Well pressure tank oddity

[mikester]

Slightly off topic, who has checked or re-charged their pressure tanks? How often do you do it?

I haven't touched mine in 22 years and I'm thinking I should top up.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah most likely the 1/4" nipple to the pressure switch is clogged. Good reason to have a pressure relief valve. If the pressure switch fails to turn the pump off at 60 as it should, the pressure relief will dump enough water at 75 PSI to keep the pump from melting down and the pipe from exploding due to high pressure.

Pitted contacts or burned contacts on the pressure switch are the most common problem, and is usually the first symptom of the pump cycling on/off too much. Good to notice the pressure switch points burning and solve the cycling problem before it destroys the bladder in the tank, the check valve, and will then take out the pump. If your tank is losing air, it has probably had all the cycling it can take and the bladder is torn.

How a Pressure Tank Works and why you need a Cycle Stop Valve on Vimeo

 

[ponytug]

Slightly off topic, who has checked or re-charged their pressure tanks? How often do you do it?

I haven't touched mine in 22 years and I'm thinking I should top up.

Unless your pump is rapidly cycling, you don't need to. If your pump is on, then off in seconds, then yes. To refill it, turn off the pump, and drain the water in your system (leave a tap open) while you use air pressure to fill up the tank up to slightly lower than your lower pressure setting. Then close the water the water drain, and turn on the water, and then the pump, and you should be good.

All the best,

Peter

 

[cdaigle430]

could also just be the gauge is off calibration...if not then its def the switch....both cheap and easy to fix. Whichever one it is its wearing evenly because you 5 under and 5 over.

 

[Valveman]

As air is lost from a bladder or diaphragm style tank, the run time to fill the tank gets shorter and shorter. By the time it is cycling every few seconds you have been damaging the pump for quite a while. The correct amount of air in a tank should give you at least 1 minute of pump run time, two minutes is better, and longer run times are even better yet. You can tell the tank is low on air when it only takes 45 seconds to fill instead of 60 seconds. Adding air and/or discovering the tank is bad at this time can save your pump compared to waiting until you hear rapid cycling.

Also, gauges usually fail reading high only. When you turn off the pump and drain the tank, if the gauge goes to zero it is usually good. If it only goes down to 10 or 20 when the tank is empty, it will add that 10 or 20 to the actual pressure in the system.

 

[the old grind]

Slightly off topic, who has checked or re-charged their pressure tanks? How often do you do it? ...

Far from off-topic, and good advice given here on the procedure. I check my tank charge every Summer around 4th of July when I change batteries in smoke and CO detectors.

 

[Fuddy1952]

I replaced my pump a while back and checked that 1/4" nipple pipe. Years ago a plumber friend and I replaced bladder tank and he replaced that pipe with stainless steel. After years the inside was clean as new.
I have replaced the gauge a few times over the 40 years, and cleaned contacts (power off!) and adjusted switch. Replaced switch twice.
I wired a light outside of well house, one side of switch (120v), red bulb so pump on light turns on. It's helped a lot over the years indicating a leak, bad pump, etc.

 

[turnkey4099]

So I put my cell phone camera next to the gauge and filmed it after I turned on an outside faucet. Made it easier to see the numbers since the gauge is right near the floor and hard to read by eye.

Pressure dropped to 35 psi before the switch kicked on, then pressure went up to about 62 psi before the switch kicked off. After it kicked off, the gauge needle bounced to 65 psi (probably expected) then settled at 61-62 psi.

I think the high pressure cutoff is probably working OK, as 61-62 psi is pretty darn close to where it needs to be. The low end limit at 35psi is low though.

We do have hard water, so it wouldn't surprise me if that 1/4"pipe has a lot of crud in it after 7.5 years. I would have never thought of that but it's a prime suspect now. I think I will order a new switch to have on hand and then try to clean out that pipe.

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it!

The firsst time I had the problem, the pipe was so clogged I had to run a drill bit through it. My well poduces a bi of fine sediment occasionally which gradually builds up in that pipl.

 

[s219]

The switch I have now is a DSI, which seems to be a relabeled Square-D. Can't tell which model (and Square D has a whole bunch of 40-60 switches that look the same) so I need to pull the cover off the switch to see the label on the inside and get the specs. Then I'll look for the same model or an equivalent from another brand. Pretty sure it's this one:

http://www.ops-ecat.schneider-elect...ted States_en&prd_id=9013FSG9J24&conf=sensors

 

[MF RED in MT]

Our tank has a 40/60 switch and a few years ago I recall verifying those pressures on the gauge. I happened to notice the other day that pressure is dropping to 35psi then being pumped back up to 65psi. So something is off. Could this be a sign of a leaking bladder, or maybe the switch is going bad? The switch clicks on and off like usual. I don't detect any oddness other than the change in pressure.

It almost sounds like the pressure switch has been adjusted or is now in need of replacement?

From what I know, (be cautious of my post):

A 40/60 pressure switch should turn on the pump at 38 or 40 pounds (I think 40) and shut off the pump at 60 pounds.

A 30/50 pressure switch should turn on the pump at 28 or 30 (I think 30) pounds and shut off the pump at 50 pounds.

I believe it is the homeowners preference whether they want a 30/50 or a 40/60.

And I think some homeowners fiddle with the pressure adjustments to their desires.

Normally, when the power is off and the tank is drained down the air pressure left in the tank is 2 pounds below the low pressure of the pressure switch.

28 pounds for the 30/50 pressure switch and 38 pounds for the 40/60 pressure switch.

And that's my story and I'm sticking to it until someone tells me different...

Good luck with you issue,

KC

edit: Maybe the punp turn on pressure might be 30 pounds instead of 28 and 40 instead of 38 pounds, just cannot remember?

 

[not2old]

When I bought my house it had one of those expensive computerized controls that ran the pump every time you opened a tap. When it acted up, I replaced it with a pressure switch and tank. I chose a switch that cost about $125.00. It comes on at 65 and turns off at 85. I then installed a regulator that I set to 60. Nice even pressure with no surges anymore and all I've had to do is replace the bladder tank once in the 8 years since.

 

[Happy1406]

I had odd water pressure issues a couple years ago. It was due to the small pipe leading to the pressure switch being clogged. I cleaned that, put on a new switch and issue solved. I'm curious how long it's going to last before it starts showing signs again. Just something to check if you decide to replace the switch.

X2.......

 

[ponytug]

30/50 and 40/60 pressure switches are just the factory settings. You can adjust them with two screws/nuts. One screw/bolt sets the low pressure and one controls the range.

It is easy to adjust, though you may end up running a few pressure tankfuls through to get the pressure settings to what you want. Just make sure that the tank pressure is below your cut in pressure, or you can get a water hammer that prematurely shuts the pressure switch off. (AMHIK...)

How long your pump runs is a function of the pressure tank size, your pump size, your inlet pressure, and the switch settings. Short cycling is hard on the motor and pump, and you want to avoid it, unless you have one of those fancy constant pressure pumps, which are designed to run continuously, though they have their own issues.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Valveman]

When I bought my house it had one of those expensive computerized controls that ran the pump every time you opened a tap. When it acted up, I replaced it with a pressure switch and tank. I chose a switch that cost about $125.00. It comes on at 65 and turns off at 85. I then installed a regulator that I set to 60. Nice even pressure with no surges anymore and all I've had to do is replace the bladder tank once in the 8 years since.

That is one way to get constant pressure, but your pump is cycling itself to death between 65 and 85 while you are getting a steady 60 PSI to the house. A Cycle Stop Valve works like a pressure regulator to deliver a strong constant 60 PSI to the house, but it also keeps the pump from cycling on and off at the same time. A CSV goes before the pressure tank/pressure switch, which if you did that with a pressure regulator would close off and melt down the pump. The fact that you already had to replace the bladder tank means the pump is cycling way too much.

 

[Valveman]

Short cycling is hard on the motor and pump, and you want to avoid it, unless you have one of those fancy constant pressure pumps, which are designed to run continuously, though they have their own issues.

All the best,

Peter

Those variable speed or so called constant pressure pumps should run continuously when using water, but some do not. They are really made to separate a homeowner from as much of their money as possible. Pump companies know you can get better constant pressure and eliminate cycling with a simple Cycle Stop Valve on a normal full speed pump. However, a CSV is very inexpensive and will make a normal pump last several times longer than the pump companies planned for it to last, so they certainly won't tell you about it. Those variable speed pumps "have many issues", which is why we have been replacing them with CSV's since 1993.
Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

 

[RoyKing]

Your wasting a lot of money and pump wear using that much pressure, av40/60 with large bladder tank is a better idea.

 

[not2old]

I have a large pressure tank in the system and use full pressure to my yard hydrants which my wife uses a lot to water the whole yard(1 acre). You can tell when the pump cycles when you are using a fire hose nozzle on a 5/8 hose and it's about two minutes. I'm prepared to pay extra for the constant pressure in the house and was considering a second tank but hadn't gotten around to it yet. I'm still trying to figure out the theory of the cycle stop valve but would certainly consider installing one if I don't need to hire a plumber to do it. The older (72) I get the more I need to be self sufficient. This is both mental and financial. I love this site for all of the information available on almost any subject.

 

[the old grind]

My studying the concept and where/how CSV is used has been that higher the capacity and/or the more water is used the more the system benefits. It's true that with the device a smaller tank is needed, and understand that municipal pumping systems don't use onsite tanks. That does not mean their flow is constant, and they gain from reducing load/NRG-use on the pumps.

If 'simpler is better' it's not hard to appreciate not having any electrical complication, wiring, power trickle. An average guy can plumb one in if he's done any new or rework, eg: sweating copper, taping threads, etc. My tricky bit was to install the gauge some ways away from the pump, in inches. (I moved mine twice) It was a bear to adjust my CSV, but/and with my shallow well pump and paltry water use It's not so easy to quantify the results.

Anyway, my pump will not keep up with the garden hose or the washer. Pressure drop is quite noticeable if/when the tank is drawn down. I'm just waiting for my system to crash to replace it with a deep well and pump, gain flow and pressure. I wouldn't have it without a CSV if for no other reason than pump life. (plenty more)

:2cents:

 

[Valveman]

Your wasting a lot of money and pump wear using that much pressure, av40/60 with large bladder tank is a better idea.

Actually pumps like back pressure. They are also made to run 24/7/365. I have a submersible on a stock water tank that hasn't turned off in over 18 years so far. I expect it to last at least another 18 years as running 24/7 is much better on them than cycling on and off or running without enough back pressure. Increased back pressure when restricting the flow with a valve also reduces the amp draw of the pump, making the pump/motor run cooler. You can't get a large enough tank to keep the old 40/60 type system from cycling itself to death too soon.

Pumps are counter intuitive. I don't know how many times in the last 50 years I have heard someone say they were just using a little water because they didn't want to hurt their pump. Using just a little water is what causes the pump to cycle on and off, which is the worst thing for a pump. Running a lot of water so the pump stays on is best thing for the pump. The CSV just keeps the pump running constant even when using very little water like down to 1 GPM. The higher back pressure and reduced amps caused by the CSV will make the pump stay running when using water instead of cycling on and off, which will make the pump system last much longer than normal.

 

[Valveman]

I have a large pressure tank in the system and use full pressure to my yard hydrants which my wife uses a lot to water the whole yard(1 acre). You can tell when the pump cycles when you are using a fire hose nozzle on a 5/8 hose and it's about two minutes. I'm prepared to pay extra for the constant pressure in the house and was considering a second tank but hadn't gotten around to it yet. I'm still trying to figure out the theory of the cycle stop valve but would certainly consider installing one if I don't need to hire a plumber to do it. The older (72) I get the more I need to be self sufficient. This is both mental and financial. I love this site for all of the information available on almost any subject.

Cycling every two minutes is hard on the pump. There are 1440 minutes in a day, which would be 700+ cycles per 24 hours day. Most pumps have a limit of 100-300 cycles per day, and even that is just so they make it through the warranty period. If you already have the pressure tank/pressure switch set up working, adding a CSV prior to the tank or any tee is easy.
How a Pressure Tank Works and why you need a Cycle Stop Valve - YouTube