Help with Patio Stone Lay out

[JB4310]

SWMBO (love that one) wants a patio, I've got the time as contracting business is slow, got the stone for barter, beautiful heavy blue stone, was at a convent and they had to remove it to install a play yard for the daycare that's there now. It's been piled up for 20 years, had my eye on it, when they asked me to do some minor work I asked for the stone, they were more than happy with the deal as they were tired of looking at it. only cost me about $300. to do the work.

So the question is, is there a simple program to lay out the stone within the dimensions I want the patio, tried cutting little pcs of graph paper, but that's not working. This stone is 1.5-2.5 inches thick, to heavy to place down just to see if it works and move again and again. I've got to have a plan as to where each stone will go, already handled them 4 times just to get them home. Will use tractor for all prep work and use forks to move them to work area.

There are many sizes but all are 24" wide, and all come out to an exact sq ft dimension, so there must be a formula to lay out randomly, I know it would be easy to lay them all in straight lines, and wouldn't really need a blue print, but then there would be straight lines every 2 feet all the way across the patio, would like to break it up more.

The sizes and quantities are:

24"x18" = 30 pcs.
24x24 ----23 pcs
24x30 ----43 pcs
24x36 ----15 pcs
24x42 ----10 pcs

This all comes to ~550 SQ FT I want to build a 20'x24' patio which is 480 SQ FT so I should have enough to do what I want even with the random pattern.

I also have 200 SQ FT of 18" wide stone if needed, and some monsters 3'x4'

Any ideas on a simple to use program that I might already have or free to download? I have the deluxe office edition of MS word, never used much of it though. never done any CAD work.

Thanks, JB.

 

[CurlyDave]

When we put in a tile entry, I was astonished to find out there are thousands of more or less "standard" tile patterns.

We chose what was called a "Venetian" pattern with a lot of different sizes of tiles and it came out great. A lot classier than just plain tiles on a square pattern.

Since you already have the tiles, you may have to work this backwards -- look at a number of possible patterns and see what % of tiles of each size you need for that pattern.

Anyway, go to a good tile shop and ask to see their book of tile patterns. You will be amazed at the possibilities, any of which will look a a lot better than a simple pattern.

It might be worthwhile to actually buy a book on tile patterns before you start.

I can't help with any software, but you are on the right track here. A really nice pattern is no more physical labor than a plain one, but does take some extra effort to lay out.

 

[Airic]

what a great find. Blue stone is not cheap. I would love to come upon a find like this. I would not set up for any particular pattern and just go randum and don't line up four corners. All your joints should be "T's".

 

[studor]

When I had to do a "pattern" with five different sizes of tile, SWIMBO insisted that it appear completely random. I discovered that the easiest way to do it was to lay the biggest pieces so they were never beside or corner to corner, then fill in randomly with the smaller pieces never creating a straight line longer than the biggest tile. I dry laid them and then took a digital picture of them so I could get them the same after mortaring. I thought there should be an easier engineered way to do it but when I asked an old tile layer I know he said he did it the same way. It is more work but after you have laid a couple of "rows" you will figure out the repetition part even though others will not when it is laid.
regards

 

[JB4310]

Thanks everyone for the replies,

I'll start at the tile shop I've done business with before.

I'm sure the cost of this stone would be considerable, once in awhile I have to buy 1or 2 pcs for a repair and it's $25-40. apiece, maybe twice as much for the bigger ones.

These stones will not be mortared but set in stone dust over a prepared base. There's just no way to start placing them to try and see how they look, they are way to heavy I've got to know where each stone is going to be placed before we get started.

Me and my helper had all we could do moving these things, all except the smallest ones require 2 men to lift and some are real BB's.

If I have to I'll put them in a straight line, with all the different lengths there would be random end joints but will have straight lines every 24" but in 20' that's only 10 courses.

Came up with one simple idea but not sure how it would look. Starting in one corner, go out in one direction with the first course then with the next course go 90 degrees away from the first corner pc. then keep changing back and forth. So there would be a staggered pattern at a 45 degree angle from the starting point, but the courses would be straight still just in 2 directions?

Anyone have a simple drawing program?

Thanks, JB.

 

[Barton]

I bet you could get some good help from the pros over at the groundtradesxchange forum.

 

[Richard]

Looks like flagstone? We (I) put it down also however, ours was irregular. What made it interesting is on the parts where the wife was helping me we'd have a spot for a stone...look at it and say "honey, have you seen a Texas or Ohio????" and ended up using the states as descriptions to the shape we needed.

Of course, the person who was asked the above question, ALWAYS responded with "why yes, honey, I have seen a nice stone over here...would you like me to bring it to you sweety...."

Seriously... we never ever vented our frustrations with laying 20 tons of the stuff.... would I lie to you?!!

Crud... I can't find a quick picture that really shows the back patio. you can see it but it has tables all over the place (taken day of our wedding which we held on patio)

 

[Carykong]

if you are flexible on the final dimensions, start in the middle and work out with ever expanding perimeter until you run out of stone.

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

check with the convent and ask if they have an old picture of the area where the stones came from to see how they had it laid out?

 

[mjncad]

So the question is, is there a simple program to lay out the stone within the dimensions I want the patio, tried cutting little pcs of graph paper, but that's not working. Thanks, JB.

That's quite a find you made there. Since you say you aren't CAD literate, I'd go back to your paper dolls as we used to call it in the engineering business. If you try to use MS Office's drawing tools, you will just frustrate yourself to the point of serious drinking.

I'd go 1/2" = 1'-0" scale, or if you really want a dining room table sized jigsaw puzzle, go with 1" = 1'-0". Most graph paper is 1/4" spacing, so one square would equal 6" at 1/2" = 1'-0". Number the pieces in some logical manner such as A1, A2, etc for 24" x 18" stones; B1, B2, etc for 24" x 24" stones, and so on. Make a layout on your table, then take a picture of it. Keep playing paper dolls and taking pictures until SWMBO is happy with a pattern.

I'm also guessing you are trying to use the stones as is with minimal cutting to save yourself grief.

Have fun.

 

[tommu56]

Dont for get the common denomiter on the "odd" sides id 6" so I would lay it out on a 6" scale or grid on graph paper or in cadd that said that stond can be cut if needed.


24"x18" = 4x3 on 6" grid
24x24 = 4x4
24x30 = 4x5
24x36 = 4x6
24x42 = 4x7

tom

 

[JB4310]

Dont for get the common denomiter on the "odd" sides id 6" so I would lay it out on a 6" scale or grid on graph paper or in cadd that said that stond can be cut if needed.


24"x18" = 4x3 on 6" grid
24x24 = 4x4
24x30 = 4x5
24x36 = 4x6
24x42 = 4x7

tom

Thanks again all,

My first attempt to use the graph paper I did the 1 sq = 6" but the pcs are to small and hard to work with. cat walked by the coffee table where I was working and caught his curly tail on the edge and messed the whole thing up

I'll probably go back to the paper dolls, just have to make them bigger and stiffer with a larger and heavier grid paper.

Every example of blue stone patio images I could find on the web are all random patterns, but all end up with small fillers. I don't want small pcs, maybe 12x24 minimum.
I'm almost thinking to be different to go with the 24" courses, the lengths are all different so the end joints would be random anyway, not really going for an artsy look, more of utilitarian look.

I'll take pictures of the project as I go should be an interesting thread unless I start pulling my hair out

JB.

 

[Danno1]

.

JB,

A lot of non CAD people use Google Sketch-up. Even some of the guys on this board! Although I've never personally used it ( I do CAD at work), it's supposed to be really easy to use.

It's a free download.

.

 

[PA hayseed]

.

JB,

A lot of non CAD people use Google Sketch-up. Even some of the guys on this board! Although I've never personally used it ( I do CAD at work), it's supposed to be really easy to use.

It's a free download.

.

I second that, I am no architect, and I managed to use it in 3days to design the addition for my house. Including floors, colors windows, etc. I am also not a contractor.

Just so that you know, a truly random pattern is exactly that. Just start dropping and filling in. Either that or go with a box pattern , you have to stare to see the pattern. I think you will have the benefit of being able to cut to size.

Stone Edging Examples this is an example of what I mean. One very big stone in the center, then at every corner smaller ones, then fill between. In th link look at the brown colored one by the bench and you will see what I mean.

Good luck, this pattern can be a large PITA.

 

[riptides]

I did a project like this about a year ago. Around 330-400 square feet. It was right up next to our house, an outbuilding, and an old well. Quite complex as far as layout. I'll get some pics up tonight.

I chose a totally random pattern. I layed as I went. Big stones went in towards the central "sitting" areas. It is back breaking work. I had all the materials, graded and leveled the area, and started laying. I got one "row" down, and the SO called in professionals for estimates. I was working too slow, and she saw how hard it was on me.

Well the price for laying it was crazy! So I did it myself. I tore up the row, and just went random again. Square feet is, square feet! If your in a square or rectangle, it ain't gonna matter.

One issue I had, is since I had varients, the size did not matter, the thickness DID. Each stone had to be hand dug next to where the others laid. I had some that varied between 2" and 3 1/2" thickness. This caused me to spend a lot of time "laying" each stone.

Crushed blue stone packs well and hard when you run your tractor over it.

I went back to the store for a 12X12 and another piece at the end. There is a god, because I had nothing left over. No cuts, except for around my hand-pump well.

I used a hand scrapper garden tool, to bust up the blue stone for stone laying. I used a rubber mallot to pound each stone down. A 2X4X12 was used as a level to keep me honest.

Like I said, I'll get some pics uploaded later.

 

[JB4310]

Well I started prepping the site,

Thanks for the replies

I haven't decided for sure, but am leaning towards just doing straight lines, these stone are all 24" wide so I would have a straight joint every 2 feet, the lengths vary so there would be some random look to it. I've seen many stone patio pics and am kinda getting tired of that style, I know that is the standard but I think I'll try something different. prepping an area 20ft x 24ft.


Riptides,
I would like to see pics of yours, maybe I'll get some ideas.
Yeah my stones are all different thickness, I'm sure that's gonna be fun, they vary from about 1.25 - 2.5.
I'm digging down 8 inches, I'll put about 4 inches of compacted process road base, then stone dust to bed the patio stones.

I'm thinking of running a course up both sides then filling in between the with the courses perpendicular to the sides, this way I can stretch a string between the sides to help with setting the stones level.


JB.

 

[JB4310]

Yeah I gave up on the drawing program, I fooled around with Sketch Up, but ended up going back to my cave man roots, I took the paper doll concept a step further and cut 1/4" foam board to scale and got some oversize graph paper where 1" equals 1 foot.

It was a PITN cutting all those pieces but they are alot easier to move around than the stone! Once I get it where I want I'll pick up the piece and mark the graph paper and then I'll basically have a blue print and wont have to think what the next stone size or location will be.

The HTL controlled 5 ft boxblade is making the prep easier, also using the dump trailer to bring the spoil out to the far backyard. Having the quick hitch makes it easy to drop the box and throw the receiver adaptor on.

JB.

 

[mjncad]

Looks good, and foam core board has lots of uses.

 

[SPIKER]

Looks like flagstone? We (I) put it down also however, ours was irregular.
Crud... I can't find a quick picture that really shows the back patio. you can see it but it has tables all over the place (taken day of our wedding which we held on patio)

Hey Richard: I'm just starting a similar project using somewhat softer sand stone from my creek bed, these are all random sized stuff some are thin and I'll be putting them onto some sort of sand base. what type material (sand stone or?) did you use to fill in between the larger gaps and what would you do different. Reason I asking is I'm not wanting to make a lot of mistakes, maybe I can learn something new
I have a lot of this type of rock probably will crack some but the patio is at a house that is going to be sold and want it to look nice to help the price. it is very soft until it drys some once dried it hardens up OK. getting it out of the creek is not easy but the price otherwise is good. Yes that is a natural stone with ROOT patterns on it also a lot of BEACH critters can be found in some if it. sandstone with iron & biological type formations all through it. should make a very interesting patio.

hardest part will be getting it all to set level, most of it is 1~2" thick some with thicker sections (border chunks ~4"x4"x20" or more long) and or thinner sections. the thick stuff I plan to put in the traffic patterns through gate & natural walking area. the thin stuff will be right along the basement wall and or the tree. forgot to mention there is a 6' dia tree that will border this patio.
Mark

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

sand is used a lot of places as a base.
I've also seen folks use agrilime or crusher run as a base, as it tamps well and sets up hard.
If you set your stones fairly close together (1/4" or less) you can use dry mortar mix to help hold them in place. just dump it on the stones when you're done and use a stiff bristle shop broom to swwep it into the cracks and level it. Rain will set it in place. (you can do the same thing with sand or agrilime as well - it just won't harden with time and moisture -- and will allow weeds to grow in the cracks)