Well Pump Planing???

[DaveOmak]

Dave,

I think it's 1" out of the well.

This post shows the pics of the setup.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/195605-well-pump-planing-2.html#post2246476

I think what i need to do is run 1.5" out for sprinkling.

Is it best to use PVC, Poly or Pex for this the runs would have to be plus 300'.

Look again.........I can not be sure from the picture but......it looks like there is a reducing elbow on top of the pipe coming out of the well. It looks like it reduces from 1 1/4" to 1".....I could be wrong.....

Search "friction loss in pipe" on google.

Your well is 180' + any other distance + any elbows which restrict flow + anything else = loss of flow and pressure.

Personally, I would remodel this project to be the best it could be and be done with it. Even if it costs $50 more for better pipe etc. because your labor is going to be in the hundreds of hours. Dave

 

[TheGoose]

It's definitely 1" pipe, which is good up to about 20-30 gpm at pressure.

PM me for more information, if I can help you I will. I have done this hundreds of times.

 

[DaveOmak]

View attachment Friction Loss in sched 40 pipe.pdf

dieselscout, Good evening.
I have attached a friction loss in pipe schedule.
Looking at the schedule for sched 40 1" pvc @ 40 GPM for the first 100 feet, you will lose 31.27 psi due to friction loss. Since your pump is 180" submerged and I can see 3 elbows in the picture, you are probably losing 35 psi if not 40 psi by the time the water gets out of the well.

I want you to look at the bottom of the elbow where it comes in contact with the plate on top of the casing. I think that is 1 1/4" pipe going into the elbow and 1" pipe coming out of the elbow. Check it again.

Now it is time for you to trust TheGoose. He thinks I am incorrect according to his statement because it contradicts what I stated. Good luck with the Goose who has done this hundreds of times.

I think TheGoose is smarter than I am when it comes to hydraulics and irrigation. He will save you a lot of money by letting you continue with what you have.

PS: do not forget the chart is for the first 100' of straight pipe.

Goose, how do you get 30 GPM through 180' of 1" pipe ??? Just curious.


In my opion, another know-it-all id**t to the rescue. Just my opinion, don't get all worked up. Reread what you wrote and you will probably agree. Or read what all the other posts have said and learn something. Or at least read the "friction loss in pipe" pdf and learn something before you jump on my case.

Hakim, Good evening. You and I have been here before. Person give "bad" information, thinking they are doing right, are doing more harm than good.
Let me know if you are 86'ing me from the forum.
Sincerely, Dave


++++++++++++++++++
TheGoose Re: Well Pump Planing???
It's definitely 1" pipe, which is good up to about 20-30 gpm at pressure.
PM me for more information, if I can help you I will. I have done this hundreds of times.
+++++++++++++++++++

 

[TheGoose]

I'm not really sure why you think my remarks are directed at you. Any of my remarks are directed at the original poster.

My personal rule of thumb is that 1" is good up to 20 GPM, anything over 20 GPM gets 1.25" pipe up until about 40 GPM. The distance also plays a role. The longer the distance, the bigger the pipe. Of course you can use 1.5", but it's kind of rare in wells.

Application and costs play into it also. If you want to pay for 2" pipe then go for it. If you need 50+ GPM, you need 2" pipe. Some applications do not require pressure (open ended), so you have a little play in the selections. Sometimes the added head loss is a good thing for the pump, as it will restrict it a little.

View attachment 222857

dieselscout, Good evening.
I have attached a friction loss in pipe schedule.
Looking at the schedule for sched 40 1" pvc @ 40 GPM for the first 100 feet, you will lose 31.27 psi due to friction loss. Since your pump is 180" submerged and I can see 3 elbows in the picture, you are probably losing 35 psi if not 40 psi by the time the water gets out of the well.

I want you to look at the bottom of the elbow where it comes in contact with the plate on top of the casing. I think that is 1 1/4" pipe going into the elbow and 1" pipe coming out of the elbow. Check it again.

Now it is time for you to trust TheGoose. He thinks I am incorrect according to his statement because it contradicts what I stated. Good luck with the Goose who has done this hundreds of times.

I think TheGoose is smarter than I am when it comes to hydraulics and irrigation. He will save you a lot of money by letting you continue with what you have.

PS: do not forget the chart is for the first 100' of straight pipe.

Goose, how do you get 30 GPM through 180' of 1" pipe ??? Just curious.


In my opion, another know-it-all id**t to the rescue. Just my opinion, don't get all worked up. Reread what you wrote and you will probably agree. Or read what all the other posts have said and learn something. Or at least read the "friction loss in pipe" pdf and learn something before you jump on my case.

Hakim, Good evening. You and I have been here before. Person give "bad" information, thinking they are doing right, are doing more harm than good.
Let me know if you are 86'ing me from the forum.
Sincerely, Dave


++++++++++++++++++
TheGoose Re: Well Pump Planing???
It's definitely 1" pipe, which is good up to about 20-30 gpm at pressure.
PM me for more information, if I can help you I will. I have done this hundreds of times.
+++++++++++++++++++

 

[TheGoose]

And I really don't appreciate the personal attacks. It might be 1", or it might be 1.25". Hard to tell from the pics. What difference does it make that you have to get your panties all in a wad?

Just for your information, he's only losing energy out of the top of the well, not pressure.

People like yourself is why people that "know" don't like to post much on these forums. Those who do, do. Those who don't, never will.

I may have overlooked some of the OP details, but this thread went all over the place and I lost track of what exactly it is he wanted to do, which is why I asked him to PM me.

This is how you get 50 GPM out of 1.25 pipe BTW

View attachment 222857



Goose, how do you get 30 GPM through 180' of 1" pipe ??? Just curious.


In my opion, another know-it-all id**t to the rescue. Just my opinion, don't get all worked up. Reread what you wrote and you will probably agree. Or read what all the other posts have said and learn something. Or at least read the "friction loss in pipe" pdf and learn something before you jump on my case.



++++++++++++++++++
TheGoose Re: Well Pump Planing???
It's definitely 1" pipe, which is good up to about 20-30 gpm at pressure.
PM me for more information, if I can help you I will. I have done this hundreds of times.
+++++++++++++++++++

 

[dieselscout80]

installing the check valve won't work, the pressure switch will not kick the pump on once the pressure in the tank is low.

I thought about this and I believe you are correct.

 

[dieselscout80]

View attachment 222857

dieselscout, Good evening.
I have attached a friction loss in pipe schedule.
Looking at the schedule for sched 40 1" pvc @ 40 GPM for the first 100 feet, you will lose 31.27 psi due to friction loss. Since your pump is 180" submerged and I can see 3 elbows in the picture, you are probably losing 35 psi if not 40 psi by the time the water gets out of the well.

I want you to look at the bottom of the elbow where it comes in contact with the plate on top of the casing. I think that is 1 1/4" pipe going into the elbow and 1" pipe coming out of the elbow. Check it again.

Now it is time for you to trust TheGoose. He thinks I am incorrect according to his statement because it contradicts what I stated. Good luck with the Goose who has done this hundreds of times.

I think TheGoose is smarter than I am when it comes to hydraulics and irrigation. He will save you a lot of money by letting you continue with what you have.

PS: do not forget the chart is for the first 100' of straight pipe.

Goose, how do you get 30 GPM through 180' of 1" pipe ??? Just curious.


In my opion, another know-it-all id**t to the rescue. Just my opinion, don't get all worked up. Reread what you wrote and you will probably agree. Or read what all the other posts have said and learn something. Or at least read the "friction loss in pipe" pdf and learn something before you jump on my case.

Hakim, Good evening. You and I have been here before. Person give "bad" information, thinking they are doing right, are doing more harm than good.
Let me know if you are 86'ing me from the forum.
Sincerely, Dave


++++++++++++++++++
TheGoose Re: Well Pump Planing???
It's definitely 1" pipe, which is good up to about 20-30 gpm at pressure.
PM me for more information, if I can help you I will. I have done this hundreds of times.
+++++++++++++++++++

Well (not a pun :confused2 I looked at the setup last evening.

The galvanized elbow is a reducing elbow not sure what size though. I've attached some pics with some labels on it.

The bass fitting "T" that goes to the pressure than says 25.4mm on it which converts to 1"

How hard is it to swap out the galvanized reducing elbow?

Does it hurt to tee off before the pressure switch?

Our pressure switch is set at on at 30 psi and off at 60 psi.

The sprinklers are used to irrigate pasture not lawn.

 

[Egon]

How hard is it to swap out the galvanized reducing elbow?
/QUOTE]

Depends on if there is a union below the cover.

Otherwise it may require cutting, threading and adding another union.

Not difficult.

May have to support the tubing if the cap comes off.

Might be a good time to reconfigure the piping.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[dieselscout80]

How hard is it to swap out the galvanized reducing elbow?
/QUOTE]

Depends on if there is a union below the cover.

Otherwise it may require cutting, threading and adding another union.

Not difficult.

May have to support the tubing if the cap comes off.

Might be a good time to reconfigure the piping.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Can I remove one half of the cap to take a peek at the pipe?

 

[Egon]

That should be possible as the other piping should hold if anything slips. Would not hurt to tie the piping to one side to help prevent slip.

Note: Not really seeing the on site situation may lead to erroneous/dumb comments on my part.

 

[TheGoose]

It's not a cap, it's a well seal. And it is not very easy to change that elbow without the proper tools. I'm very puzzled why anybody would put a 1x3/4" elbow out of the top of your well. Very unusual.

The pump drop pipe is hung on the bottom of your elbow, so you would have to lift up the pump column, use a pipe vise to hold it up while you change out the elbow.

What threw me off is that if your well casing is 6" it changes the visuals for all the fittings.

Basically what you need to do is wait until your current pump is bad or you have the funds and call out a pro. You're probably going to need something like a 1.5HP 18 GPM pump, which will pump about 25-30 GPM depending on the water level in the well.

Good luck and post up what you find.

 

[TheGoose]

DO NOT DO THIS. You could lose the pipe, wire, and pump down the well if you attempt to loosen this seal. It is physically holding up the pipe.

Looking at the reducing T again, I think it's 1.25x1. If the brass tank T is 1" then you would have to have another bushing to go back up to 1", and I don't see one in your pics unless I missed it.

That should be possible as the other piping should hold if anything slips. Would not hurt to tie the piping to one side to help prevent slip.

Note: Not really seeing the on site situation may lead to erroneous/dumb comments on my part.

 

[Egon]

I'm kinda curious as to how one pulls the tubing without removing the Seal/Cap??

Just from the looks of it one half should hold up the tubing as long as everything is held against the other half.

Usually hardware stores will have the fittings required to make the required changes.

A couple of pipe wrenches, some thread dope, pipe vice or piece of rope or chain and a tripod is about all that is needed. Course you gota make sure the wrenches are being used in a right hand fashion and not left-handed or it gets hard to break the connections.:thumbsup:

 

[dieselscout80]

I would like to know the answer to this question.

Does it hurt to tee off before the pressure switch?

Egon,

I thought it would work that way by taking off half the well seal I could change the elbow.

I however wanted here from someone who has done it before since if I screw up it means no water for the house and maybe a $1500 bill.

 

[TheGoose]

No, it does not hurt to tee off as long as there is no check valve between where you T and where the pressure switch is.

The well seal sits on top of the casing, the pump drop pipe sits on top of the well seal. You have to lift up the drop pipe, release the pressure off the well seal, and then you can remove the well seal. As long as you are supporting the drop pipe, the well seal can be removed. If you try to mess with it while it's holding up the weight of the drop pipe, the drop pipe can fall into the well.

Hope this answers your questions.

 

[zonta223]

Option # 2
Install a cistern/storage tank for irrigation only. Say 3000 gallons.
Have it fill during the night and have a stand alone pump for irrigation.
This option allows for the current pump to be used for the house and irrigation tank.
The tank will fill in 5 hours @ 10 GPM.
The best part of the #2 option is pump life. Pumps last longer if they do not cycle on/off.

I am sure there are many variations to these options.
Purchase the best you can afford. It will repay you times over..Dave

This is the way I would do it but would use the storage tank for the house.
For me having the only pump that supplies water to my home 200 feet underground is a bad idea. What happens if the pump goes bad........instantly no water. With say a 5000 gal storage tank at least the house has water while you try and get the well pump fixed. With this system if the pressure pump from the tank to the house fails a quick trip to the hardware store gets you a new pump....back online same day. And a normal surface water pressure pump is way cheaper to repair/replace than a deep water well pump. If you want you can also use the rainwater run off from your house/barns/shed to top the tank for free
You can use water directly from the well to irrigate pasture etc without affecting the household water pressure.
Because the well pump is not constantly turning on and off it should last a lot longer.
Don't know if your electricity supply company sells you cheaper power for overnight/early morning use like ours does..if that is the case topping the tank up at night would save you money.
I would fit a float switch that activates if the level in the tank drops below what is "normal" usage... this would signal you that the well pump is not filling the tank for some reason.

Just my thoughts.

regards

 

[Egon]

The pressure switch should be able to go almost any where as long as it can sense the pump output pressure real time.

If you replace the elbow do it with a tee or a cross. Makes it easier to pick up the tubing. Use nipples on the tee that will extend to beyond the casing.

If you really get energetic you could redo all the well head piping into a neat arangement.

 

[TheGoose]

More pumps, more plumbing, more switches, more wiring...more headache.

I'm seeing the avg. life of submersible pumps about 15 years. 7 on the low side, 20-30 on the high side. All that extra head-ache for something that, at the worst happens every 7 years, and perhaps every 20 years, if sized and installed properly. No thanks.

You can do everything you want to do with just one properly sized pump and tank. And there are ways to keep the pump from cycling while you are irrigating.

This is the way I would do it but would use the storage tank for the house.
For me having the only pump that supplies water to my home 200 feet underground is a bad idea. What happens if the pump goes bad........instantly no water. With say a 5000 gal storage tank at least the house has water while you try and get the well pump fixed. With this system if the pressure pump from the tank to the house fails a quick trip to the hardware store gets you a new pump....back online same day. And a normal surface water pressure pump is way cheaper to repair/replace than a deep water well pump. If you want you can also use the rainwater run off from your house/barns/shed to top the tank for free
You can use water directly from the well to irrigate pasture etc without affecting the household water pressure.
Because the well pump is not constantly turning on and off it should last a lot longer.
Don't know if your electricity supply company sells you cheaper power for overnight/early morning use like ours does..if that is the case topping the tank up at night would save you money.
I would fit a float switch that activates if the level in the tank drops below what is "normal" usage... this would signal you that the well pump is not filling the tank for some reason.

Just my thoughts.

regards

 

[justwater]

More pumps, more plumbing, more switches, more wiring...more headache.

You can do everything you want to do with just one properly sized pump and tank. And there are ways to keep the pump from cycling while you are irrigating.

i understand how some may think otherwise, but i agree with this. in my experience, most homeowners with holding/storage tanks rarely even know the well pump is out until their storage tank runs dry.. then usually end up with 2 pump problems. anyone with a well that produces 50 gpm has no need for storage... jmo

to me, this looks like a 1x3/4" reducing 90 on top of the well seal... which seems goofy, but ive seen crazier setups.

one no-brainer way to know exactly what you are currently working with is to cut the pipe between the well head and the tank so that the pump can run full flow. (temporarily) install a T with a gauge, then a cutoff valve. let the pump run wide open, then cut the flow back with the valve to whatever pressure on the gauge you are looking for. measure with a bucket to figure gpm. then you will absolutely know how much water your current setup produces at whatever psi.. at the well head. if its something you can work with, great.. if not, then you can think about other options.

if you are just dead set on running 35-40gpm under pressure then you might as well replace everything and break out the cash. but many people irrigate late at night, and a pond shouldnt take much water to bring up and maintain.

saw this and wanted to throw in my .02
good luck

 

[kolmstead]

The reducing elbow is goofy, and the whole setup is marginal. Looks like plumbing has been added w/o unions, and the wiring is completely unprotected. There should be a check valve just off the wellhead, and a pressure relief valve.

If the pump's only down 100 feet or so and drop tube is 1", it wouldn't take much of a hoist to lift the pipe and change the fitting. You MUST be able to grab the pipe securely while removing that elbow, though! You definitely won't be able to remove half the well seal until you get the drop tube lifted. The seal goes down into the casing about an inch. It has to come up before it can move sideways.

-Karl