Wheel spacers or weights for slopes?

TomSeller · Oct 7, 2014

vtsnowedin said:
It varies with the weight you have on the 3PH and or in the loader bucket and how high the loads are. On a bare tractor it usually is under your feet and a few inches down from the top of the transmission housing.
The math just compares things with just the one or two variables. My Technicians training kicking in rather then an Engineers building a scale model.
N
Here is something on the subject.
http://agsafety.tamu.edu/files/2011/06/SAFE-TRACTOR-OPERATION-ROLLOVER1.pdf

Good article. Very well written. Everyone should read

vtsnowedin · Oct 7, 2014

TomSeller said:
And deprive us of the mental challenges and eventual arguing? And the popcorn after the name calling?

Yeah what he said!!! Especially the pop corn. :licking:

dieselcrawler · Oct 8, 2014

I like popcorn... but like I tell my kids... play nice... *grin*

Hope the changes to your tractor make you more comfortable on your hills... waiting for your feedback!

SPYDERLK · Oct 8, 2014

vtsnowedin said:
Here is something on the subject.
http://agsafety.tamu.edu/files/2011/06/SAFE-TRACTOR-OPERATION-ROLLOVER1.pdf

Good article. ... Couple of mistakes: CG moving wrt tractor, and

Preventing Rear Rollovers
Tractor design features are available that reduce
the risk of rear rollovers. Some features come
standard on new tractors, while others are optional
to be employed in specific circumstances to
maintain proper weight balance. These include:

Rear-wheel weights

Tire ballast

SPYDERLK · Oct 8, 2014

number9L said:
I picked the wheel weights up today. The spacers should be here soon I hope. Id really like to try the weights alone, then the addition width spacers alone and then both together to see the benefit each adds on their own, but that's a lot of extra work when I LAN to run both anyway. Still, I may do it because if not I'll always wonder which had the most added benefit. Either way, I'll post some pics and impressions along the way.

At the dealer today they had several tractors like mine with AG's set in from factory and DANG they looked narrow as heck.

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Width will be more effective for sidehill stability. The weights are being added very close to CG height and will primarily help traction. Less sidehill "crabbing".

number9L · Oct 8, 2014

Called today and the spacers are still a week out. We got some real bad weather yesterday and my dang ditches filled up again (recent dozer work and it's not all covered in grass yet). So, I took off work today and been on the tractor from 8-8 cleaning them out and trying to get them draining right. It's getting late in the year.....I may very well be fighting this mud all **** winter

I put the weights on around noon and could tell a notable improvement. It came out to 192# per wheel. Tractor feels a lot more planted now. I had to take the box blade off a while to work the FEL close around the shop and it was a good bit better, not too light in the rear like before. I always use a counter weight on the 3PH but sometimes ya can't.

I'll mow grass tomorrow of it don't rain and will be able to get a feel of the difference the weights
make. I may put the bush hog on and drive around on the hill and see how the tractors gonna handle it.

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number9L · Oct 11, 2014

Didn't get to mow, rained again. Spacers should be here Thursday.

I seen a couple tractors parked by the road yesterday with mowing decks, one a batwing and the other a single deck. Both were large New Holland tractors, way bigger than my L3800. Bothe were 4x4, cab, and had front suitcase weights. There were areas they had already mowed that were pretty steep and it was obvious they mowed it side slope. That got me thinking....and from memory it seems every roadside mowing tractor I've seen has front weights on it. Yet it seems a lot of discussions on working slopes (sideways) has consensus to not have weight on the front that would move CG away from the wide rear wheels.

Now it's easily understood that a FEL hanging out beyond the front axle pivot is bad, but do suitcase weights work to move CG more so lower than forward?

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number9L · Oct 11, 2014

Didn't get to mow, rained again. Spacers should be here Thursday.

I seen a couple tractors parked by the road yesterday with mowing decks, one a batwing and the other a single deck. Both were large New Holland tractors, way bigger than my L3800. Bothe were 4x4, cab, and had front suitcase weights. There were areas they had already mowed that were pretty steep and it was obvious they mowed it side slope. That got me thinking....and from memory it seems every roadside mowing tractor I've seen has front weights on it. Yet it seems a lot of discussions on working slopes (sideways) has consensus to not have weight on the front that would move CG away from the wide rear wheels.

Now it's easily understood that a FEL hanging out beyond the front axle pivot is bad, but do suitcase weights work to move CG more so lower than forward?

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Gem99ultra · Oct 11, 2014

number9L said:
Didn't get to mow, rained again. Spacers should be here Thursday.

I seen a couple tractors parked by the road yesterday with mowing decks, one a batwing and the other a single deck. Both were large New Holland tractors, way bigger than my L3800. Bothe were 4x4, cab, and had front suitcase weights. There were areas they had already mowed that were pretty steep and it was obvious they mowed it side slope. That got me thinking....and from memory it seems every roadside mowing tractor I've seen has front weights on it. Yet it seems a lot of discussions on working slopes (sideways) has consensus to not have weight on the front that would move CG away from the wide rear wheels.

Now it's easily understood that a FEL hanging out beyond the front axle pivot is bad, but do suitcase weights work to move CG more so lower than forward?

...

I have been told that tractors with low center of gravity can be ordered. In fact, I did price out a New Holland outfitted that way... I don't know if the highway mowers are low C-G outfitted, but I do know that their operators come with a much larger set of balls than I have! Those guys deserve a lot of respect.

vtsnowedin · Oct 11, 2014

Gem99ultra said:
I have been told that tractors with low center of gravity can be ordered. In fact, I did price out a New Holland outfitted that way... I don't know if the highway mowers are low C-G outfitted, but I do know that their operators come with a much larger set of balls than I have! Those guys deserve a lot of respect.

Unlike wild ground highway slopes are built with a uniform grade over a given area. The whole slope in front of you is a 4:1 or 3:1 or 2:1 with few if any holes dips or bumps to tip you over. An operator soon learns what slope he or she is looking at and knows from experience which ones they can mow set up as they are. The front weights help keep the front wheels engaged with the ground and allow tighter turns then a loader held low.

Poopdeck Pappy · Oct 11, 2014

Gem99ultra said:
... I don't know if the highway mowers are low C-G outfitted, but I do know that their operators come with a much larger set of balls than I have! Those guys deserve a lot of respect.

You got THAT right! Those guys have some stones, for sure.

SPYDERLK · Oct 11, 2014

Gem99ultra said:
I have been told that tractors with low center of gravity can be ordered. In fact, I did price out a New Holland outfitted that way... I don't know if the highway mowers are low C-G outfitted, but I do know that their operators come with a much larger set of balls than I have! Those guys deserve a lot of respect.

Unfortunately that raises the CG.

number9L · Oct 12, 2014

Mowed the grass today. Just same areas I have been, not the newly worked areas, still fighting trying to get it covered in grass before time runs out. Anyway, ground was a little damp but the weights did make a noticeable difference. Tractor didn't feel as tippy in places it had before. Rear end felt more planted but it did crab a bit, but the ground was damp so to be expected. It crabbed pretty good on the worst spot, I watched the incline-o-meter close and it's a solid 25*.

I don't know for sure but I think there are areas on the newly worked hill that are steeper than that. It's hard to tell just eye balling it, some angles it looks much steeper but others it doesn't look so bad. Guess I'll probably have to wait until spring to find out so I don't get on it and mess up what new grass is starting to grow on it.

I've been reading up on the MF 35 Turf Special and Ford LCG tractors. They are out there on craigslist and other places but most don't have a ROPS and I wouldn't own a tractor without one, especially a tractor that would be used exclusively for slopes. I don't know if I could get used to no HST either *if* I did end up getting serious about getting one. They sure do look like they'd handle slopes good though.

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TomSeller · Oct 12, 2014

number9L said:
I've been reading up on the MF 35 Turf Special and Ford LCG tractors. They are out there on craigslist and other places but most don't have a ROPS and I wouldn't own a tractor without one, especially a tractor that would be used exclusively for slopes. I don't know if I could get used to no HST either *if* I did end up getting serious about getting one. They sure do look like they'd handle slopes good though.
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They are wide and aftermarket ROPS are available. My MF Turf Special is 96" wide outside edge of rear tire to outside edge. However, 2WD only. I'd say you should see how your spacers work out for you. I have one dedicated to mowing and spraying so it gets its 100 or so hours a year to keep in working condition. Well worth it to me.

skyhook · Oct 16, 2014

CobyRupert said:
Unless you add/delete or relocate weight on the object, the location of the object's C.G. is at a fixed location no matter how the object is rotated.

Liquid loading the tires will lower the C.G. more than the equivalent wheel weight centered on the axle.

Like I said, on a slope, the C of G is changed, it's obvious that the weight is "relocated".

the8080 · Oct 16, 2014

The CG is not changed. The side-to-side CG of a tractor is typically under the seat on the center line. As the tractor tips on a slope the CG moves relative (closer) to the downhill rear tire contact patch. The more the tractor tips, the closer the CG is to being over the contact patch. Once the CG is outside (downhill from) the contact patch, the tractor will tip over. The weight of the tractor moves relative to the downhill wheel tire patch but the center of weight of the tractor, CG, doesn't move around on the tractor.

the8080 · Oct 16, 2014

An attempt to answer the OPs original question. I am interested in this because a lot of my mowing is on 20 deg slopes and some of it more than that. I am looking at new tractors and trying to decide what configuration will do this as well as my old Ford 3600.

With some very simple assumptions and some very rusty physics I have these answers. Assumptions: L3800 with 60 % of weight on rear axle, 500 lb per rear wheel in ballast. I am calculating stability which I will say is the resistance of the tractor to tip more, no matter the angle. 200 lb rear wheel weight - 15 percent increase in stability. 2 inch additional wheel spacer - 7 percent increase in stability. Both - 22 percent increase in stability.

We need someone in high school that can do this math.

number9L · Oct 16, 2014

Very interesting 8080.....where did you get the 60% weight on rear at? Not contesting it, just wondering the source as I have no idea.

Spacers came today, just got them on a bit ago. Man they look big. It's 72" from outside edge of tread (not sidewall).

Also, I bought a set of steel exercise weights for a project early in the year and have had a lot of them sitting around with no use. I got to thinking about weight down low on the tractor and what I could do with those to aid in that. I rarely use the drawbar on my tractor, so I used two 6" bolts I had laying around and bolted several of those weights to both ends of the drawbar hanging under the tractor. It lowered my ground clearance about 2" but added another 130# under the rear axle. May not help much but every little bit adds up. If I find the reduction in ground clearance an issue I'll pull them back off.

I'll post some pics when I get them off my phone.

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number9L · Oct 16, 2014

Something else in response to 8080's post....

My rear tires are 11.2-24 R1's and filled with washer fluid, which according to charts at a 75% fill is only 200# each. I noticed tonight when I removed the tires to swap the spacers, that at least one tire "sounded" from the sloshing inside that it wasn't filled to 75% (or top of wheel). Now I am questioning in my mind if the dealer really filled them to that level. I am going to check that tomorrow of I get time.

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