Gear drive vs hydro

[MossRoad]

Probably more relevant on forkliftsbynet or beechcraftsbynet.
HERE we are/were talking about tractors.

Completely relevant.. People are using their tractors in tight quarters, very similar to how forklifts are used. In those situations, the hydro excels. Out in a field, pulling stuff, a gear excels. Each has their place.

 

[patrick_g]

Completely relevant.. People are using their tractors in tight quarters, very similar to how forklifts are used. In those situations, the hydro excels. Out in a field, pulling stuff, a gear excels. Each has their place.

Dittos, MossRoad!!!!

I have upped my post count a bit on this thread but don't recall telling anyone else their choice was bad or wrong. I did give examples of when the HST is superior to gear but always allowed as to how there would be counter examples of when gear is superior. It just so happens that I don't do anything with my tractor that HST can't do just fine. I never feel inhibited by my tranny.

More importantly, much of my tractoring is doing things that are CLEARLY not done as well, easily, conveniently, or safely with a gear tractor. If that offends anyone then they have a problem that I can't help with.

I don't care what sort of transmission YOU HAVE but if it works for you then I am happy for you. Where I get irritated is when simple truths as explained by MossRoad in his forklift comments are discounted by zealots who need to be reassured that there way is THE WAY.

It isn't like HST owners are trying to FORCE gear heads to change religions or anything. Make any argument you like about loss of power, cost, maint or whatever if it makes you feel better (sour grapes?) just know it doesn't make much difference to the overwhelming majority of HST users who recognize a good thing when they use it.

Egon's comments regarding coordination not withstanding. Egon, here is a coordination test for you and anyone buying into the lack of coordination bit. Tap your right index finger (or hand) on your right knee at a rate of about 2 beats per second. Now similarly tap your left knee with your left hand but at 1/2 the rate, i.e. every other tap of the right hand. Now tap your right foot at 1/2 the rate of your left hand and your left foot at 1/2 that rate. Continue this for a couple minutes error free and I will concede that you have fair coordination and can do something more complicated than rubbing your tummy with one hand while simultaneously patting your head. I can to the above taping thing with great ease and can extend it to include nodding my head and blinking an eye. (Maybe it helps that I am a drummer.) I don't think in my case I was driven to HST by a lack of coordination.

I also irritate folks by not being swayed by their eloquent arguments in favor of open station NON-CAB tractors. Again, I say, if you have an electric start tractor with inflated rubber tires then whether or not you have a gear tranny you are a poser, not the real deal!

Pat

 

[N80]

Tallyho, the price issue still stands. You are right, you might find an HST 4400 at one dealer for the price of a gear 4400 at another. That isn't the point. You have to compare the lowest HSt price to the lowest gear price. Finding an overpriced gear model doesn't really change the issue.

Patrick, I think Egon's coordination rant to be sort of funny. Especially when I think about myself. I'm the kind of guy that can usually walk and chew gum at the same time but if I think about it I'm probably going to bite my tongue or trip over my feet or both. When I cite my proficiency with a gear tractor, I'm citing the lowest common denominator. The point being, if I can do it, anyone can do it. Just takes a little practice. And sure, that is another downside to gears, who has time to become proficient on the machine they own?

 

[Egon]

Egon's comments regarding coordination not withstanding. Egon, here is a coordination test for you and anyone buying into the lack of coordination bit. Tap your right index finger (or hand) on your right knee at a rate of about 2 beats per second. Now similarly tap your left knee with your left hand but at 1/2 the rate, i.e. every other tap of the right hand. Now tap your right foot at 1/2 the rate of your left hand and your left foot at 1/2 that rate.

Pat, you be getting us off track again with all this 4 - 4 or is it 4 - 2 talk!

 

[Soundguy]

Your gear tractor got a hand crank or one of those high dollar electric starters? If you ain't got a crank start you ain't really in a position to represent antediluvian views even if you are a Luddite in good standing. REAL MEN drive gear tractors with HAND CRANK to start. If you got and use an electric start on your tractor then you are just a poser and should sit down and shut up and let the BONIFIED REAL MEN with crank start lay down the law to those upstart HST kids. Electric starters cost more, are prone to more expensive repairs, don't last as long as the crank and in general are JUST AS DECADENT as using HST.

So... until or unless you divest yourself of all the modern fancy EXPENSIVE maintenance prone claptrap like electric start, electric lights (think carbide!), and such you are NOT in a position to harangue HST users. It is like a cocaine addict looking down his nose at a heroin addict like he was superior.

You got STEEL tires? Are you running those maintenance prone high dollar pneumatic short life tires? If you aren't riding on good ole low maint steel instead of the cushy pneumatic ones then you are in no morally superior position to tell anyone which tranny to use.

Pat

Hmm.. ok argument if you want one that isn't apples to apples. There are utilitarian and safety purposes for that electric start.. and the price differential from electric start vs a blank plate and hand crank is less than 100$.. if an HST tranny cost 80$ more than a gear.. I'm sure there might be some more gearheads jumping over.

as for hand cranks.. yeah.. about 90% of mine -DO- have hand crank capability!

soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

I'm the kind of guy that can usually walk and chew gum at the same time but if I think about it I'm probably going to bite my tongue or trip over my feet or both.

I can chew gum and march in close order drill while playing a snare drum. I was also entertained by Egon's comments (usually am) I was pointing out that coordination is not my limitation. I have plenty of limitations but coordination isn't one of them.

Almost anyone can operate the FEL by the numbers one control at a time doing most anything with no problem with a gear tractor. With good coordination you can move the tractor, steer, feather the clutch, modulate the brakes, and raise or lower the bucket while curling it all at the same time. I have seen really good operators, true artists, do really well with a gear tractor.

HST allows the artist to do even more better and faster. HST enables someone with lesser ability and or experience to be more productive than they can be with a gear tractor in all tasks requiring close maneuvering and or lots of direction changes.

I make no claim that geared tractors in the hands of the truly competent can't do really well but for lots of close in work HST will be a better choice for almost anyone willing to learn to use it.

I rarely plow and don't disk much but I do move a lot of dirt, juggle round bales, move materials wth pallet forks and so forth. I have TNT and a hydraulic raise and lower scarifier on my box blade which enables me to easily do what is totally beyond most manually adjustment setups, at least in ease, speed, and precision. A geared tractor is not well suited to the kind of work I usually do. It isn't whether or not a geared tractor COULD be used to do my work it is whether or not it is the best fit. You can drive screws with a hammer and with practice get good at it but that doesn't make the hammer the tool of choice. If you have mostly tasks that a geared tractor is suited for then lucky you, you may save a buck.

The only time I depress my clutch is to start the tractor (safety switch requires it), engage and disengage the PTO as gently as possible, or select a different range (low, med, or hi) and I use my brake pedal even less except for engaging and disengaging the parking brake feature. Easing up on the hydrostat pedal slows the tractor. Abruptly letting up is equivalent to putting on the brakes. It is hard at most speeds to take your foot off the hydrostat pedal and get it onto the brake pedal before you are stopped or nearly so by the hydrostat.

I have yet to see any advantage offered by a gear tractor when relating it to my use. Others may find gears to be just exactly what works for them.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

And I have to be honest with you guys, I'm pretty down right now. I've been gone for about three days now and I just assumed this thread would die without my pointless blathering. But it looks like I'm not needed for that anymore. Sigh.

Ditto that... been gone a bit and 3 more pages are racked up..

soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

The poor horse.....Don't you all think it's been flogged into submission by now.......

To make a solid determination what the "typical" user needs, it would be helpful to know what "typical" is. Many of us probably think we represent "typical'. I know that I'm probably NOT the typical tractor user in the "TBN compact tractor owner" realm.

I farmed for 35 years. Hydro's have never really caught on as the primary "big tractor" on the average American farm. There were several models (primarily from IH) that were good/great "chore tractors", but they never worked out for "field tractors" (tillage/heavy pulling) There are a few VERY large 4WD's nowdays with hydro drive systems that are simular ONLY in name to what is the normal hydro compact. These tractors use drive systems that are FAR too expensive and complex to be incorporated into a smallish compact.

Presently, I'm involved with a mowing business. My tractors pull 15' batwings and 6'/7' single spindle mowers. They log more hours in a typical summer than many compacts do in several YEARS of use. (One logged over 2000 hours last year) By the nature of the jobs we do, there is very little forward/reverse/forward/reverse cycling. One speed and keep moving for HOURS on end. With the servicability, efficiency, and economy at time of purchase, gear driven tractors are the ONLY way for me. Syncro-ed trannies w/a power reverser work best on the smaller mowing rigs. But we've done quite well with just simple, plain ol' "crash boxes". Not nearly enough "lost time" to warrant the cost (either purchase OR maintenance) of a more complex drive.

Point being.....It's all about what you WANT and what you NEED. NOTHING..NO TRANNY is the perfect across the board answer to all of our needs. I have a hydro lawn tractor. I LOVE it. By the same token, a hydro trannied 100hp tractor to drag a 15' batwing around in a 100 acre field would be useless to me.

OK guys, take another whack at the poor dead horse.

 

[Soundguy]

(Maybe it helps that I am a drummer.) Pat

Ahh.. so you are one of those guys that hang out with musicians..

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

To make a solid determination what the "typical" user needs, it would be helpful to know what "typical" is. .

That's actually a -very- good point.

IMHO.. there is really no 'typical' user across the board. There may be typical small farmers.. typical medium farmers.. and typical large farmers.. all needing a different machine or set of machines.

Typical landscape business owner.. typical hi-volume mowing contractor.. typical low volume mow contractor .

Typical small estate tractor owner..

typical weekend warrior

typical city dweller that owns retirement property he visits once am onth to maintain with his tractor that lives on site.. etc.

hard to draw up a set of 'typicals' from all those catagories and have it be anything meaningfull.

soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

Farmwithjunk makes a perfect argument for a gear tractor. In his work it is ideal. Note he uses hydrostat to mow his yard because it is what fits for him. Well said.

Makes the point I was trying to sneak up on. What is best is what is best for you. To get wrapped around the axle worrying about a few bucks in initial cost or maint or a lost HP or two and let that keep you from the convenience and productivity of HST in situations requiring frequent ground speed adjustment, change of direction (frontwards to backwards), and ease of precision positioning is short sighted such that it makes Mr. Magoo a really eagle eye.

How many big time row croppers run hydrostats? Not many. If I should sell my cattle and plow the place up for corn, cotton, and peanuts I will be in the market for a geared tractor.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

I think one of the 'grey' areas that causes so much confusion is many tractor owners fall into an area where tranny type doesn't matter as much based on the small amount of work they are doing, vs actual tractor size or capability.

IE.. joe tractor user needs a smal tractor.. but one with enough FEL or 3pt to do 'x' task a couple times a year.. and past that.. he really don't care. For him.. trans probably doesn't even factor.. or if it does.. it factors in a way like price .. IE.. cost. Of course then you get the 'utilitarian' /'economy' crowd' and the convienience crowd in at the dealer ship.. with those making two different choices basd one 1) needs for the tractor, and 2) cost vs comfort. The #2 issue may not hold much water for the utility/economy crowd.. while on the other hand it's 'well worth it' for the comfort seekers'.

soundguy

 

[N80]

Pat, you be getting us off track again

Egon, why you be talking like a pirate?

 

[tallyho8]

1. Price
2. Reliability
3. Amount of HP loss with HST
4. Ease and speed of use
I'm still on #1 Price:

Tallyho, the price issue still stands. You are right, you might find an HST 4400 at one dealer for the price of a gear 4400 at another. That isn't the point. You have to compare the lowest HSt price to the lowest gear price. Finding an overpriced gear model doesn't really change the issue.

The point I was trying to make is that I shopped for the lowest prices on both gear and hydro and both of the lowest prices I got were $5000 lower than the list price on Kubota's web site and that there was only a $500 differential in the prices on the gear model and the HST model,not $2000. I do not believe that a gear tractor priced $5000 less than Kubota's list price is an overpriced gear model.


Another strange point I see when I read these threads is: when I read threads on "what chainsaw should I buy?, what rotary cutter should I buy?, what finishing mower should I buy?, etc., most of the posters always recommend buying about the most expensive one made (ex. Stihl, not Homelite) and explain their reasons why, yet these same posters, when it comes to their tractors, will tell you to get the less expensive gear model though they will admit that they would prefer the HST if it were the same price.

 

[N80]

Point being.....It's all about what you WANT and what you NEED.

Exactly, but what you can afford figures into the equation too. When I was shopping for a tractor I got it in my head that I needed about a 45 HP tractor. Admittedly, some of the reasons were misguided, but it turned out that 45 HP was exactly what I ended up needing. But, there was no 45 HP HST tractor on the market that I could afford. So some of us, even those of us who really like our geared machines, had to settle for geared machines.

 

[Soundguy]

Well.. yeah.. you can certaintly need more than you can afford in many cases.. and when it comes down to need vs comfort.. price usually dictates.

For instance.. if you have a chore that for whatever reason DEMANDS a .. say.. 45pto hp tractor.. and you have a choice of a yucky gear 45pto hp tractor in your price range.. but the HST tractors with 45 pto hp are out of your price range.. well.. then.. it goes down to need and price... etc.

soundguy

 

[N80]

The point I was trying to make is that I shopped for the lowest prices on both gear and hydro and both of the lowest prices I got were $5000 lower than the list price on Kubota's web site and that there was only a $500 differential in the prices on the gear model and the HST model,not $2000.

Then you got an unusually good deal, and I think I can say with some assurance that that is not typical. My estimate between the 4400DT and the 4400HST, about $1500, is based not based on MSRP, its based on searches on the internet for actual sale prices. So you got an excellent price, and at only $500 difference, that would indeed make the decision much harder even for a 'gear' head like me.

But when I was buying I had a budget of about $19,000. Firm. Virtually no wiggle room. With rear remotes I paid something like $19,200. The $500 difference would have been a deal breaker for me 3 years ago,

 

[Reg]

I have a set of pallet forks.
I have used them more than a few times.
It is doubtful that they would have lifted & unloaded some of the things I have used them for if I had downsized to a smaller hydro tractor for the same price as my gear tractor,
e.g. my back-hoe.

{Well, maybe - I guess I would have bought and brought home a smaller back-hoe (-:
but that opens up the whole set of scaling arguments}

I do not and will not regard a tractor with pallet forks to be precision competitive with a fork-lift.
I have no need for fork lift precision, I am not running a warehouse and trying to stack items within fractions of an inch of each other to save space.
I just need to lift a pallet once in a while and move it, typically within 6 inches of target is close enough.
BTW, I have plenty of space to do that in, even with the BIGGER TRACTOR !

 

[N80]

FIf I should sell my cattle and plow the place up for corn, cotton, and peanuts I will be in the market for a geared tractor.

Pat

Interesting that you mention that. My farmer buddy (300 cows,grows his own hay) who has all old gear tractors is looking to buy a new 60-70 hp, 4wd JD to move hay bales with (6' round bales). His current JD is spending more time in his shop and the old Case-O-Matic back up with a PTO driven pump for the FEL just died 3 days ago.

He has, I'm guessing, 12 tractors. This will be his first new tractor ever. It will never pull a plow or anything ground engaging. Mostly hay wagons, maybe a no-till drill, maybe a rotary cutter, rarely the baler. Seems like the precision, ease of use, safety on hills, and all that would make it a no brainer. Sounds like HST would be ideal for him, right?

No chance. Geared only.

But why?

Three reasons. First, he doesn't think an HSt can withstand the level of use he puts on a machine in terms of long term durability. He may be very wrong about that but that isn't the deal breaker. Second,the deal breaker is that he does most of his own repairs, short of machine shop type work, and he does not think he can do HST type work. Third, budget.

Just a real example of the few good reasons for geared vs HST. Simplicity. Price. Which really pretty much sums things up. I trust you guys that HSt is all that and more. But that doesn't change the fact that geared machines are perfectly reasonable options for a lot of folks. Even those who will never pull a plow.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Exactly, but what you can afford figures into the equation too. When I was shopping for a tractor I got it in my head that I needed about a 45 HP tractor. Admittedly, some of the reasons were misguided, but it turned out that 45 HP was exactly what I ended up needing. But, there was no 45 HP HST tractor on the market that I could afford. So some of us, even those of us who really like our geared machines, had to settle for geared machines.

To many (MOST?) of us, price compatability would fall under the wide umbrella of both "WANT" and "NEED".