What to build?

[towmotor]

Hey folks, I've got question for you; maybe you can help me out.

I've got an old Dodge 1/2 ton 4x4 pickup ('83), slant six NP435 4speed (6.6:1 creeper 1st gear, PTO outlet) and NP 208 (chain drive)transfer case, 9 1/4 Chrysler rear axle, Dana 44 front (3:55's).
I've had the truck a long time (meaning I'm attached to it, and also meaning that it's worthless to anyone else), built my house with it, plowed lots of snow, dragged alot of logs etc. The thing has always pulled like an ox, the only thing really limiting it was traction ( I never put really aggressive tires on it or added lots of weight for pulling, for fear of breaking something or bending the cheesy chassis).
I also have another 1/2 ton (2wd) with a 9 1/4 rear (also 3:55's).
Both of these things have seen better days (as pickups) and I want to build some sort of tractor with a loader.

My question is this: should I build a short wheelbase (72 to 84 inch) 4wd tractor, or attempt a sort of skid steer thing, using the rear axles from both trucks?
The door plate on the 4x4 says the front axle can handle around 3200 lbs., the rear 3500. ( I assume that safe travel at road speeds comes into consideration there)
I'm just not sure how well the front spindles will handle a loader, even though keeping the steering setup nearly stock would make things alot easier.

I'm confident as a fabricator, so none of those issues really intimidate me.

I look forward to your collective advice...

 

[Renze]

I am afraid that the satellite pins will wear very fast if you use a p/u truck diff for a skid steer.

An articulated miniloader will wear less tires, road easier and put less stress on the differential
Some Dutch manufacturers of miniloaders simply use steering joints of big rigs as articulation joints.
I would use an automatic transmission, because an automotive clutch wouldnt like the continuous engaging and disengaging. No matter how pure your driving intentions are when building it and the first monts of using it, but at a point you will be tempted to use a fast gear for the sake of speed, comprimising the life of the clutch plates..

 

[john_bud]

Short wheel base truck-tractor hybrid would be my suggestion. The front end from a 1 ton would be a better solution if you are going to add a loader. But, that can be retro'ed on later after the current front end dies (should that happen) to save $$ now.

You will need to make a stout frame to support the loader.

jb

 

[towmotor]

I have 6x6 tube that I intend to use as my frame. That should suffice.

Renze; you really feel that the spider gear pins will wear significantly faster than they would if the diff were in a shortened wheel base tractor? It's essentially the same action. I guess the fact that I would be using power transmission for steering may add to the wear issue...

I wanted to build something with articulated steering, but the overall length of the driveline would make the thing quite a bit larger than what I want or need.

 

[Egon]

In days long since past Farmers mounted Farm Hand Loaders on the back of smaller trucks and used them for stacking hay.

The truck's were set up to operate in reverse. They worked very well.

Minimal alterations were made to the frame. Transmissions were arranged so the truck had the forward speeds when going backwards.

 

[WantedWolf]

Probably not much help but heres my buddys homemade lift.

Its a beast and has lasted at least 20 years. But look out no brakes

 

[David Devuono]

Problem with this set up is you end up with a tractor that will go 70 mph. Even with 6.61 1st and 4.10 rear (2:1 transfer case) your overall reduction is only 54:1. My Unimog had 113:1 low gear.

Perhaps you can find another transfer case and double them up or build a chaindrive one with at least a 4:1 gear. If you do go with yourset up it will be worthwhile setting up a governor as well so you don't overrev the gas motor, and lockout highrange to keep the speed down. Since you have two trucks, you can use both brake master cylinders, two brake pedals etc. You can turn on a dime similar to a skid steer and retain normal steering with the front axle.

 

[Renze]

I guess the fact that I would be using power transmission for steering may add to the wear issue...

..That's exactly what i'm thinking...

 

[towmotor]

David!?

Whats wrong with a tractor that'll go 70?
Kidding of course. I'll definitely make a shifting gate that only gives me first and reverse, and some sort of throttle stop. First in 4 high , without some sort of rev limit, is too fast for what I'm thinking about.
I'm not too concerned about a lack of torque; as I already mentioned, I've never seen how much the truck can actually pull in 4low, but I have pulled 16 foot oak logs nearly 2 feet in diameter. The real limiting factor was traction then, and with the resulting tractor being smaller, that's probably what I'll continue to deal with.
Incidently, I did the math again. The NP435 has a first gear that's 6.68:1, the NP208 t-case is 2.61:1 in low range, the axles have 3.55's... I'm ending up with a reduction of 62:1, unless I'm messing it up somehow. Whatever, it's a far cry from 113:1, but it will likely have smaller diameter tires than most tractors, so I ought to gain a little something there. I used to be able to hop out of the cab when pulling logs and walk along beside it, while it churned along at an idle.

I've been seriously kicking around the spider gear shaft wear issue, weighing the options.
All are questionable. I could ream and spotface the spider gears to accept a replaceable shouldered bushing, but what I'm unsure of is how the spider gears are hardened. I might wind up with something more vulnerable, rather than more durable.
I could just resign myself to replacing spider gears every so often, but I've noticed that Chrysler has been in the news alot lately, and it ain't good news; depending on a steady supply of parts from them probably isn't the best hand to play.
I'm strongly leaning toward the standard steering, placing the engine/transmission/t-case as far aft on the chassis as I can, building a chassis with a wheelbase in the 72-80 inch range. I'll roll the dice with the Dana 44 'neath a modest (6-7 cu foot) loader.
Skidding woulda been cool...
until stuff starts breaking

 

[SuperDuty335]

I don't think you'll have trouble finding axle parts. You have some of the most common drive line components ever used.

Out of awesomeness I would say go with skid steering, with articulation being my number two choice. If you articulated, you could weld up the spiders and have 4 wheel positive traction and really watch the parts fly!

I would like to add that I would really like to see you pulling a plow at 70mph while carrying something with the loader...

 

[towmotor]

I would like to add that I would really like to see you pulling a plow at 70mph while carrying something with the loader...

Me too.

You know what they say; The end of every redneck begins with the words "Watch this" (loosely translated- stick around to scoop me up, buddy, I'll give you the keys to my truck...)

 

[Renze]

I don't think you'll have trouble finding axle parts. You have some of the most common drive line components ever used.

How many aftermarket suppliers are there, for Chevy parts ?? Even if Chevy goes belly up, there will allways be companies that jump into the spares business... I assume there already are companies that are supplying brandless parts that fit Chevy... Now imagine if their biggest competitor (Chevy itself) would disappear: there would get a serious competition among those companies because they dont have competition from original parts anymore...

 

[rdbrumfield]

Traction is a great asset when you are trying to pull something, but if you are in low range and you are hooked up good it will mean axles will be snapping.

One thing you might think of, if you go with articulated, use the other rearend for the front. With it facing backward it will work properly. I had to laugh when some "genious" figured it out at ford in 78. Remember the highboys with the front driveshaft hanging way down in front up till 77. Well besides marrying the transfer to the trany, they ran the front drive shaft into the top of the frontend, as they do today. Your setup will go into the bottom. If you look at the rearend, with the driveshaft turning ccw it will be backing up or going forward if in the front.

 

[towmotor]

Yeah, I had the "which way does it turn" question churning in my head for a while until I crawled under the truck and looked at the pinion/ring gear relationship and then reasoned the whole thing out on paper.

I doubt I'll be using articulated steering, however. There were too many obstacles.
The engine/transmission/transfer case assembly, from front pulley to output flange, is about 68 inches. If my desired wheel base is between 72-84 inches, there just isn't the room.
I looked into hydraulic drive, which would have allowed a short wheelbase with articulated steering, but that would have required lots of money for the hydraulics.
That would certainly work, but I'm trying to spend as little money on this thing as I can, not as much.

Traction is a great asset when you are trying to pull something, but if you are in low range and you are hooked up good it will mean axles will be snapping.

Just another good example of the old adage "there's no such thing as a free lunch".
Give me enough torque to move some sand and tote a small backhoe and I should be good to go. This Dodge setup should give me what I need, in terms of torque/traction, right from the get-go. My greatest concern is the weight bearing capacity of the Dana 44 front axle assembly.
We shall see.

 

[DRL]

Towmotor, I always like the redneck saying you posted a couple of days ago, but I thought it was "Here, hold my beer and watch this"

DRL

 

[towmotor]

Some of us don't even need beer....