Whats wrong with tier 4

[truckdiagnostics]

Ruffdog, DEF is a bit of a pain. As an owner you can do everything right and at -40 the DEF turns into slush in the lines, engine derates and your stuck in northern Canada in the oil fields. And they are in one of those fields/companies that can't take it off and have to make it work! It has been interesting to say the least. How unreliable it has made some of the trucks up there is amazing. I have been trying to stick with criticisms where the "science" doesn't make sense. Try and find ship in and repair all the cracked frozen lines! Gets even better the truck that went down kept the oil fields airport open, so they had to fly the parts to another airport, then transport them. We can debate the science all day long, DPF and DEF is not going to work, last or stay on these vehicles. They will sell them somebody else will take it off, take it off themselves. I have heard people say well it is under warranty the manufacturer should fix it. When DPF and DEF first came out the manufacturers couldn't fix it. An over the road truck sole purpose is to make money, when it is sitting in a dealers shop getting warranty repair it isn't making money.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

No dpf but it does state Diesel Oxidation Catalyst ... so you do have to buy and use urea , right??

Seems odd they could patent what sounds to be HPCR like the cp3 Bosch system.

Looks like it is basically a Bosch cp3 system like used on the 2003 Dodge pickups equipped with a Cummins and then Mahindra added DOC.

Does look like a way to avoid a plugged dpf.
If i was buying new i would certainly give Mahindra and any others using this set up a hard look. Mahindra should do well.

DOC is a basically a catalytic converter Mahindra and other manufacturers have figured out how to meet final tier 4 without DEF or DPF. In a nut shell they are controlling the soot level in the combustion chamber and don't need it. And that makes sense.

 

[sd455dan]

DOC is a basically a catalytic converter Mahindra and other manufacturers have figured out how to meet final tier 4 without DEF or DPF. In a nut shell they are controlling the soot level in the combustion chamber and don't need it. And that makes sense.

I agree- especially since they Are meeting tier 4 on the over 30 hp tractors without DPF or DEF.

It is also nice that the oil in the crankcase is not contaminated with diesel fuel.

Something i heard about the 2012 Dodges with DPFs- my nephew said that the dealer recommended starting out a quart low on an oil change because the regen puts enough diesel into the combustion chamber that by oil change time the engine will be a Full quart over because of raw diesel...YUK
Not a fan of wasting raw diesel to (clean) the environment.

 

[oldpilgrim]

Yes it does freeze. But they install heaters to solve this problem. Had my VW Passat TDI over 2 years, it has DEF in New England with No issues. The only issues I have heard is when the heater fails.

So you're tied to an extension cord when parked in a cold area?

 

[Btown]

So you're tied to an extension cord when parked in a cold area?

The heater is in the DEF tank, controlled by the vehicles electronics. I know this technology is new for some people. They sky is not falling. It works just like the air conditioning in your car, except the computer in your vehicle turns it on and off. The ac in your car the operator turns it on and off. No rocket science here. DEF has been used in Europe over 7 years now. The DEF reduces NOX gases. A lot of manufacturers are using a aggressive EGR to reduce NOX gases. Not the best system, but it works. Don't forget these engines are NOT putting out much horsepower for their size. A lot of these engines are around or over 2.0 liters and put out 40-75 hp. BMW, VW, Chevy, Mercedes and other auto makers are making 140-180 hp from a 2.0 liter engines.

 

[Btown]

People will and do use contaminated DEF fluid. Large contractors use bulk tanks that have been modified to hold DEF. If they use the wrong metal in the fittings, they are contaminating the fluid. One tablespoon of salt will contaminate 5000 gallons of DEF. Putting DEF in containers that held other liquids, will contaminate the DEF. DEF Contamination Levels

Why would you put salt in DEF. heck if I put diesel in a gas engine I would expect problems. Most people will just buy a 1-2.5 gallon bottle of DEF and fill the DEF tank. Some people are just stupid and do stupid things. I remember one guy who bought a 2011 power stroke. He put in his fuel tank about 4 gallons of DEF realized he put it in wrong tank. Filled tank with diesel then drove it. The result was engine failure and contaminated fuel system. About 20k to fix. If he would have dropped the fuel tank and pumped it out of DEF and diesel he would have had no problems. Even if he towed the vehicle to the dealer and paid them to do it it would have been under $1,000. My Passat TDI holds about 5 gallons of DEF and that lasts about 15,000-18,000 miles.

 

[Sysop]

If DEF is so easily contaminated I cannot see how that would be anyone's choice of system for something that lives the filthy life of the average tractor. The more folk describe about it, the more it sounds like it is one of those "awesome results in the lab but total junk in the marketplace" kinda things...

 

[Btown]

If DEF is so easily contaminated I cannot see how that would be anyone's choice of system for something that lives the filthy life of the average tractor. The more folk describe about it, the more it sounds like it is one of those "awesome results in the lab but total junk in the marketplace" kinda things...

Far from junk in marketplace. If u add oil to an engine and u have half a quart left, do you put it in a container that had 90 weight oil in it. Do you put a teaspoon of salt or sand in it? Do you put the cap back on and put it on a shelf to be used later. Hence it is still clean and not contaminated. Common sense goes a long way. Seems a lot of people lack it these days.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

So you're tied to an extension cord when parked in a cold area?

No your not. Here is nice link explaining it.
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/MB10033.pdf
If SCR/dpf new acronym is so wonderful, and DEF is the answer, why are they scrabbling to get rid of it.

 

[Btown]

Based on the attached it would appear Kubota is loosing the DPF also. There is is still after treatment in the DOC, so there is hope. here is link where it came from Kubota Engine America - LATEST NEWS here is the chart <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/owning-operating/421671-whats-wrong-tier-4-a-new-kubota-t4f-engine-models"/>

Wow that is surprising since Kubota states clearly on their website that their DOC/DPF engines are many times cleaner than just the DOC. Bragging one minute how green they are and flip flopping. Oh well.

 

[Btown]

Based on the attached it would appear Kubota is loosing the DPF also. There is is still after treatment in the DOC, so there is hope. here is link where it came from Kubota Engine America - LATEST NEWS here is the chart <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/owning-operating/421671-whats-wrong-tier-4-a-new-kubota-t4f-engine-models"/>

Wow that is surprising since Kubota states clearly on their website that their DOC/DPF engines are many times cleaner than just the DOC. Bragging one minute how green they are and flip flopping. Oh well.

 

[jcummins]

What is that going to do to the value of Kubota's with DPFs, a few years down the road?

 

[McREBEL]

What is that going to do to the value of Kubota's with DPFs, a few years down the road?

I predicted earlier in this thread that the resell value will not be so good, but it was pointed out to me that someone could just remove the DPF if they didn't like it. If the DPF can be removed and not negatively effect the engine/electronics then maybe the value wont be effected too much. I still wouldn't want one.

 

[Sysop]

They won't try to tell us we can resell the can later to make up the difference? It's on a BigK, it can't be worthless... :stirthepot:

 

[Btown]

I predicted earlier in this thread that the resell value will not be so good, but it was pointed out to me that someone could just remove the DPF if they didn't like it. If the DPF can be removed and not negatively effect the engine/electronics then maybe the value wont be effected too much. I still wouldn't want one.

They can be removed, but you have to reprogram the computer since sensors will be missing.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

I predicted earlier in this thread that the resell value will not be so good, but it was pointed out to me that someone could just remove the DPF if they didn't like it. If the DPF can be removed and not negatively effect the engine/electronics then maybe the value wont be effected too much. I still wouldn't want one.

That may very well depend on how reliable the engines are without the DPF, and are running the DOC and meeting teir iv. Have not looked into how Kubota is getting there. If we look at how Mahindra got there as an example, there system is pretty integral to the tractor and you are not taking it off. Where the DPF and SCR/DEF is well added on, so they can reflash the ECM back to a time where it doesn't have that stuff. That is at least what they are doing on the over the road trucks. They then run better and get better fuel miliage.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

The original post was what is wrong with tier IV? I have said, 渡othing is wrong with the Tier IV emissions regulations, getting there with DPF and SCR/DEF is bad. Up until now I have been saying that you don't want DPF and SCR/DEF because it is riddle with issues. My next premise is "emission control components that are added to meet tier IV emissions that increase fuel usage are bad and do not really lower there over all emissions foot print. What I am saying is even when your, VW Diesel Passat, with DPF, is working correctly, because the DPF is causing an increase in fuel usage that is negating the emissions that the DPF is reducing. (I am picking the Passat because it was mentioned above and there is information available) Also, this concludes that we buy the soot being burned off has been turned into magical pixy dust and the scientist are always going to be right and that this isn't going to cause say cancer anytime soon. When fuel is refined it produces emissions. This is the reason for not approving the keystone XL pipe line, the oil from the tar sands is dirty and will therefore produce more emissions in the refining process. So, therefore the refining process must produce harmful emissions. So, if we use less fuel we produce less emissions. When the DPF delete kit is installed on the Passat there is roughly a 10% decrease. It's a stretch, but I do believe increase in fuel useage should be considered when, we say emissions are being reduced.

 

[Btown]

The original post was what is wrong with tier IV? I have said, 渡othing is wrong with the Tier IV emissions regulations, getting there with DPF and SCR/DEF is bad. Up until now I have been saying that you don't want DPF and SCR/DEF because it is riddle with issues. My next premise is "emission control components that are added to meet tier IV emissions that increase fuel usage are bad and do not really lower there over all emissions foot print. What I am saying is even when your, VW Diesel Passat, with DPF, is working correctly, because the DPF is causing an increase in fuel usage that is negating the emissions that the DPF is reducing. (I am picking the Passat because it was mentioned above and there is information available) Also, this concludes that we buy the soot being burned off has been turned into magical pixy dust and the scientist are always going to be right and that this isn't going to cause say cancer anytime soon. When fuel is refined it produces emissions. This is the reason for not approving the keystone XL pipe line, the oil from the tar sands is dirty and will therefore produce more emissions in the refining process. So, therefore the refining process must produce harmful emissions. So, if we use less fuel we produce less emissions. When the DPF delete kit is installed on the Passat there is roughly a 10% decrease. It's a stretch, but I do believe increase in fuel useage should be considered when, we say emissions are being reduced.

I have heard from a few who have done the ILLEGAL DPF delete on the Passat and none have stated 10% increase. You might see that on a 6.7L V8 diesel but not on a 2.0L I4.

 

[houstonscott]

I own a BMW 335d, and it's a spectacular car. Had a DF temp sensor in the tank go bad, BMW replaced it free even though out side warranty. Did not seem to effect car other than warning icon on dash until replaced. No doubt that high pressure direct injection diesels are far superior to indirect diesels. More power, better starts, use less fuel, they are quite, and run better. All good things. I'd search for tractor models the had the direct injection but without the EGR, or particulate filters. That way you get all the good and none of the bad. With low sulfur fuels most of the gripes have gone away. HS

 

[Industrial Toys]

Aside from the added and unwanted complexity, I suspect that the life cycle cost of these machines will be much higher.

Funny how few people look at true cost as opposed to purchase price or in these days, monthly payments.

Kind of like a customer of mine with a high efficiency gas furnace. He spent maybe six thousand dollars on it in repairs lately. DC motors, boards, you name it! That thing sure is efficient on fuel usage but could give a **** about how much of his money it burns!

Maybe some people on here don't know that a "real" diesel doesn't even need power. If you can get it started, with an electric starter, or running it down hill, or even a crank, it will run without power. And this was one of the beautiful things about a diesel.

Now, fast forward to 2015. There could easily be a hundred electrical connections that have to be perfect for your "diesel" to run. That and possibly a few hundred thousand (maybe more?) transistor semiconductor junctions that have to be working properly (as well as computer code) for your tractor to run. You had better hope, that the manufacturer spend the required R&D time and money as well as not having cheaped out, and spent the money to make sure all of that stuff was of the highest quality and can withstand the widely varying extremes to which a tractor can be subjected to.

And if not, THAT is what can be WRONG with Tier 4! In my opinion.