Egon
Epic Contributor
Your water source is cracks in the bedrock?
Well Drilled - Results
- Thread starter Pettrix
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Your water source is cracks in the bedrock?
Valveman
Platinum Member
Well I stand corrected on one count. I just checked and you can get a 4" shroud in 4.5" casing. But boy is that a tight fit. However, that does solve one of your problems as that will force water past the motor even though the pump is being fed from above. The tight fit of the shroud might make it tricky to pull and set the pump, but the tight fit is a good thing for cooling the motor.
With a 4" shroud on a 3.5" pump, the motor can get adequate cooling with flow as low as 1.2 GPM. Being submerged in water isn't enough to cool the motor. There has to be .5 feet per second flow past the motor. Even if the pump was set in a huge lake or a well that is 10 feet in diameter, the motor could overheat without a shroud. If there is no natural flow past the motor from the lake or big well, you can be pumping nice cool water while the water around the motor is boiling and overheating the motor. For this reason a shroud is actually more important in a large diameter well than a small diameter well. That is only if the pump is set above all perforations. If the pump is set down below any perforations, a shroud is as important as it is when installing the pump in a lake.
A 4" shroud in 4.5" casing is such a tight fit that if you drop something like a pebble the size of a pellet down the well, the pump may never come out of the well. But it will allow for proper motor cooling when setting the pump below the perforations.
However, the shroud will not help if you have cascading water. If I found water from 220' to 500', I would only perforate maybe 40' at the bottom. Then I would gravel pack the annular space between the 6.5" hole and the 4.5" casing. The water from 220' could flow down the outside of the well through the gravel and enter at the bottom perforations without cascading in the well and churning up the water.
If the water from up high is weak and just slowly runs down the side of the casing, it may not cause the churning effect. But if there is a little stream or two pouring in from up top, it can really stir up the water and make the pump lose prime. Or if you do not pump the well hard enough to draw the pumping level down below maybe 400', there should be enough depth of water to stop the churning before the water gets to the pump. If the driller has done this in that area before, he probably knows which way the water enters the well and should be able to make it work.
Valveman
Platinum Member
Well if you want to compare to a VFD system you would need a CSV1A/3gpm and a 44 gallon size tank. The 44 gallon tank would also be needed with the VFD system, so that is a wash. The CSV1A/3gpm would be about $200. I am guessing the larger wire, a single phase motor, and a deluxe motor control box would cost an extra $1000. Then you could deduct the price of the VFD controller, which I am guessing at $1200 to $2000. So because of the long length of large wire there probably isn't much difference in the price of the VFD and CSV system.
But the smaller wire is how they lock you into replacing the VFD controller a time or three. Sure they may warranty it if it quits in the first 5 years. But 5 years and 1 day later the cost will be all yours. And the VFD will shorten the life of the motor. So even though the up front cost will be about the same, over a 20-30 year life, the VFD system can cost many thousands of dollars more than a normal single phase system, which is exactly why people who make their living selling pumps push the VFD system.
Using a couple of 80 gallon tanks and no CSV would cost a bit more, but would probably last as long as the CSV system.
Now don't get me wrong. In spite of the extra cost in the long run, there are many advantages to a VFD system like being able to use smaller wire. It will also deliver constant pressure to the house or sprinklers, and will work with a very small tank the same as a CSV system. It is just that I believe the old saying, "when there are more than one way to accomplish the same job, the simplest way is always the best way".
Valveman
Platinum Member
With a pump that small you have to figure out if the "pressure waxes and waned" because the pump is cycling on and off while using water, or if the pressure just stays low because the pump cannot produce enough flow. If the pump is cycling on and off while showering, simply adding a CSV1A will fix that and give you strong constant pressure to the house. If the pump is not cycling, and the pressure just stays low while showering, then you need a larger pump AND a CSV to give you the volume and constant pressure needed.
OP
Pettrix
Platinum Member
I talked to the pump driller and he said that in 30+ years he has NEVER lost a pump due to a torque arrestor and/or pump shroud in a 4.5" well casing.
He also stated that the wells require the PVC casings because wells can collapse and fill in with sediments. He said the things they do in other states is not the same as here. Geology changes and what works out east doesn't work out west. The PVC casings are a safety measure to prevent collapsing of the well which would require abandoning and drilling another $8k well + $6k well pump. Costing the homeowner $14k in a lost well vs a PVC pipe casing for a few hundred dollars.
He also stated that the wells require the PVC casings because wells can collapse and fill in with sediments. He said the things they do in other states is not the same as here. Geology changes and what works out east doesn't work out west. The PVC casings are a safety measure to prevent collapsing of the well which would require abandoning and drilling another $8k well + $6k well pump. Costing the homeowner $14k in a lost well vs a PVC pipe casing for a few hundred dollars.
OP
Pettrix
Platinum Member
So a non-VFD setup with the two 80-gallon tanks, etc. would be around what? parts & labor $6k?
Qapla
Veteran Member
I fully understand how drilling a well in the SW Desert area of the country is different than it is here - I can still hear the words of the guy who drilled our well over 40 years ago when I asked him why 'that exact spot' he chose from the location where we wanted the well. "Hey, this is Florida - poke a hole anywhere and you are going to hit water," then, as he looked up towards the sky, "This is where I can stand up my truck!" The well was going in a wooded area.
Valveman
Platinum Member
30 years ago the VFD would have cost and extra $10,000, but I would have tried to talk you into it anyway, telling you how cool they are and how much energy they save. Which would have been a lie as I learned later that VFD's do not save energy and do not make pumps last longer. Just like cell phones and calculators, VFD's have gotten a lot cheaper over the years, but they still can't save energy or make pumps last longer.
The cost difference depends on how much your installer charges for pressure tanks and/or a VFD. He probably charges $1000-$1200 a piece for those tanks, which you can get for 500 a piece. He also probably charges $1200-$2000 for a VFD, which you can get for probably $300 from driveswharehouse.com.
But even if there is no difference in up front cost between these two systems, I guarantee you will pay 2-3 times as much over the next 20 years to keep the VFD system working. And even though VFD's do not save energy, they are still cool, as constant pressure is cool anyway you do it.
bigdeano
Platinum Member
You can just put a pressure regulator after the pressure tank like I did. Been working fine for 16 years.
Valveman
Platinum Member
That gives you constant pressure in the house while the well pump is still cycling itself to death. You can get away with that if you don't use much water, like for irrigation. Try that with a heat pump, drip system, or just varied flow irrigation and you would have bought 4 new pumps in 16 years.
The CSV gives you the constant pressure in the house AND keeps the pump from cycling. Saving the pump from all those cycles is what the CSV was designed to do. The fact that is also gives you constant pressure in the house like a regulator is just gravy on top.
Qapla
Veteran Member
:scratchchin:
Not sure what type of irrigation "doesn't use much water". When we design an irrigation system for a house that uses a well the first thing we do is a "flow test" to determine the GPM the pump is delivering at 35-40 PSI - then we design the system to use most of that amount so the pump will run the entire time the irrigation is on.
When properly done, the system will not cycle.
On those rare wells that "overproduce" for the size yard we have to irrigate - we use the CSV ... because it works!
bigdeano
Platinum Member
As far as I know there's nothing in the pump that is damaged by going on and off. The contacts in the pressure switch eventually wear out, but it hasn't happened yet. I've used it to water the garden with a sprinkler and it's cycled all day once a week in summertime. Hasn't seemed to hurt it. It's only a 1/2 hp pump, maybe it's different with bigger ones.
check
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Well, I can't exactly see, but I assume that is the case.
check
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Keeping in mind that the static level is only 20 feet from the surface, and so the main resistance from pumping water through 385 feet of pipe is friction, how much wouls a CAV1A cost? I certainly don't want to pull up all that pipe and replace the pump.
Egon
Epic Contributor
Contacts can get pitted. Thrust wear on each start up. Higher amp rates and heat at starting. Tubing movement and power supply line movement. Just a few that come to mind.
Valveman
Platinum Member
Sorry I meant 電oesn稚 use much water like if ONLY used in the house and you DON探 have any irrigation.
That is what we call matching the irrigation to the pump, which was the only right way to do it before the CSV. But I would guess that 90% of all irrigation systems are not set up properly like that, and the pump cycles to death.
But with a CSV you can match the irrigation to the yard and not the pump. You can still have a large zone where needed like in the back yard. But you can have a medium size zone in the side yard and a small bubbler or drip system down the front driveway. And the CSV will keep the pressure constant and not let the pump cycle no matter the size of the irrigation zone.
Thanks, yes it works. And there are other benefits from the CSV as well. One is that when you match the irrigation to the pump, you are using all the water the pump can produce. So if you try to take a shower while you are irrigating, the shower and sprinkler pressure will be really low. With the CSV you can downsize the irrigation zones a little bit so you have water left for the house. This way you can take a shower and not even know the sprinklers are running.
The CSV can also be a water saving device. Many times even good irrigators will have to overlap or over water certain areas, just to use enough water to keep the pump from cycling. You don't have to do that with a CSV. You can run only the sprinklers that are needed, which also means you are using only the amount of water that is needed, and nothing is wasted.
Burned contacts in the pressure switch are just the first sign that you are cycling the pump too much. EVERYTHING in a pump system is destroyed by cycling. The points in the pressure switch, bladder in the tank, check valve seat, start capacitor and relay, pump shaft and coupling, thrust bearing in the motor, and even the motor windings are all destroyed from the pump cycling on and off.
The smaller the pump the less it cycles and the less cycling hurts the pump. But make no mistake, every time the pump starts it causes damage. The bearing is running dry until the motor gets up to speed, the windings start with high amperage and heat, the torque twist everything around, the motor temp goes from one extreme to the other, and many other problems are created by cycling a pump on and off.
Watering once a week in the summertime is very lightly using the pump compared to someone who waters everyday of the week and all year long.
A CSV1A is only about $200, and I don't know why you would have to pull the pump. Yes the high static level means that friction loss is the main resistance. And that can be a problem. Not having enough resistance, as with a high static level, can cause the impellers to go into an unthrust condition. This causes the top of the impellers to grind off. Not having enough resistance on the pump also causes it to produce more water than you are using, which can make the on/off cycling even worse.
A CSV will keep extra resistance on the pump and prevent it from producing too much water and cycling itself to death. The added resistance of the CSV also eliminates upthrust problems.
Yeah it is a lot like cold starting a car engine. Everything wears a little until the oil gets to circulating. So if you cold started a car engine 100 times per day, the engine would not last as long as if it only started once per day. But you understand that so I am just preaching to the choir here.
Thanks!
OP
Pettrix
Platinum Member
Should I go with the tried & true BRASS pitless adapter or the new stainless steel pitless adapters? 1 1/4" inch
I found an American Granby. It's 304 stainless and NSF/ANSI certified with a 6,000 LB rating capacity.
I found an American Granby. It's 304 stainless and NSF/ANSI certified with a 6,000 LB rating capacity.
Qapla
Veteran Member
Where the CSV really helps is with many of the new "regulations" that restrict what can be watered with what, how much water can be used and what type of irrigation is allowed (spray as opposed to drip) so you HAVE to match the zone to the space and deal with the cycling.
With many of these new regulations a CSV solves so many problems it takes some of the headaches out of installing to keep the inspectors happy. Inspectors do not care if the pump cycles (that is our problem to deal with) they just want you to irrigate how they say.
I have found that the CSV12### line works just fine for most home irrigation systems (I even have one on an apartment complex) and they only cost $63 (free shipping) straight from Cycle Stop
check
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Sorry I meant 電oesn稚 use much water like if ONLY used in the house and you DON探 have any irrigation. That is what we call matching the irrigation to the pump, which was the only right way to do it before the CSV. But I would guess that 90% of all irrigation systems are not set up properly like that, and the pump cycles to death. But with a CSV you can match the irrigation to the yard and not the pump. You can still have a large zone where needed like in the back yard. But you can have a medium size zone in the side yard and a small bubbler or drip system down the front driveway. And the CSV will keep the pressure constant and not let the pump cycle no matter the size of the irrigation zone. Thanks, yes it works. And there are other benefits from the CSV as well. One is that when you match the irrigation to the pump, you are using all the water the pump can produce. So if you try to take a shower while you are irrigating, the shower and sprinkler pressure will be really low. With the CSV you can downsize the irrigation zones a little bit so you have water left for the house. This way you can take a shower and not even know the sprinklers are running. The CSV can also be a water saving device. Many times even good irrigators will have to overlap or over water certain areas, just to use enough water to keep the pump from cycling. You don't have to do that with a CSV. You can run only the sprinklers that are needed, which also means you are using only the amount of water that is needed, and nothing is wasted. Burned contacts in the pressure switch are just the first sign that you are cycling the pump too much. EVERYTHING in a pump system is destroyed by cycling. The points in the pressure switch, bladder in the tank, check valve seat, start capacitor and relay, pump shaft and coupling, thrust bearing in the motor, and even the motor windings are all destroyed from the pump cycling on and off. The smaller the pump the less it cycles and the less cycling hurts the pump. But make no mistake, every time the pump starts it causes damage. The bearing is running dry until the motor gets up to speed, the windings start with high amperage and heat, the torque twist everything around, the motor temp goes from one extreme to the other, and many other problems are created by cycling a pump on and off. Watering once a week in the summertime is very lightly using the pump compared to someone who waters everyday of the week and all year long. A CSV1A is only about $200, and I don't know why you would have to pull the pump. Yes the high static level means that friction loss is the main resistance. And that can be a problem. Not having enough resistance, as with a high static level, can cause the impellers to go into an unthrust condition. This causes the top of the impellers to grind off. Not having enough resistance on the pump also causes it to produce more water than you are using, which can make the on/off cycling even worse. A CSV will keep extra resistance on the pump and prevent it from producing too much water and cycling itself to death. The added resistance of the CSV also eliminates upthrust problems. Yeah it is a lot like cold starting a car engine. Everything wears a little until the oil gets to circulating. So if you cold started a car engine 100 times per day, the engine would not last as long as if it only started once per day. But you understand that so I am just preaching to the choir here.
Thanks, Valveman, I think I'll get one!
OP
Pettrix
Platinum Member
Just like VFD's have pros and cons, so do CSVs.
Check with your pump manufacturer to make sure a CSV will not void their pump warranty and it will not cause premature damage by adding backpressure to the pump. Remember the fact that a CSV will make your well pump run at full power. A simple way to explain it is that the CSV makes your well pump run at full WOT power while at the same time pressing the brakes like in the car. This can damage some well pumps, plus that's a waste of electricity.
What a CSV is trying to do is mechanically stop the short cycling and uneven water pressure. It's a pressure valve, it's not a computer, it's a simple valve. So it does this by making the well pump go to full power and then it creates backpressure to the pump.
Look, this has been debated ad nauseam. Valveman sells CSV's so he of course is going to promote them. Each CSV he sells, he makes money. I doubt he is 100% unbiased since he has money in the game. I have nothing to gain, I am a consumer,
Check with your pump manufacturer to make sure a CSV will not void their pump warranty and it will not cause premature damage by adding backpressure to the pump. Remember the fact that a CSV will make your well pump run at full power. A simple way to explain it is that the CSV makes your well pump run at full WOT power while at the same time pressing the brakes like in the car. This can damage some well pumps, plus that's a waste of electricity.
What a CSV is trying to do is mechanically stop the short cycling and uneven water pressure. It's a pressure valve, it's not a computer, it's a simple valve. So it does this by making the well pump go to full power and then it creates backpressure to the pump.
Look, this has been debated ad nauseam. Valveman sells CSV's so he of course is going to promote them. Each CSV he sells, he makes money. I doubt he is 100% unbiased since he has money in the game. I have nothing to gain, I am a consumer,
