well-drilling with PTO??? anybody?

[Mustangous]

Can you use a smaller HP pump and just have more zones?

Well, I am still learning the whole irrigation system now, have lot to learn. I would assume i would need different zones, but i am having trouble finding gpm on sprinkler heads themselves to see what i need.

 

[jenkinsph]

Well, I am still learning the whole irrigation system now, have lot to learn. I would assume i would need different zones, but i am having trouble finding gpm on sprinkler heads themselves to see what i need.

That info is usually available with that tiny piece of folded paper in the box with the heads. It may be available online too.



Steve

 

[Mustangous]

That info is usually available with that tiny piece of folded paper in the box with the heads. It may be available online too.



Steve

I would have to fully design the system and placement before any purchase is made. I probably have to go to a supplier, would want good quality stuff anyway.

 

[lostunderhood]

Hi ultrarunner, I saw an artical in farm show about a guy in Texas that uses a air drill on the end of pvc pipe to drill the well. I will try to find the article and get more info tommarow, Loren

 

[ultrarunner]

Thanks for the research and Welcome to the Forum!!!

 

[suncoast]

Here is a company on E-Bay that sells plans for a PTO driven well digger. The other place mentioned earlier in east Texas is "How to drill a well.com" The fellows name is Nathaniel. He uses a circular air sander sold at HF that has been modified to fit inside of a 2" PVC pipe. His idea is very clever in theory. There are 3 holes drilled in the pvc near the head that create a vacuum from the air exhaust and carry the tailings up through a 1" pvc 100 - 150' run. Water is kept in the hole to help carry. This is a picture of the motor I built to his specs. A winged drill bit is screwed on to the threaded end. I have everything ready to go but have not tried it yet. I have an IR trailer air compressor to run it. You need a lot of air to pump the tailings up through that length of pipe. He sells everything on his site or you can just buy the plans and DVD showing how to build and drill.

 

[Carl_NH]

1. Irrigation / Sprnkler systems need typically .8 GPM per head depending on the nozzle for the rotating heads and the " fixed fan" type use even more per head due to the low resistance and high flow of these nozzles. So "rule of thumb" is 5-6 heads max per zone of any type. This equates to roughly 6 GPM @ 40 PSI average so you need a pump that generates 8-10 GPM @ 40 PSI and a well generating 8 GPM or a deep enough reserve suppy to support the outflow.

2. Pumps in Sprinkler systms are normally set up for 30-50 PSI so depending on the depth of the well you will need a pump that generates 8 GPM at the average water depth. If you are close to the supply - a lake or consistenly high water level a "surface well" where the water level is 5-15 ' below the ground a point type or dug well will work very well.


3. Point driven wells (typically a 1.25" steel pipe driven into the ground by sledge or power hammer in 3' sections with a SST point and 3' screen section) - The end result and flow is entirely dependent on the soil type and sub surface strata - so in one area it may be sandy and the next clay, or rocky / sandy mix. Each soil type will dictate the best well "drilling" method - water evacuation with the two pipe method or brute force driving the point into the ground.

I have installed multiple point type wells in the NE and can say unless you can dig to see water (8-10') its a very tiring experience driving through rock and materials to find water with a point well in this region. On the other hand, I installed a point well 10' back from a lake edge (to provide filtration of the water) and went down 6' and had excellent quality (tested) and endless supply of drinking water from that well for more than 10 years.

So if you have lake/pond source with dense soil you can dig or create a natural filter of stone to a pump pit enabling clean filtered water naturally, or just toss the suction end of the pipe in the pond wrapped in a bag with a float to hold it off the bottom. It depends on the end use to how extensive you filter/clean the water.

To the point of using a PTO drilling rig, the only suggestion would be using a long auger to drill a pliot hole to determine the mean water level then drive a point well if water is found.

 

[Reg]

1) Look at a truck mounted drill rig.
2) Check it over, ask the driller how it works.
3) Scratch head, ponder a while.
4) Ask for a quote.
There are REASONS why they cost $600K and up.

Seriously, you will break, bend & bust stuff that co$ts more than just hiring the job.
Add the wasted time and possibility of injury and you would be STREETS AHEAD having a pro do it.
They know the permitting process for your town too.

 

[RWolf]

Here is a site for a turn key system. At one point I was looking at this system.

Water Well Drilling Equipment Portable and Hydraulic Drill Rigs

 

[tommu56]

I've talked to several commercial drillers and access is a problem... they all have large rigs and are unwilling to risk getting stuck on my back 40...

The other problem is they also get a big price around here.

I've looked at a few of the portable rigs and tried to rent one once... none of the rental yards have them anymore because they often came back damaged of broken...

I had the same issue with access and finally found a guy with a cable drill and he went 450 ft.

tom

 

[smiley]

We dug a well this week and had major cave in problems. at about 16 ft we appeared to have about 3 ft of water in bony gravel and decided to drop in the 2 ft dia concrete pipe casing. while setting the second pipe we had a major collapse that trapped and partly filled the first pipe. We added the 3rd pipe and backfilled what hadn't already caved in. Unfortunately, when I pumped it, we have less than a foot of water, so I'll have to deepen it either with an auger, long handled spoon shovel, lever operated clam shovel or drive a point. We'll try driving a point first as it's the easiest and we're already at the water table.

I'm just throwing this out for consideration as I won't need to try it because I shouldn't have to drive it over 5 or 6 ft and have access to an air powered post driver if necessary.

While researching and thinking about point driving, everyone that drives wells by hand comments about the huge amount of labor involved in picking up and dropping the drive hammer/weight on the casing. Some people run a rope attached to the hammer, through a pulley on a tripod over the well to pull up and drop the weight by hand. So I got thinking, if you rigged up a large spool on the outside of a rear tractor tire rim, then jack up the tractor on that side and block the tire off the ground, run the rope under the spool and snub it possibly to the front axle or other immovable object, then when the tire rotated, you'd have an up and down action very similar to the old cable well drillers. You'd just have to pay out rope as the casing went down and be 100% certain that the rope couldn't snag on a tire lug or something and wind the rope, tripod, hammer and all around the wheel.
Just a thought but might be worth trying.
Smiley

 

[daveyb45]

I drove a 1 1/2 inch drive point 25 ft by hand. Used a custom built driver, weighted fence post design, about 90 pounds total weight. Each time I hit the pipe I would turn it (pipe) with a large pipe wrench half a turn. This prevented it from getting stuck and helped with going thru what seemed like rock. The first 5 feet was nothing,,,then the hard stuff, hard pan, 15 feet of this took what seemed like forever, once thru it was sand. Hit the pipe once and it would go down a foot unlike earlier it was about a 1/8 inch with each hit.
I have had good water with no problems for 10 years. This last winter my power was out in a severe cold snap. The well pump froze and busted. A few faucets cracked but nothing else major. Funny thing was the extra water I had in the crawl space did not freeze. I replaced the pump and since have not had as good a recovery time. I have added a second pressure tank and also placed the pump in the crawl space which is 3 feet lower hoping to help with less lift from the point. I have not checked the well pipe connection yet which is 20 feet away from the pump. I am thinking it may have froze and has a small air leak. That will be the last thing before I start on drilling or driving a new well. I might also back flush the point while I am checking the fittings at the well.
Anyways after this long winded rant, Yes it is a lot of work but I enjoy the satisfaction of learning something new and sometimes saving a buck or two.

 

[BHD]

Sand Points Well Drilling

 

[Baby Grand]

BHD -

Thanks for posting the Borzit link. That might just do for a well that The Plant Manager wants. We have varved clay that runs I don't know how deep under a top layer of about 18" of sandy loam. We're in the valley of nearby river (about 1/10 mile from our house), so the water table should be fairly easy to reach. I also need to run two pipes horizontally, and this looks good for that, too.

-Jim

 

[BHD]

there is what is called a Cable rig, or "spudder rig"

and they use a "baler" to remove the spoiles from the hole you may want to adapt it to clean out the hole,

some links to cable drilling,

http://www.consallen.com/Why-cable-percussion.pdf

Borehole drilling rig for water wells (cable tool percussion method), pile & probe driving, site investigation, workover, geothermal, prospecting, environmental, peizometers, remediation & geotechnical.

Wellspring Africa
there book is worth the $10 IMO and it goes to a good cause if nothing else.
plans on how to make the tools,

here is URl with some basic Ideas
http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/energy/water/paper/drinkingwater/wellsconstruction/rnpmethods.html

some have made small rigs that basicly use a capstan spool that one jsut tighens the rope to raise, and releases it to drop the tools, for a min rig,

YouTube - Cable tool Drilling Method

 

[Baby Grand]

BHD-

That's a great collection of information! It's going to take me a while to dig thru it all - but after spending about an hour I am getting a good idea of just how little I know and how important doing some more research is going to be to my success. When I was about 5 or 6 I remember watching a gentleman using a cable rig/capstan set-up mounted on the back of a truck drill a well for our landlord. It had a long, maybe 8' section of 6" pipe. Up, down, up, down. Periodically he'd hoist it out of the hole, do something with the pipe and go back to up, down, up, down. He worked drilling for a day or two and then spent another day fitting it up with a pump and made a little well house over it. Now I have a much better idea of what he was actually doing, thanks to you.

Jim

 

[BHD]

here is a small home made spudder from a riding lawn mower
pictures in the Url near the bottom of the URL,
VintageWindmillParts.com • View topic - Working windmill

I do not think it winches any thing, I think all it provides is the lifting and dropping of the tools,

the pulley attached to the large pulley catches the rope that the tools are on, and it swings thus dropping the tool string a few feet, and then comes around again catching and then it over centers and drops it again, If I under stand it correctly,

I the guy drilled his shallow well with it that the mill is over in the fist picture, if you read a lot of it was throught rock,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ edited

I missed it the first look I see a capstan spool on the axle where the drive for the crank is, to winch with,

 

[Baby Grand]

Love the vintage windmill site - I'm bookmarking that one for future study. The drill rig looks very complicated, but from his description it sounds downright simple and the action sound exactly like the rig I watched as a young lad. Slow lift of the drill string, then a quick release and dropping of the tool to the bottom of the bore, then another slow lift and so on. I seem to recall the thing going thud, thud, thud, at roughly one second intervals.

It seems to me that a 4 bar linkage might work nicely to produce the smooth draw-up followed by the trip action. It could also make for a simple and easy to build/maintain rig.

The photos of the two drill bits are very helpful, too. I have to keep reminding myself that this stuff should be kind of crude and not overworked or over designed. Simple, modified from found materials.

Thanks again for the information - I'm getting more confident about doing this myself. I promise I'll take pictures of the rig and post them whenever I get the scrap together to start work.

-Jim

 

[BHD]

found another version of a mini cable machine,
mhtml:http://waterforallinternational.org/Documents/WFA Bolivian Baptist Drilling System.mht!WFABolivianBaptistDrillingSystem_files/frame.htm
YouTube - Motorized Water Well Drilling Promo
(if one would put the swinging pulley arm as from the one of vintage windmills one can see it would drop the bit harder),
if you look at the other slides they have a little different approach to the bits,
not exactly the same unit but similar, but it show it working,
YouTube - Baptist Well Drilling: motorized
if you look at other of the Baptist well videos there is a lot of other info and tips,
YouTube - Constructing a Drill Bit for Water Well Drilling Using the Baptist Method
different source but same concept,

here is one more and it uses the swing type arm to trip,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXAS0UUc7Ek&NR=1

 

[Baby Grand]

Even more ways to skin a cat!
Thanks for the links.
-Jim