Well Drilled - Results

[Egon]

Idle time damage is dependant on the quality of water the pump sits in.

The flow rate is whatever the pump will produce at static water level. The amount should be determined by actual measurement or by using the pump flow curves. Accuracy of the flow curves depends on pump condition.

 

[Valveman]

So if the pump is putting out its max of 20GPM and the well static level never drops below let's say 350'. What is the GPM production of the well then? It would have to be higher than 20GPM. Maybe 25-30GPM?

Using a big compressor to blow the well will tell you how much water is coming into the well. But it won't tell you the pumping level of the well. The production is probably 20 GPM as the blow test indicates. But the pumping level at 20 GPM could be much higher than the total depth of the well. When pumping 20 GPM, if the pumping level stays at say 250', you could use a much smaller and less expensive pump than if you just plan for 470' because you do not know the actual pumping level.

 

[Valveman]

Is there any harm or damage to a well pump that sits idle for months at a time?

Actually as long as it doesn't get hit by lightning, the well is a good place to store a submersible. It stays at a constant temperature and is covered in water so the water in the motor doesn't leak out or evaporate through the skin.

You do want to turn the power off to the VFD however, as it stays powered up and uses power even when the pump is not running.

 

[Valveman]

The power coming in is single phase 230V but the controller converts it to 3 phase to the pump motor.

The pump has 21 stages

Yes if you use a VFD twice the size, it will convert single phase power to three phase, so it can run a three phase motor. The difference in efficiency from single phase to three phase is not enough to mention. But the three phase does let you use smaller wire. I have a customer right now who has been replacing a sensor or the VFD controller every year with his VFD system. He would love to replace the motor with a normal single phase so he would stop having so much trouble, but they trenched in the smaller wire underground and under the driveway, so he is stuck replacing the VFD every year until he decides to cut a new trench and put in wire that is a little larger.

 

[Valveman]

The pump doesn't hang from the pipe, it hangs from a poly rope that carries the weight. They will also install a torque arrestor on the pump to keep it from twisting the pipe off.

Pumps should never be held by a rope, as that will cause them to kick up sideways in the well and wear a hole in the casing, motor, or both. I would never use rope or cable in a well as that is just something that can come loose and cause a rat’s nest that will keep you from being able to pull the pump. If the pipe isn’t strong enough to hold the pump, use better pipe.

They will actually install 2 torque arrestors. One at the pump and one midway on the drop pipe.

Torque arrestors are also something that will swell and get hard, then you will not be able to get the pump out of the well. If VFD’s had as soft a start as the manufacturer claims, there would be no torque to arrest. The main problem with torque is wearing out the wire in the well. If you use double jacketed wire, tape it properly, and eliminate repetitive cycling, torque is not an issue.

 

[Valveman]

I would strongly recommend upgrading from brass to stainless check valves. The extra cost is going to be very small, maybe an extra $10 each. The brass ones installed with my original well were pretty corroded after 10 years.

Pulling the pump to replace them is north of a thou$and.

We don't use pitiless adaptors here so I don't know about that, but if a stainless one is available, I would opt for that also.

The installer may well tell you that it isn't necessary and that brass is good enough, but he doesn't have to pay for pulling the string and installing new ones, you pay him.

The reason brass check valves will corrode is because they are no longer really brass. The government made us take the lead out of all brass, and what is left is an alloy that has too much copper, which will turn green and corrode like the Statue of Liberty.

You should use a stainless check valve, and you will need a special one made for VFD type systems. The low flow and spinning action of the water coming from a VFD type pump makes the check valves rattle and wear quickly. There are special check valves made for VFD's that do not spin and rattle like normal checks. And I recommend having only one check valve at the pump, as any additional check valves will eventually start causing a water hammer on pump start. And any check valve above ground will cause a negative pressure in the underground pipe, which can draw in mud and contamination from the ditch.

 

[Valveman]

The flow rate is whatever the pump will produce at static water level.

The production of the well can be different volumes from different levels. When pumping only 10 GPM the pumping level may never get deeper than say 300'. But when pumping 20 GPM the pumping level may pull down to 470'. Testing the well at the maximum flow rate you will use can let you determine the actual pumping level, and therefore lets you determine the actual size of the pump needed.

I helped customers replace a couple of less than 2 year old Aquavars just yesterday. They couldn't handle the heat and dirt they get when installed outside. Make sure your VFD is in a clean (lint free) room with air conditioning, as they produce a lot of heat and need lots of clean air.

 

[Pettrix]

Valveman,

I appreciate the input but can you PLEASE stop slamming VFD's in every post you make? It's getting old. We get it, you don't sell VFD's, you sell CSVs and have a personal investment in seeing that CSV's sell.

I like the dialogue but the constant attack and slams on VFDs gets old.

I helped customers replace a couple of less than 2 year old Aquavars just yesterday. They couldn't handle the heat and dirt they get when installed outside. Make sure your VFD is in a clean (lint free) room with air conditioning, as they produce a lot of heat and need lots of clean air.

If VFD’s had as soft a start as the manufacturer claims

I have a customer right now who has been replacing a sensor or the VFD controller every year with his VFD system.
so he is stuck replacing the VFD every year .

 

[Pettrix]

Couldn't the sub cable be used to pull out a pump if needed? They are pretty strong, aren't they?

 

[Egon]

The production of the well can be different volumes from different levels. When pumping only 10 GPM the pumping level may never get deeper than say 300'. But when pumping 20 GPM the pumping level may pull down to 470'. Testing the well at the maximum flow rate you will use can let you determine the actual pumping level, and therefore lets you determine the actual size of the pump needed.

When pumping if the level stays static then the input should equal the pump rate. If the level doesn't stay static you don't know what the recharge rate is.

A cable or rope is often att he'd to the pump so fishing expeditions don't happen.

 

[Valveman]

Valveman,

I appreciate the input but can you PLEASE stop slamming VFD's in every post you make? It's getting old. We get it, you don't sell VFD's, you sell CSVs and have a personal investment in seeing that CSV's sell.

I like the dialogue but the constant attack and slams on VFDs gets old.

I know, I know. But I am not really slamming VFD's. I am just repeating what I hear from others everyday. I had rather try to keep people from making a mistake, than help them get out from under those mistakes a year or two later.

 

[Valveman]

When pumping if the level stays static then the input should equal the pump rate.

When that happens the static level and the pumping level are the same.

If the level doesn't stay static you don't know what the recharge rate is.

Agreed. You have to maintain a level when pumping X amount of water to determine the pumping depth.

A cable or rope is often att he'd to the pump so fishing expeditions don't happen.

Many times people try to pull a pump with that rope or cable. When it breaks and the whole thing goes south, the rope or cable make it almost impossible to fish.

 

[the old grind]

Understand that VFDs and CPVs are apples and oranges, the former being oversold IMO for the presumed benefit of energy savings. Watt/hp remains pretty much the same regardless of voltage or phase config.

VFDs do allow motor-specific tuning to a high degree on current draw, slow start ramps, o'load trip outs, etc. For their few $hun they can make life easy for any 3PH motor they're properly matched to (flexible, there) esp reducing starting torque. Doing anything with less energy consumed is quite a stretch, but one might be able to use a lighter ga wire. If they go south there IS no tinkering, only replacement/setup. They ARE commonly used on very high HP community system pump where flow rates and power requirements vary considerably by the hour.

One should never ask an electrical wire to do more than support it's own weight. Poly rope is typically slippery and will outlast wire in a wet environment. (I'm confident with metal pipe, but with poly pipe the rope is reassuring, better than nothing. :laughing

The CPVs work with the tank and beyond and their primary purpose IIRC is to maintain constant pressure. Reduce cycling would be a nice side benefit if proven, but as I understand it there are particular pumps/brands more or less well suited to using them as well.*

I'll go back to the wiki page on CPVs, because IIRC the benefit/viewpoint vm prefers seems to be perfectly valid, but reading twice wasn't enough for this old guy to fully grasp why/how. One thing I missed if it was even there, was whether typical (regular?) extremes of usage (200gal/day, 200gal/week ..) could mitigate any advantage. Perhaps they are best suited ot the more shallow wells where torque or pulling to service may be less scary.

btw, I'm totally enjoying this 'class'. Gentlemen, please continue. :thumbsup:

* (Where/how would we find out which is which.)

 

[Pettrix]

I know, I know. But I am not really slamming VFD's. I am just repeating what I hear from others everyday. I had rather try to keep people from making a mistake, than help them get out from under those mistakes a year or two later.

Well, if the VFD controller goes bad. I have a 5-year parts and labor on the motor, pump and controller. The motor & pumps last 20+ years. The controllers are not as stout, I will give you that, but they are a few hundred dollars to replace.

I will leave it at that.

 

[Pettrix]

Goulds and Franklin recommend multiple check valves in the drop line. On their site, they say at least 2 but up to 4 are good. They claim it actually stops water hammering and protects the piping from extreme back pressure.

I am just going by what the engineers at Goulds and Franklin state.

 

[Haoleguy]

Pettrix- You should be in good shape with the system you're installing. I nearly went Goulds but ended up with Sta-Rite/Pentek. My pump is 30gpm and the motor is 5hp which is controlled by VFD. My use is primarily vineyard irrigation for 6-8 hrs straight for 5 to 7 days at a time directly from the well with very small expansion tank...not a volume holding tank....Gary

 

[Valveman]

Understand that VFDs and CPVs are apples and oranges, the former being oversold IMO for the presumed benefit of energy savings. Watt/hp remains pretty much the same regardless of voltage or phase config.

I don’t really think they are apples and oranges. They both deliver variable flow and maintain a constant pressure. But how they do this is certainly apples and oranges. But as you say VFD’s are being oversold by claiming they save energy when they do not.

VFDs do allow motor-specific tuning to a high degree on current draw, slow start ramps, o'load trip outs, etc. For their few $hun they can make life easy for any 3PH motor they're properly matched to (flexible, there) esp reducing starting torque. Doing anything with less energy consumed is quite a stretch, but one might be able to use a lighter ga wire. If they go south there IS no tinkering, only replacement/setup. They ARE commonly used on very high HP community system pump where flow rates and power requirements vary considerably by the hour.

CSV’s are also used on very high HP community system pumps where the flow rates vary considerably, as they deliver variable rates of water at a constant pressure the same as a VFD.

One should never ask an electrical wire to do more than support it's own weight. Poly rope is typically slippery and will outlast wire in a wet environment. (I'm confident with metal pipe, but with poly pipe the rope is reassuring, better than nothing. :laughing

I have pulled many pumps by the wire when needed. If the pump was installed close to the bottom of the well and doesn’t have far to fall, I would not use a rope or cable. But if the pump could fall a long ways, I would use a SS cable instead of a rope. And either will cause a rat’s nest in the well and not let the pump come out if you break or drop the rope or cable.

The CPVs work with the tank and beyond and their primary purpose IIRC is to maintain constant pressure. Reduce cycling would be a nice side benefit if proven, but as I understand it there are particular pumps/brands more or less well suited to using them as well.*

Yes some pumps work better (have more HP drop) than others when used with a CSV. Franklin is the only one now claiming their pump will not work with any kind of restriction. I don’t really think that is true and that they just don’t want you to benefit from longer pump life caused by a CSV. But if they want to say those things, I just say use any pump but a Franklin, as any of the others work fine with a CSV.

I'll go back to the wiki page on CPVs, because IIRC the benefit/viewpoint vm prefers seems to be perfectly valid, but reading twice wasn't enough for this old guy to fully grasp why/how. One thing I missed if it was even there, was whether typical (regular?) extremes of usage (200gal/day, 200gal/week ..) could mitigate any advantage. Perhaps they are best suited ot the more shallow wells where torque or pulling to service may be less scary.

The CSV is a very simple valve, but because of how it affects pumps, it has a very complicated explanation. A CSV is not nearly as advantageous on a system that only uses 200 gallons per day or per week as it is a more heavily used water system. But even on those lightly used systems the CSV will allow the use of a much smaller pressure tank and deliver those 200 gallons per day at a constant pressure instead of continually varying pressure as with a large pressure tank. CSV’s work equally well with deep pumps as well as shallow pumps. But a deep pump with a high static is a little bit of a problem as I will discuss later.

 

[Valveman]

Well, if the VFD controller goes bad. I have a 5-year parts and labor on the motor, pump and controller. The motor & pumps last 20+ years. The controllers are not as stout, I will give you that, but they are a few hundred dollars to replace.

I will leave it at that.

Yeah is all sounds really inviting. But a 5 year warranty isn’t much consolation when you wake up to no water coming out of the faucets. These are the stories I hear everyday. “Replaced the controller 2-3 times under warranty. Replaced the pump/motor once under warranty, while being out of water for a day or two each time waiting on repairs. As soon as the warranty was expired we got hit with a bill to replace everything. Tired of the problems with the VFD and want to change, but have wire too small ditched under the driveway, which has to be changed out to have any other option.”

Goulds and Franklin recommend multiple check valves in the drop line. On their site, they say at least 2 but up to 4 are good. They claim it actually stops water hammering and protects the piping from extreme back pressure.

I am just going by what the engineers at Goulds and Franklin state.

Yeah that all sounds really good, works well on paper, and a lot of people get away with it. And if the only goal is to keep the pump from spinning backwards, more than one check might be a good idea. But these are the stories I hear everyday. “I hear and feel a loud thump when the pump comes on and/or goes off. I keep splitting a pipe or fittings at the top of the well.” On larger pumps I also hear “I keep shattering the thrust bearing in the motor.” All of these problems are caused by having multiple check valves, and the problems go away when the extra check valves are removed.

Water hammer from the extra check valves actually CAUSES the extreme backpressure they are trying to avoid. And again if the VFD actually gives the soft start/soft stop they claim, there would be no surge or water hammer that required an extra check valve to mitigate. But maybe you will be one of the lucky ones.

 

[Valveman]

Pettrix- You should be in good shape with the system you're installing. I nearly went Goulds but ended up with Sta-Rite/Pentek. My pump is 30gpm and the motor is 5hp which is controlled by VFD. My use is primarily vineyard irrigation for 6-8 hrs straight for 5 to 7 days at a time directly from the well with very small expansion tank...not a volume holding tank....Gary

The Pentek Intellidrive is the newest version of their VFD that is supposed to solve all the problems of their older versions. I have been hearing that same story now for about 30 years. I don’t think the new Pentek has been out long enough to know anything, but I doubt that it will be any better than the older versions. We have been replacing VFD’s with CSV’s on vineyards and other similar systems since 1993.

I don’t bash VFD’s because I make a competing product. I make a competing product because I got bashed by VFD’s. After studying electrical engineering and getting back to work at my family owned pump business 30+ years ago, I thought VFD’s were the coolest thing. I could have built one of my own, but there were several models already on the market, so I just got good at programming and installing them. But when my customers started calling with problems, I had to take a step back. VFD’s were not saving energy as I had been led to believe. They were not making pumps last longer as the salesman had told me. And I was having multiple problems with bearing currents, harmonics, resonance frequency vibration, stray voltage, radio frequency interference, and many other things that I was not told about.

My customers did not blame the VFD. They didn’t know if it was a Yaksuka, Tojibsu, or what brand of equipment they had. All they knew was that I was not keeping their water supply running dependably. So I got the blame and lost customers because of VFD’s. When I got tired of being bashed by VFD’s, I figured out a way to duplicate the performance of a VFD by using a simple and dependable valve. In 1993 I went back and replaced every VFD I had installed with a CSV, and I have never looked back.

Now having said all of that, the pump system in this thread is not a very good candidate for a CSV. A 2HP, 13 GPM pump with a static water level of 220’ will have a backpressure of 192 PSI when using a CSV. And while a 192 PSI backpressure is not a problem for the pump and/or the well pipe and the CSV would work fine, it is a little more backpressure than we like to handle with a CSV.

I would have tested the well, figured out the actual pumping level, and set the appropriate pump so as not to have that much backpressure. When you don’t know how much or from how deep the well will produce, installing an extra large pump at the deepest setting is the only option. But even then, it is only a 13 GPM pump, so I would have just put in a couple of 80 gallon size pressure tanks and had a system that cost less and was more dependable than a VFD.

Also with 4.5" casing the VFD needs to be set up for the pump to flow a minimum of about 5 GPM required for motor cooling. So you would need a little larger tank, as the pump should be cycling on/off when using less than 5 GPM.

Working between 5 GPM and 13 GPM isn't much variation for a VFD or a CSV, which is another reason I would have just used a couple of tanks and no VFD.

 

[speedbump]

Well, if the VFD controller goes bad. I have a 5-year parts and labor on the motor, pump and controller. The motor & pumps last 20+ years. The controllers are not as stout, I will give you that, but they are a few hundred dollars to replace.

I just started reading this thread and there is a lot of good stuff here. I have to totally agree with the two pro's that are commenting here. The only thing I have to say is about the above quote. If you actually believe that a pump and motor will last 20 plus years, you are listening to the wrong people. Seven years is a pretty good life for anybody's pump and motor these days.