Gear drive vs hydro

[jake98]

Think this thread will ever get to the 'y's' ? Howcome it costs more? Not knowing, I'd guarantee yous that it's like lite beer. Weighs less, less moving parts, better for you, more better for them, so they charge more.

jake

 

[Reg]

Think this thread will ever get to the 'y's' ? Howcome it costs more? Not knowing, I'd guarantee yous that it's like lite beer. Weighs less, less moving parts, better for you so they charge more.

The price is higher because people will pay it, it is not clear that it costs more (to make).

With milk they can make more money by removing some of the fat.
1% or 2% milk is marketable as a health feature.
They make even more money by putting that removed fat into "half and half", whose marketable feature is probably "richness without excess fat".

Never mind that people will put both products in the same shopping cart on the same day and pay extra for both over regular "full fat milk".

I can't say I believe that any beer is in any way "better for you" or better for anyone else.
Better than acid or caustic soda maybe, but in no sense GOOD for anyone.

 

[jake98]

Man, it's been called cornflakes in a can. Used since the dawn of civ. because it's almost always safer than the water.

I wonder if anybody has an estimate of what a gear trans weighs compared with it's pistoned tormentor?

 

[patrick_g]

Interesting responses guys, everything from beneficial suggestions to unwarranted indictments (sans evidence) of the operator.

I have operated that little JD a little bit brush hogging (more like a big lawn mower than my brush hog. I came up on a tree with low branches and instinctively raised my foot on the HST pedal to slow while dodging. Of course it has no HST so I got a couple minor scratches.

So far as the operator. He has over 40 years on tractors and this particular tractor (almost new small JD) is just herky jerky in loader motions. It has adjustable flow control for the 3PH and he sets it for pretty slow motion. I agree with Sound Guy a flow restriction would make life better for him but some sort of variable one not a fixed restriction is my recommendation.

I am not a combatant in the transmission wars!!!!

I have, at various times, just pointed out some particular uses where HST beats gears so bad it is futile to try to trump up excuses. Just admit it, HST is SUPERIOR in some jobs.

Similarly, there are tasks where gear tractors do well, it just isn't in close in maneuvering like unloading 14 each 50 gal drums of feed and close packing them inside the hay barn with limited space.

I hear all about how my HST won't be running so good 20 years from now. Well, I probably won't either but so what, I'm not all excited about leaving my tractor to someone special in my will. HST is accused of being more expensive to maintain. Can't say, mine just runs and runs, 1000 hours so far. Will it make 10 thousand? I won't live long enough to find out. If needed I will just pay to fix it. Sure, if it were a gear tractor maybe just maybe I could do the labor myself if no special tools, jigs, or fixtures were required for preloading or whatever. Most likely I would just pay to have it done. A few dollars more for an HST is NOT A BIG ISSUE for me and probably not for over 90% of the practical users running them.

I just want what works best for me doing the overwhelming majority of my tasks. I really don't care if a better solution, in my situation, costs a little more. If a gear tractor is better for someone , that is what they have, and they like it then I am happy for them and envy their good fortune.

Note: The tractor transmission police auxiliary has been disbanded and will not be reconstituted. Vigilante activity is discouraged. If HST is a better solution for someone, just let them "waste their money" and run the risk of calamitous power loss, expensive repairs, shortness of pants, tight shoes, and dandruff IN PEACE without all the kibitzing. In case their use is a better fit for a gear tractor then rejoice in admitting yet another brother into the lodge. Show them the secret handshake and be happy.

Your gear tractor got a hand crank or one of those high dollar electric starters? If you ain't got a crank start you ain't really in a position to represent antediluvian views even if you are a Luddite in good standing. REAL MEN drive gear tractors with HAND CRANK to start. If you got and use an electric start on your tractor then you are just a poser and should sit down and shut up and let the BONIFIED REAL MEN with crank start lay down the law to those upstart HST kids. Electric starters cost more, are prone to more expensive repairs, don't last as long as the crank and in general are JUST AS DECADENT as using HST.

So... until or unless you divest yourself of all the modern fancy EXPENSIVE maintenance prone claptrap like electric start, electric lights (think carbide!), and such you are NOT in a position to harangue HST users. It is like a cocaine addict looking down his nose at a heroin addict like he was superior.

You got STEEL tires? Are you running those maintenance prone high dollar pneumatic short life tires? If you aren't riding on good ole low maint steel instead of the cushy pneumatic ones then you are in no morally superior position to tell anyone which tranny to use.

Pat

 

[scott_vt]

REAL MEN drive gear tractors with HAND CRANK to start. If you got and use an electric start on your tractor then you are just a poser and should sit down and shut up and let the BONIFIED REAL MEN with crank start lay down the law to those upstart HST kids.

Pat

Good Evenin Pat,
Absolutely agreed !!!

Darn, should have disconnected those darn electric lights first !

 

[patrick_g]

Good Evenin Pat,
Absolutely agreed !!!

Darn, should have disconnected those darn electric lights first !

Scotty, For you I will make an exception. You can comment on my transmission (and spinner-no spinner) even though you have electric lights A_N_D those high maint rubber tires.

Thanks for the pix of really nice old tractors.

Pat

 

[Reg]

Man, it's been called cornflakes in a can. Used since the dawn of civ. because it's almost always safer than the water.

I wonder if anybody has an estimate of what a gear trans weighs compared with it's pistoned tormentor?

Ahh yes, alcohol as an antiseptic/disinfectant, wine safer than local water, whatever excuse for a buzz.

"Cornflakes in a can" doesn't apply to REAL (European) beer, by law.

"Idiot soup" was one of my father's expressions, can't say I disagree.

 

[WilliamBos]

I would not give mu HST for any old gear tranny, would have to be something special, like a Dynashift, or a Dynastep(Vario).

 

[jake98]

Ahh yes, alcohol as an antiseptic/disinfectant, wine safer than local water, whatever excuse for a buzz.

"Cornflakes in a can" doesn't apply to REAL (European) beer, by law.

"Idiot soup" was one of my father's expressions, can't say I disagree.

My father threw the i word around too. We all try not to turn into someone else.
Not sure about the 'flavour' of your exp., but soup wasn't part of my education, in that sense..

Jake

 

[jake98]

Now I feel bad, gave Reg a negative flamin...
like an unflame. a flameout.

just got to thinking about the negitives since welding yesterday.
sure am glad the hot stuff (all around my shoes) was not on my trousers when i lifted the mask up.
made a couple welded patches on the ..auger.. (must be called the paddle?) of a no auger snowthrower...
blowers have a ? blower, throwers have a paddle up a creek i guess.
gotta go, beer's here. jake

 

[N80]

Patrick, I have to admit, when I read your post about your experience, I had two thoughts, crappy tractor (loader function) and not-to-good operator.

I have no reason to doubt that HSt would have made the work you are describing easier.

However, if we are going to talk about experience. I have pretty significant experience working around gear tractors in the hands of experienced operators. Primarily my B-I-L farmer. We have done countless tasks with him on his older, JD ag tractor with FEL. Everything from lifting and moving, and working on down cows. Barn construction. Cabin construction. Loading large bales of hay onto trucks and trailers. Lifting, loading and moving virtually anything you can imagine including various sheds and vehicles. And I can say without hesitation that I have never felt like I in a dangerous situation...and I've been doing these sorts of things with him for close to 20 years, so its been long enough to know and no longer be naive about it. He's good, and he's good with a gear tractor. And while I'd bet he'd be more efficient with an HST, not much more. And not a nit more precise or safe.

And here's the other thing. Over the last few years that I've been a tractor owner, he's come to trust me when I'm the one on the tractor and he's the guy on the ground. And he does not suffer fools or incompetence....which my wife clearly does...but that's a different story.

So sure, you've given a great example of a task for which an HST is just the thing. But the operator is still, in my opinion, the most important thing. Someone who is dangerous on a gear tractor is probably going to be dangerous on just about anything else.

And I have to be honest with you guys, I'm pretty down right now. I've been gone for about three days now and I just assumed this thread would die without my pointless blathering. But it looks like I'm not needed for that anymore. Sigh.

 

[jake98]

[OUOTE]:And I have to be honest with you guys, I'm pretty down right now. I've been gone for about three days now and I just assumed this thread would die without my pointless blathering. But it looks like I'm not needed for that anymore. Sigh


how does he say it? "I dont care whoooo you are..... THAAATS FUUUUNNY...

 

[Egon]

Ah heck; it's pretty simple:

If you be a citified yuppie type that ain't coordinated you gotta use a tractor that has a HST type transmission. It's just obvious that these type of folks be to dumb to manage two physical independent moments at once. Makes one wonder how they even managed to do whatever it took to buy a tractor?

If you got a Pie Plate for belt buckle and chaw tabarca and hang dice on the rear view mirror of the PU and thinks you are blessed with coordination above normal then it's gotta be a real basic geared type transmission. None of this two modes on one pedal as it may be confusing! [Oh and you gotta forget that the stands are filled with scouts looking at over the hill folks]

Now if'n you be average Joe and feel a tractor is an implement that can aid you in doing whatever you wish to do then you don't give a damm about what type of transmission you be using as long as it does best what you wish it to do!

 

[WilliamBos]

Now if'n you be average Joe and feel a tractor is an implement that can aid you in doing whatever you wish to do then you don't give a damm about what type of transmission you be using as long as it does best what you wish it to do!

Amen to that!!

 

[jake98]

EGON Waxing poetic. I for one, am proud. How do we sing the anthem?
Jake

"Bag of rattlin bones, way away from home, what a what can I say I ? Been a bogglin minds all the days i find not a what not more than mine..." sing three more times then fall down...

not a jig..

 

[MossRoad]

Well, since the subject of HST VS Gear trannies on forklifts has come up... I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find a gear forklift offered for sale anywhere. Why? Because they are not safe nor easy to operate. I've operated forklifts anywhere in size from my little 1500 pound PT up to 20 ton units loading freight at the airport. I've only come across one gear forklift in my 30 years of operating forklifts and I have a story to share about that gear forklift. (probably told it before, but here it is again)

Back in the early 80's I was called out on a cold rainy night to the airport to load a Beech 18 (tail wheeled twin engine freight plane). I get out there and find I have to load two skids of catalytic converters. Now, if you've ever lifted a catalytic converter, you know they are heavy. The problem with a Beech 18 is that there is a wing spar about a foot tall across the floor of the airplane. You can't load both skids rearward of the spar or the tail will not come off the ground when it tries to take off. The deal was $20.00 an hour for the forklift and operator. The pilot is supposed to actually load the freight once I stick it in the door. So I stick the first skid in and he tries to push it up hill up towards the front with a Johnson bar. That ain't working. He starts cussing at me to help him out. I tell him that isn't part of the deal, he is going to have to unload the skid and move the individual converters ahead of the wing spar. He gets all nasty, calls the owner of the company and the owner tells me to do it. No increase in pay, just do it or I'm fired. So I get in there and start moving converters and the pilot walks away and has coffee. He ain't gonna help me . It takes me about a half an hour to move all of those converters up to the front of the airplane. I am hot and not happy and he comes out and starts cussing at me about being slow, etc.... and he's gonna be late now. I tell him to shut the bleep up and get out of my way and start to load the second skid. He gets in the plane and starts guiding me in. It is really raining now and he is cussing at me to hurry up, etc... as he sticks his head out the door, my foot slips off the wet clutch pedal and the forklift lurches forward. He sees the metal skid basket coming at him and ducks inside just as the basket smashes into the door frame. The forklift bounces off the plane and as I am trying to mash the clutch to the floor he pops his head out cussing just as my foot slips off the wet clutch pedal a second time. I smash into his airplane again, this time caving in the door post. He ducks in and I'm pretty sure I did it a third time. By then he thinks I'm trying to kill him and he does not come out again. I set the skid in the plane and drive away. I'm shaking from being cold, wet and just about killing someone. He comes in and apologises for being so rude and asks for a sledge hammer to pound out the door frame. I charged him and extra $20.00 for the labor and he didn't say a word.

My point being...

Gear forklift is just plain dangerous. You can say the operator is unskilled, etc... but the fact of the matter is I have not seen a new gear forklift in 25 years. Why is that? The industry does not want them, that's why.

Maneuvering a gear FEL around people, tight spaces and expensive property similarly to how a forklift would be used is not a good choice either when a safer, more accurate tool exists.

We can beat this argument about gear VS hydro to death. Both types have their place. However, the fact of the matter is, a hydro allows the operator more precise positioning, faster speed and direction changes, and safer operation in many, many tasks when compared to a gear tranny. You can ponder all you want. Until you get out there and operate them yourself, you will never know for sure.

 

[jake98]

Not sure you get eight smiley faces after bashing a Beechcraft.

 

[MossRoad]

Not sure you get eight smiley faces after bashing a Beechcraft.

The pilot's face looked more like this....

 

[tallyho8]

I've kept out of this thread long enough and now it is time for me to up my post count! After using an indeterminate amount of my time reading ALL of the previous posts it looks to me as this discussion revolves around the following main arguments:
1. Price
2. Reliability
3. Amount of HP loss with HST
4. Ease and speed of use

1. Price:
Starting with price, I will give MY opinions. I recently bought a L4400HST. There is NO set price for either. I keep hearing that an HST costs $2000 more than a gear model. This is simply not true. The MSRP may be $2000 more but few sales are at the MSRP. I shopped around before I bought my HST and found that dealers that had HSTs on their lot would offer me a lower price for one than dealers who had only gear models on their lots and the dealer with only a gear model on his lot would offer me a lower price on a gear model than a dealer with only HSTs on his lot. The lowest offer I had on an HST was only $500 higher than the lowest offer I had on an identical gear model. (And yes, I do haggle with my tractor dealer just as I do with a car dealer instead of paying his first asking price.)

Now, does it really mean that the tractor costs $500 more just because you pay $500 more for it? Not if you sell it 10 years from now for $1000 more than the gear models are selling for. And since HST models are so much in demand the resale value is much more. If it is a casualty, then your insurance company will pay you back more for it so it costs no more in that situation either. Even if you keep it the rest of your life and your heirs sell it for more than the gear tractor sells for, it isn't costing more, it just raises their inheritance. They get a tractor worth $1000 more instead of getting $500 more in cash.

Yes, a quality tractor can be an investment just as your home is. How many of you could have bought a home thousands of dollars cheaper than you did but decided to buy the better more expensive one instead. Even though you originally pay more for the home does not mean it costs you more because you get the money back when you sell it. (usually)

When I was young, back in my drag racing years, I always bought standards instead of automatics for the thrill of popping clutches and shifting gears and because it was the "manly" thing to do, and also because the standards were faster until 1965 when the Dodge hydro finally beat the gear models. My last standard was a 1982 Bronco that was very hard to sell because no one wanted a standard and I had to sell it much cheaper than the automatics were selling for. Now I see the same situations around here with gear tractors.

2. Reliability:
To be continued because it is 11:30 now and I need my sleep and besides, I can up my post count by continuing another day.

 

[Reg]

Probably more relevant on forkliftsbynet or beechcraftsbynet.
HERE we are/were talking about tractors.

WRT the point about price;
To ME (I am talking about MY perspective) it is NOT about the purchase price differential for same/similar tractor with hydro/gear trans.
Whether discounted, not invested in a failing economy (oops, don't save $1K or $2K to buy GM stock or get yourself into a bigger mortgage), passed to heirs as money or (by then) collectible tractor hardware.

It is about NOT having to buy a smaller and less powerful hydro tractor for approx the same money as the larger and more powerful gear tractor. (~35 vs ~40 was mentioned by someone).
It is also about NOT getting on the sales escalator, e.g. having fixed a limit of $xyK for the tractor and wanting as much tractor as I can get for that, the salesdroid presents a nmHP gear tractor. Once I'm convinced that anything smaller won't do all my chores as well or as quickly - zinger, for ONLY a few % more I can have a different trans. It is HARD to stick to the budget at that point and ask how much smaller of a tractor comes with that trans for the same price as the gear tractor we discussed a minute ago. C'mon, it only adds a few bux a month to the payments and at 0% for 72 months, etc.
Nope, I'm paying ca$h, but this is all I have.

GENERALLY the bigger, heavier, more powerful tractor for the same money is better value (Again, to ME !, for the tasks that I do) for a given dollar price.

It isn't about finding a pathological case in which one type of transmission has an advantage over the other and holding that up as representative of all the tasks that I am likely to do with a tractor.