New Post Frame Building Questions

[RWTschoeke]

Hello all,

I am in the planning stages of a 48x72x14 post frame building which I am hoping to have built this winter. As the process has unfolded, many questions have arisen and I wanted to get the input from some of you, who from what I've read thus far, have vast experiences on this topic, as well as many others.

Some background: The structure will be located on a 10 acre open parcel (of 110) with easy access and the ability to have doors on either end to allow drive through. It will be used primarily for cold storage of a 21' ski boat, 24' pontoon boat, PWC, snowmobile, utility trailer(s), ATVs and dirtbikes, which have now outgrown my 26x36 garage. Reading on this forum has me excited for the eventual purchase of a tractor and implements, which would also need to be stored. Lots of fun to be had on 110 acres.

Some questions:

1. Door location-I was planning on placing a 14x14 door on one end and a 12x12 on the other to allow drive through. Most people place the door directly center, which would leave approx. 16.5' either side on the 14x14 end and 17.5' on the 12x12 end; another guy put his door right up against the sidewall claiming it minimized his unusable storage space. Others offset the doors a little giving greater storage on one side over the other. I can put them anywhere I want since I am working with a custom builder, but I am a leaning towards offsetting both doors a little leaving 9-10' on one of the sides. Most boat trailers are 8.5' wide.

2. Roof insulation-an option to place bird-proof roof insulation (R-6) on the entire roof area to reduce condensation was added. I am definitely placing a vapor barrier prior to the concrete pour, and have ridge venting and 24" vented soffits on sidewalls and gable, so I don't know if I need the roof done. At a later date, however, I may add a wood burner (about 65 acres of hardwoods on the 110) to heat a section of the building and could insulate the sidewalls at that time. Doing the roof after the fact would be more difficult and costly. Option cost=$2200.

3. Building height-From comments I've read, I should never regret having a 14' inside clearance building. What I currently own would easily fit into a 10-12 foot opening, but I do plan on purchasing a CUT (40-50 hp); in addition, I plan to build a mezzanine after a year in the building for upper level storage. That being said, would a 12' building/door be sufficient and perhaps use the cost savings for other options, or increase the square footage? BTW, the bottom chord trusses will be raised above the door opening on the gable end to allow the 14' high door to open into a 14' building. This is not necessary with the 12' door.

4. Truss spacing-My quote has column and truss spacing 8' on center engineered for a snow load of 40 pounds per square foot. Going to 10 foot spacing (same snow load) saves $2200; building would be 70' then. Or go to 80' with no savings-likely additional material cost though. ?Comments?

5. Options-Some options I am likely including are a 8x72 porch running the entire southern length of the building, Poly-Carb eave lighting above the porch and gable ends and wainscoating. I'm not sure if I need the 24" cupolas with weather vanes for $615 each.

So there it is. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Even though there is currently over a foot of snow on the ground, it is acting as an insulating layer to delay ground freezing. I hope to have the final plans for the building by the end of the month and begin construction at the end of January to take advantage of the $3300 winter discount the builder is offering to keep his crew busy.

Pictures will follow.

Thanks,

Rick

 

[Pops15]

Door placement should be determined by how the space is going to be used. If you place the doors off center it may work out better for boat storage. What are the length of your boat trailers?....and how do you plan on parking them? I have a similar building planned but construction will be a few years down the road. I'm going to place my doors 4' from the side. That way I'll have room for storage cabinets and work benches along the entire length of the building. Storage area for the toys will be along the other side with a drive through lane between the cabinets and toys.
If you use a 14' tall door on one end use the same size on the other. Like taller walls you'll never regret having tall doors.

Insulate the roof. Another option is to have your builder install a steel ceiling and blow insulation on top of it. You'll have a lot higher R value plus you'll be heating fewer cubic feet of space with a ceiling. That will get expensive but you won't regret it.
I'd wait on insulating the walls until the electric is done.

GO 14' tall!!!!!! With some pole building packages you actually get 14' 6" ceiling height. The only reason to not go 14' is if you're going 16'!!!!!

Truss and column spacing options are a no brainer......8' OC.

The porch sounds nice but do you need it to be that big? Maybe go 1/3 or 1/2 that long and put the savings towards making the 2nd door bigger.
Cupolas are nice but that price sounds steep.
Not a fan of the poly carb panels.

$3300 winter savings sounds enticing but I'd wait until spring. As soon as the builder clears the snow the ground could start freezing. Working in the cold and snow is a real PITA. I suspect you'll get higher quality workmanship in the spring. If you do build in the winter make sure the building is enclosed before they pour the floor. You'll have problems you don't want if the floor freezes before the concrete cures.
Even if you don't plan on heating the entire building now you should give some thought to putting in some Pex tubing for hydronic heat.
Talk to your insurance company before you get a wood burner. Some insurance companies require approval from the local fire chief and/or building inspector for wood stove installations.
Pops

 

[ToadHill]

Just something to think about, have you thought about a door in the center of one side as well as both ends? I'd also suggest an area with a cement pad that you can work on equipment without laying on the stone or dirt floor. It makes rolling around on a creeper a lot easier, I know if I was to do my building over again the cement pad would be in the plans.

 

[yooperdave]

I offset my 16' wide gable end doors - 14' wall length on 1 side, 18' wall length on the other side of my 48' wide building.

I would go with the 10' bay spacing for economy's sake. Spacing the bays closer will only cost you more money. The structural members should be sized accordingly.

Pay attention to the foundation. What size pads are they providing? How high of soil pressure can you live with? Not knowing anything about your site, I would limit the soil bearing pressure to 3,000 psf.

Are your doors located inside or outside the exterior walls? Why not keep both doors identical? I doubt that it would cost much more.

What kind of rafters is the builder providing? I had my builder change the #2 SPF to #1 SYP at no additional cost, but it greatly increased the capacity of the rafters - I had to design for a 60 psf ground snow load.

Find out location, type, and extent of bracing to be provided. Get a copy of the truss shop drawing to see where they specify the bracing. Most builders just throw the shop drawing away.

Good Luck,

Yooper Dave

 

[theboman]

Make it functionable for you. If you plan on reselling later make it multi-functional. Seeing how it's a post frame building for storage then it's more a matter of budget.

On here the key word is PICTURES. We need pictures as you progress. There are many folks here even smarter than ME! Lots of great input and lessons are inside the titles, use the info wisely. I have learned A LOT!

 

[RWTschoeke]

Thank you to all who shared their experiences and advice. It has provided me with the knowledge and confidence to ask intellligent questions and make sound decisions. After some deliberation, we signed a contract this week and hope to begin digging holes by the end of the month. Some decisions:

1. A 14x14 door will be placed on each end offset so slightly to allow 20' on one side (fits 2 side-by-side boats easily) and 13' on the other. The smaller side will be utilized for mezzanine, workbench and shelving and allow plenty of room for storage of smaller (ATV, UTV, dirtbikes, snowmobile, etc..) items under the mezzanine. The drive thru lane will allow access to either side putting more things readily accessible rather than cramming items in the back on one side.

2. Inside clearance up to 14'6" needed to accomodate door offset to fit under bottom cord trusses. Going up 6" only cost additional $400. 30-4-5 truss rating (#1 SYP) placed 8' OC. Soil bearing pressure <2500 psf.

3. Huge savings from shortening porch from 72' to 24'. Will add options including PolyCarb eave lighting, wainscoating, roof insulation and 2 cupulas.

The ground is not yet frozen due to insulation the snow is providing. Building permit has been issued and construction should start soon.

Pictures will follow.

Rick

 

[Duffster]

Thank you to all who shared their experiences and advice. It has provided me with the knowledge and confidence to ask intellligent questions and make sound decisions. After some deliberation, we signed a contract this week and hope to begin digging holes by the end of the month. Some decisions:

1. A 14x14 door will be placed on each end offset so slightly to allow 20' on one side (fits 2 side-by-side boats easily) and 13' on the other. The smaller side will be utilized for mezzanine, workbench and shelving and allow plenty of room for storage of smaller (ATV, UTV, dirtbikes, snowmobile, etc..) items under the mezzanine. The drive thru lane will allow access to either side putting more things readily accessible rather than cramming items in the back on one side.

2. Inside clearance up to 14'6" needed to accomodate door offset to fit under bottom cord trusses. Going up 6" only cost additional $400. 30-4-5 truss rating (#1 SYP) placed 8' OC. Soil bearing pressure <2500 psf.

3. Huge savings from shortening porch from 72' to 24'. Will add options including PolyCarb eave lighting, wainscoating, roof insulation and 2 cupulas.

The ground is not yet frozen due to insulation the snow is providing. Building permit has been issued and construction should start soon.

Pictures will follow.

Rick

I wouldn't put a door on each end, it "wastes" alot of space.

I would place the second door on a sidewall approx. one third the length from the end with the other door.

 

[matt_isserstedt]

Drive through is interesting, but becomes a PITA when it comes to parking.

For example, to keep the drive-thru working, the center "lane" must be kept free at all times. So this means either parallel parking to the lane (which will eventually block some piece of equipment behind it), or else trying to swivel trailers 90 degrees inside. Think about what this means relative to any center support posts and turning/backing with tow vehicles, especially long ones like extended or crew cab trucks. [Tractors are much better having a shorter wheelbase - forklifts with a ball on the fork(s) even better. ]

I think I'd much prefer rollup doors on the eave side of the building. This way the above issues are mitigated, you have instant access to anything, you pull straight in and out and don't have to worry about the interior support posts as much. Personally the only reason I'd use the gable endwall is to gain access to the potential additional height in the center of the bldg.

 

[dave1949]

Doors under eaves can be very handy. Downside is they get blocked with snow slides in winter. Just park summer stuff in them
Dave.

 

[rambler]

For sure go with your taller building. Don't shortchange yourself. This is a big building, someday you can rent out for good money if you have it tall enough, big enough doord.

Are these sliding doors? It doesn't cost much more to put in a big door over a small door. Put a 24 foot door on one end of the 48 foot building, then you have something that won't grow too small. So what if you store things intot he center alley a little, you still have the other side of the door to use. I couldn't get my dualed tractor into a 14 foot wide door; building would be worthless for me to rent from you. Think of the future values, not what you are doing today.

Side doors build up with snow, take more $$$ for the beam overhead, can't be as tall. The 2 end doors will be great. If you don't want both, just keep one closed for now & treat it like a wall. Someday, you will be very thankfull for the access from both sides. Good move to put a door in both ends. I'd sure want a much wider door in one end - 2 12 foot sliders to make 24 foot door. If you only want to use 12 feet to drive in, only open one door, park in front of the other one. Automatically have your off-set door. Then someday when you buy that tractor with a mower conditioner on the side, you can open both doors and drive in! 14 foot door is too narrow.

Sissors trusses don't add a lot of cost, will gain you close to a 13 foot door height on a 12 foot high wall. Price it out anyhow.....

My shed they used 9 foot spacing on the poles, 81 foot building. 10 foot seems too much for any type of snow load, don't hear of that. 8 or 9 is normal.

Don't cut back. We always outgrow them; if we don't need them we can rent them - more $$$ for bigger doors, taller eves....

--->Paul

 

[Duffster]

My shed they used 9 foot spacing on the poles, 81 foot building. 10 foot seems too much for any type of snow load, don't hear of that. 8 or 9 is normal.



--->Paul

Truss spacing has nothing to do with snowload.

Many buildings around here have 12' spacings and I have seen several with 16' spacings.

 

[rambler]

I'm assuming a wood pole shed with metal skin. It becomes combersome to make more than a 9 foot spacing for the girts & perlins to hold up more than a 9 foot spacing under typical northern wind & snowloads. Anything is possible, but if ecconomy is part of the equasion, it rarely makes sense to do more than a 9 foot spacing.

If this is a metal frame then greater spacings can work ecconomically - but typically only for larger buildings to start with. However for the size, I'd price out a wood building to compare.

Whatever is wanted can be built, of couse. I'm not paying for it, so doesn't bother me.

--->Paul

 

[Duffster]

I'm assuming a wood pole shed with metal skin. It becomes combersome to make more than a 9 foot spacing for the girts & perlins to hold up more than a 9 foot spacing under typical northern wind & snowloads. Anything is possible, but if ecconomy is part of the equasion, it rarely makes sense to do more than a 9 foot spacing.

I was thinking economy was why they went with 12' spacing.

 

[rambler]

I was thinking economy was why they went with 12' spacing.

I'm thinking wood pole, I'm way wrong if we get into metal frame:

If you build a stud wall on 16 or 24 inch centers, or a pole building on 6, 7, 8, or 9 foot spacing, you end up needing about the same amount of vertical wood. Space out a 6x6 or 8x6 pole over the distance covered, and - you will see it always equals almost the same amount of wood.

It takes a lot less labor to place posts every 9 feet, rather than a stud every 16 inches. So, the pole building can be built cheaper. But it doesn't use _much_ less materials - it just groups them into units that need less labor.

The problem is wind load, or snow load. As the distance bewteen the poles increases, the horizontal boards need to get bigger to resist bending & breaking. This increases the cost rapidly - once you get past 8-9 feet.

Anyhow, that is my layman's understanding of it. I've been known to be wrong before.

If you don't need to plan for snowload then you can get by with smaller wood and perhaps extend the spacings ecconomically. But in a snowload area, you need to use real fat wood real fast as you icrease the spacings.

The roof of the lumberyard building 3 towns over collapsed last week, we've had heavy wet snow with a bit of rain, now it is minus 30 for a low last night.... A tough winter again, we have several months before anything will melt, good chance for more to pile on. It must be embarassing for the lumber yard to cave in. Iorny. A 5 foot drift piled on the roof, they were trying to remove it, all were off the roof at the time, and the one employee inside heard the cracking & got out the door as it collapsed.

--->Paul

 

[Duffster]

I'm thinking wood pole, I'm way wrong if we get into metal frame:

If you build a stud wall on 16 or 24 inch centers, or a pole building on 6, 7, 8, or 9 foot spacing, you end up needing about the same amount of vertical wood. Space out a 6x6 or 8x6 pole over the distance covered, and - you will see it always equals almost the same amount of wood.

It takes a lot less labor to place posts every 9 feet, rather than a stud every 16 inches. So, the pole building can be built cheaper. But it doesn't use _much_ less materials - it just groups them into units that need less labor.

The problem is wind load, or snow load. As the distance bewteen the poles increases, the horizontal boards need to get bigger to resist bending & breaking. This increases the cost rapidly - once you get past 8-9 feet.

Anyhow, that is my layman's understanding of it. I've been known to be wrong before.

If you don't need to plan for snowload then you can get by with smaller wood and perhaps extend the spacings ecconomically. But in a snowload area, you need to use real fat wood real fast as you icrease the spacings.

The roof of the lumberyard building 3 towns over collapsed last week, we've had heavy wet snow with a bit of rain, now it is minus 30 for a low last night.... A tough winter again, we have several months before anything will melt, good chance for more to pile on. It must be embarassing for the lumber yard to cave in. Iorny. A 5 foot drift piled on the roof, they were trying to remove it, all were off the roof at the time, and the one employee inside heard the cracking & got out the door as it collapsed.

--->Paul

Do you have 2 x 4 purlins with your 9' spacing?

 

[rambler]

Do you have 2 x 4 purlins with your 9' spacing?

Yes. On edge. Placed between the trusses.

The girts are bigger - I think 2x8, but could be 2x6 - I should measure that. They are flat on the building, outside of the poles. It's 24 below zero, was up to 12 below this afternoon - I might not go measure it right now!

--->Paul

 

[wedge40]

It's 24 below zero, was up to 12 below this afternoon - I might not go measure it right now!

--->Paul

Maybe Al Gore will pay your heating bill, since we are having such a problem with global warming this has to be a fluke.
I woke to -1. We get that kind of temps here, but usually not till the middle or end of January. Hmm maybe spring will earlier this year.

Wedge

 

[RWTschoeke]

I had considered placing a door on one of the sidewalls but decided against it when I saw the huge snowpiles from roof slide in front of the side doors every spring. Around here those snowpiles may hang around into May. I hope to be getting the toys out earlier in the year. Plus making a 90 degree turn inside the building will cut down on usable storage especially if you have a long trailer attached. The sliding wider door is a good thought, but 14' should be plenty for my needs; heck you could fit a friggin semi in this building.
Parking may be a challenge but being able to approach from both sides makes backing in easier. In the winter, I will most likely store in front of one of the doors leaving the other free to get the tractor/snow plow out. I have a trailer dolly that allows one to move trailers around in tighter spaces without the need of a car/truck.
There will be no support poles inside the building; at least until I decide to put in the mezzanine which will then require additional support.
Regarding the trusses: Snow load is determined by the extent of bracing within the trusses, truss width and wood type.. For my purposes (48' wide building w/ trusses 8' OC, the cost of going from 30 to 40 psf was much greater than 15 to 30 psf snow load. I'm sure each situation is unique and the engineer designing the trusses is one you must have confidence in.

 

[RWTschoeke]

The building is nearly completed and I've taken some pictures which I would like to post to this forum. Could someone please explain the easiest way to post pictures to this forum with descriptions from an IMac? Would like to get them downloaded and show the fine work the builders have done.

 

[mojoinco]

Just a maybe-too-late thought. There are foam rubber pieces that fit on either side of the metal siding at the top and bottoms of the panels. A lot of folks aren't aware they exist. Adding them in during construction (about the only time to do it). Keeps the wind, rain, snow drifts, and maybe some of the mice out of it. I think you use only one of the inner or outer pieces as the situation warrants. I had to engineer a solution to a problem I have with snow blowing into my shop (mostly the prevailing storm wind side) as my shop had none of this. I cut pieces of pipe insulating foam with angled ends and stuffed them into the groove at the tops of the walls. It has worked well, and I did the same thing for my wife's horse barn. It would have been nicer to have it built with the foam. And I think the foam pieces built in would have made the shop a lot more air tight.

When you lay your floor out, leave a few 'pockets' around the edges for entrance and exit points (water, power, air, gas, etc). Back fill them with gravel. This will mean no need to cut the wall for penetration points later. Except for the inevitable change in plans.

I have a cut (stress/crack line), smooth finish floor. Sooo much nicer than the brush finished and molded pad outside the door. I can roll a creeper (or anything else) on the interior floor. You could just cut the floor on the work bench area to save some money, and mold the rest.