Whats wrong with tier 4

[truckdiagnostics]

I don't think people are going to do that. DEF is cheap. You can buy it almost everywhere. The problem will be how well built is the High Pressure Fuel Pumps (hpfp). A lot of on road diesel vehicles, cars and pickup trucks have all had problems at first. The pump is lubricated by diesel fuel. If you have contaminated fuel (gas or water) it will fail and cause contamination throughout the fuel system. Ford, Chevy, Dodge, BMW, Mercedes, VW have all had some problems. They appear to be changing pump designs so this does not happen. Hopefully these on tractors are of new design.

The problem with DEF is it is urea! which freezes!

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Lets weigh into the weeds on another issue and that is enforcement. As it stands right now the Feds EPA forces the manufacturers to meet the regulations the stuff goes on. So who how are they going to see that it stays on? For the most part vehicle inspections has been put on the states. Dave's tractor's statement above about the science was well stated. At some point he maybe put into a compromising position. It is great to talk about all this clean air but when it comes down to money, "money talks and BS walks". This may not happen as wide scale as it has happened in the over the road trucks. The tractors where forced to meet tier IV latter so the technology is further along. A farmer has a loan out on his tractor, it is broken and he needs to have it fixed. Business A can fix it for $3,000, business B has to fix it for $10,000. Business B is a dealer and has to keep all the emissions stuff on the tractor. Business A is not and is removing it, and it will use less fuel after he does. So, now everybody has some choices to make. As of right now I know of no one that has been told they have to put the emissions components that have been deleted off there truck back on. I no of no agency that is actively checking and enforcing the regulations. Enforcing the OEMs to put it on yes, not after the fact. What is business B supposed to do? He is going to loose customers. This happens daily in the over the road truck industry. It may or may not happen in the tractor repair industry, it is however reality and I will be the last one to agitate for more government inspections. I know people that have lost there business over this so, science all set aside. My point is not about the science or keeping the air clean. You follow the rules and then they decide to change the science, or not enforce the rules or do I really want to be a dealer?, This issue could use a serious touch of reality!:banghead: And yes I do get it nobody told me life was going to be fair!:hissyfit:

 

[pap71]

I don't know about the diesel emissions at all. I just went out to the garage to check my tractor. The sticker on the valve cover says it meets 2010 tier 4 emissions. I don't have all of the stuff on it that you guys are talking about. Is it because it is a small tractor? It is a BX2360.

 

[Silvic]

Physicians are scientists first, practitioners second. The contents of diesel soot are not disputed by anyone. The Physicians Journal is appropriately commenting on the risk of nano particles with attached organic compounds lodging deep in lung tissue. It's the particles. They just "happen" to originate in diesel engines without particle control.

Actually most are not.
There are some physicians that are scientists but they are few and far between. Most have only a premed undergrad and then graduate from medical school with a MD.
Yes they have a good background in science but so do a lot of others disciplines that are not scientists either.
If you think most doctors are scientists then your definition of a scientist is not very accurate and/or lessens the quality of a true scientist. Most scientists are also not medical doctors either, that would lessen the quality of a doctor. Nothing against either one. They are both valid and qualified professions just do not meld them into one. Of course you can call them scientist if you want but then you have to accept that there are a lot of other disciplines that are scientists that are not. Your choice of being, or not being, precise in your use of words and meanings.

 

[DavesTractor]

I don't know about the diesel emissions at all. I just went out to the garage to check my tractor. The sticker on the valve cover says it meets 2010 tier 4 emissions. I don't have all of the stuff on it that you guys are talking about. Is it because it is a small tractor? It is a BX2360.

26HP and down required about nothing to go from Tier III to Tier IV, perhaps just a decal. That is why the 27-30HP tractors sort of went away. If you are going to have to meet a higher standard with the commensurate associated costs, you might as well bump the HP up a little. HP sells tractors, and if the 25.9HP Kubota with a loader was $16,000 and the 27HP with a loader was $19,500, the 27HP would languish on the lots. But make that next step 32HP and people can start to justify that step.

 

[s219]

26HP and down required about nothing to go from Tier III to Tier IV, perhaps just a decal. That is why the 27-30HP tractors sort of went away. If you are going to have to meet a higher standard with the commensurate associated costs, you might as well bump the HP up a little. HP sells tractors, and if the 25.9HP Kubota with a loader was $16,000 and the 27HP with a loader was $19,500, the 27HP would languish on the lots. But make that next step 32HP and people can start to justify that step.

This chart gives a good summary:

The BX2360 would never even have been Tier 3 -- it jumped straight from Tier 2 to Tier 4 final in 2007/2008 or so.

Stuff above 25HP went from Tier 2 to Tier 4 Interim around that same time, and never had a Tier 3 either. Which is why I find it frustrating when so many people on TBN -- including dealers -- keep talking about Tier 3 like it was last year. In reality, most of the recent model compacts people own on TBN were never Tier 3, they were Tier 4 Interim, and there's nothing radical or "DPF" like about the Tier 4 Interim machines. These tractors didn't start transitioning to Tier 4 final until 2012-2013, and most didn't reach this goal until the 2014/2015 timeframe. That would be all the recent tractors with DPF, etc. For example, my Kubota L3200 (32HP) was Tier 4 Interim through 2013, then changed over to the L3301 Tier 4 Final with DPF in 2014.

 

[prs]

I would bet if you could rip out all the lungs in the USA you couldn't find a nano particle from a Diesel engine. HS

IF (fantasy if) you could detect nano particles of diesel origin in human lung tissue, I very much doubt you could find an adult human lung absent of such.

prs

 

[Btown]

The problem with DEF is it is urea! which freezes!

Yes it does freeze. But they install heaters to solve this problem. Had my VW Passat TDI over 2 years, it has DEF in New England with No issues. The only issues I have heard is when the heater fails.

 

[Btown]

I don't know about the diesel emissions at all. I just went out to the garage to check my tractor. The sticker on the valve cover says it meets 2010 tier 4 emissions. I don't have all of the stuff on it that you guys are talking about. Is it because it is a small tractor? It is a BX2360.

It is interim Tier 4 since like 2009. Not the final Tier 4

 

[McREBEL]

As I was flipping through my Operator's Manual, I noticed this statement: "Since this engine adopts EPA Tier 4 and Interim Tier 4 standards...".

This is a 2008 29hp. It "adopting Interim Tier 4" is no shock based on the chart s219 has posted a couple of times but, what was a little perplexing to me was that it also "adopts EPA Tier 4" as in seeming to mean final Tier 4? This tractor has no DPF. It doesn't appear to have any type of catalytic exhaust.

 

[s219]

As I was flipping through my Operator's Manual, I noticed this statement: "Since this engine adopts EPA Tier 4 and Interim Tier 4 standards...".

This is a 2008 29hp. It "adopting Interim Tier 4" is no shock based on the chart s219 has posted a couple of times but, what was a little perplexing to me was that it also "adopts EPA Tier 4" as in seeming to mean final Tier 4? This tractor has no DPF. It doesn't appear to have any type of catalytic exhaust.

I have no idea what it could really mean or why Kubota would put both, but my guess is that the tractor satisfies some Tier 4 Final and some Tier 4 Interim standards (the final being more rigorous) and Kubota is shooting for as many brownie points as they can get. One reason I like the chart I posted is because it gives the basics. However, there were a lot of variations within the tiers and years, and the manufacturers were able to use/buy/trade credits based on other tractors in their fleet. Same things car manufacturers did with MPG ratings between car and truck sales, to get a fleet average (called CAFE -- corporate average fuel economy -- if I remember right). I suspect tractor manufacturers played games in bookkeeping to get their EPA emissions fleet average where it needed to be. All a guess on my part.

 

[Btown]

As I was flipping through my Operator's Manual, I noticed this statement: "Since this engine adopts EPA Tier 4 and Interim Tier 4 standards...". This is a 2008 29hp. It "adopting Interim Tier 4" is no shock based on the chart s219 has posted a couple of times but, what was a little perplexing to me was that it also "adopts EPA Tier 4" as in seeming to mean final Tier 4? This tractor has no DPF. It doesn't appear to have any type of catalytic exhaust.

Check out the new 2015 29 hp kubotas see if they still have no after treatment.

 

[Btown]

Here it is right off of Kubota's website. New Final Tier 4 engines use DOC/DPF combination. Your 2008 was Interim Tier 4 along with most other tractor engines at that time.

 

[DavesTractor]

The issue of the Tier rollouts is confusing because it is complicated. Different HP ranges had to comply in different manners at different times, and then we had the Flex units that were allowed to come in. Interim Tier IV and then the real Tier IV....this is not easy to keep track of. Some low volume manufacturers were given extended time to comply. As a dealer, I do not pretend to have a handle on all the dates and details. Whenever I seem to think that I have it figured out, I find another twist and realize I only know part of the picture. They hire people just to keep track of this stuff at the corporate level.

I do know that the new Mahindra Tier IV models are not interim, they are full Tier IV (under 75HP models) and have no DPF or DEF. They have a common rail system and a DOC. Simple.

The 1533-1538 use the same engine as the 50HP, so a big 4-cylinder with the fuel turned way down. That engine ought to outlive 3 tractors.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Based on the attached it would appear Kubota is loosing the DPF also. There is is still after treatment in the DOC, so there is hope. here is link where it came from
Kubota Engine America - LATEST NEWS
here is the chart
View attachment New Kubota T4f Engine Models.pdf

 

[McREBEL]

There are no new 2015 29 hp Kubota tractors that I am aware of. Post me a pic if you find one.

Here it is right off of Kubota's website. New Final Tier 4 engines use DOC/DPF combination.

I know this and that is why I just found it curious that the manual for the 2008 29hp B2920 stated "adopts TIER 4" in additon to "Interim TIER 4". It was just an observation. I never said Kubota is not using DOC/DPF on their new above 26 hp tractors to meet final Tier 4.

I suspect s219 is correct in that it only means the B2920 satisfies some Tier 4.

 

[ruffdog]

People will and do use contaminated DEF fluid. Large contractors use bulk tanks that have been modified to hold DEF. If they use the wrong metal in the fittings, they are contaminating the fluid. One tablespoon of salt will contaminate 5000 gallons of DEF. Putting DEF in containers that held other liquids, will contaminate the DEF.
DEF Contamination Levels

 

[ruffdog]

More DEF info:
Handling Guide

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is a colorless, non-hazardous, and non-flammable chemical. If DEF comes into contact with skin it can simply be washed off with water. DEF is sensitive to chemical impurities and it is essential that it is handled carefully to prevent contamination. DEF is much more likely to be damaged by the materials it touches than to cause damage to equipment.

If DEF is contaminated it may cause the SCR system to malfunction. This means pumps and containers used for DEF must not be used for any other fluids. It is important that tanks, pumps, hoses and nozzles previously used for other products like diesel or lube oil are not used for DEF. The requirements for handling DEF are unique.

The shelf life of DEF is two years if the fluid temperature remains between 12°F (-10°C) and 86°F (30°C). Where DEF is stored outside in bulk tanks or totes then heating and cooling solutions are available to ensure it is kept within the correct temperature range. Cooling is usually achieved by insulation and ventilation. Air conditioning is not required.

The third part of the ISO 2224 standard gives recommendations and requirements for handling, transportation and storing DEF.

Certain stainless steels and various plastic materials are suitable for storing DEF. Carbon steels, copper, copper-containing alloys and zinc-coated steels should not be used. Contact your DEF supplier for a more comprehensive list of equipment and materials that are recommended and not recommended.

 

[ruffdog]

Even CAT has contamination warnings for DEF.
Cat | Understanding Diesel Exhaust Fluid | Caterpillar

 

[sd455dan]

Introducing our Tier IV "mCRD Technology" | Mahindra

If Mahindra can do it, simply and relatively cheaply, I wonder why others can't? It seems that if it was a patented method (probably is) then Mahindra could license their technology to others and a lot of the issues that everyone is complaining about here would go away.

Everyone would be much happier, everyone wins. It seems like the other mfgers would jump at the chance to license the tech.

I too am very glad I got my 3016 last year.

No dpf but it does state Diesel Oxidation Catalyst ... so you do have to buy and use urea , right??

Seems odd they could patent what sounds to be HPCR like the cp3 Bosch system.

Looks like it is basically a Bosch cp3 system like used on the 2003 Dodge pickups equipped with a Cummins and then Mahindra added DOC.

Does look like a way to avoid a plugged dpf. And after reading a little more it does look as if some Mahindras do not require DEF.


If i was buying new i would certainly give Mahindra and any others using this set up a hard look. Mahindra should do well.