals of a Sustainable U.S. Biofuels Policy." The average cost to the taxpayer was about $82 a barrel, or $1.95 a gallon."

Either the WSJ or Progressive Farmer had an article a while back about farmers pulling marginal land from conservation programs to grow corn to make Ethanol. The price of corn was so high because of Ethanol demand that even poor land was useful for farming again. Flip side was that this land had been put aside to improve water and wildlife habitat.

Later,
Dan

$4 billion in subsidises to make 9 billion gallons of ethanol = $1.95/gallon.

 

[ModMech]

IIRC Ethanol was used around here long before it was mandated which would make your claimed "fact" just opinion.

Mandated use is a far cry from a subsidy. I have to have auto insurance, does that mean the insurance companies are subsidized? I don't think so.

That was in response to the following quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyPup
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but we all know for a fact that without the federal government mandated entitlements and subsidies, none would be in business at all, except for Jack Daniels, Wild Turkey, Jim Beam, etc.......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice it was the "mandated entitlement" and not mandated USE or production that was stated.

The subsidies were in place (state and/or federal) before the fuel was widely available. Ask yourself why? You cannot make a PROFIT producing ethanol for fuel w/o a subsity of some sort. Currently, as best that I can tell, the Federal Ethanol subsidy is $0.50/gallon, states might add more to that and many do. Effectively, the producers get $0.50/gallon (ethanol) more for their product than anyone is willing to pay on the open market.

Why not a $0.50/hour wage subsidy for the rest of us? Because $1 worth of Federal subsidy costs us more than $1 in taxes!

 

[SkyPup]

Isn't Ethanol Lovely????


"For 2005, 240.4 million gallons of ethanol derived from foreign feedstocks are allowed to enter the U.S. from CAFTA countries tariff free, profiting from lower foreign labor and cost and collecting US Federal Subsidies."

"This is more ethanol than, or roughly equal to, the amount produced by farmer-owned ethanol plants in most of the top ethanol producing states in the U.S., including: Nebraska, Kansas, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Missouri and South Dakota."

"Global agribusiness companies have announced plans and have finished construction on ethanol pro-cessing plants in El Salvador, Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago, and Panama. These plants are designed to take advantage of the CAFTA ethanol provisions by importing high water content Brazilian ethanol, dehydrating the ethanol to make it fuel grade and useable in the U.S., and exporting it into the U.S. tariff-free."

"Backed by strong government subsidies, Brazil痴 ethanol production costs are at one-half to two-thirds of those in the U.S."

"By enabling ethanol imports into the U.S., CAFTA undercuts decades of work by farmers, rural communities and billions of dollars in US taxpayer investments in federal and state government programs to build the U.S. ethanol industry. Expansion of ethanol imports through CAFTA and other trade agreements puts U.S. trade policy squarely in conflict with domestic economic and energy policy. The winners in such a system are multinational agribusiness firms, who can play Brazil, Central America and the U.S. against each other to gain cheaper prices for raw materials and larger profits. The losers are U.S. farmers, rural communities and taxpayers who have heavily invested in ethanol as a source of economic development and to provide increased energy independence for the U.S."

 

[FlaDon]

Im not saying its not a law in your state just stating in mine. I thought it was law here to but apparently not cause both in GA and SC around my house you can still find stations that sell pure gas, they generally are the smaller ones that do it to sell to the people that want pur fuel as well as i live and work around Lake J. strom Thurmond, the biggest lake east of the mississippi, so there is quite a bit of boat traffic on it and to it, this draws boaters into these pure fuel stations.

Wrong on your lake sizes.
"At 71,000 acres (287 kmｲ), it is the second-largest artificial lake east of the Mississippi River, behind the Kentucky Lake on the Tennessee River" < Wiki.
And falls well behind our Lake Okeechobee at 1890 kmｲ. Lake O is so big that it is the second largest lake inside the US borders of the lower 48 states.

 

[clemsonfor]

mabe its man made or something, ill check.

 

[Wacky]

My Gosh...I wasn't expecting such a variety of responses!!:laughing: