Understanding Curb Weight, GVWR, Towing and CDL requirements

[Snobdds]

@Omega-Woods, I hope you don't mind me asking a question on your thread, but it might yield some advice that is beneficial to you, as well...

I have a Kubota that weighs in at 13,000 lbs. Based on what I've read in this thread, I won't be able to trailer it without a CDL, period. But I could haul it on the back of a truck without a CDL if I could find a truck with a GVW below 26,000 lbs AND the capacity to carry 13,000 lbs. on it.

Is there such an animal? Am I looking for something like a rollback? Thanks in advance!

I want to get a Cat track machine that weighs 12k. I was told by the trailer guy here that the only way to do it is with a single cab, single axle one ton, 8k axel, tandem axle bumper pull. That is at max capacity for truck and trailer. If I was to go 10k dual axel gooseneck, it's over weight.

I have no doubt that my current F350 crew could pull it and be fine today on a 8k trailer. It seems the weight limits are not keeping up with these powerful new trucks.

 

[Squirrel Tooth Alice]

I want to get a Cat track machine that weighs 12k. I was told by the trailer guy here that the only way to do it is with a single cab, single axle one ton, 8k axel, tandem axle bumper pull. That is at max capacity for truck and trailer. If I was to go 10k dual axel gooseneck, it's over weight.

I have no doubt that my current F350 crew could pull it and be fine today on a 8k trailer. It seems the weight limits are not keeping up with these powerful new trucks.

Thanks. You're saying a tandem axle trailer with two 8k axles, bumper pull in order to minimize tongue weight on the truck rear axle, and the truck would have a GVWR of 10k (or less)?

 

[stumblinhorse]

I want to get a Cat track machine that weighs 12k. I was told by the trailer guy here that the only way to do it is with a single cab, single axle one ton, 8k axel, tandem axle bumper pull. That is at max capacity for truck and trailer. If I was to go 10k dual axel gooseneck, it's over weight.

I have no doubt that my current F350 crew could pull it and be fine today on a 8k trailer. It seems the weight limits are not keeping up with these powerful new trucks.

I have a tandem 8k GN that I use for my 12K tractor Set up. Hauls it great behind my quad cab 1 ton SB Cummins Ram. Easily within the capacity of the truck. And to any DOT officer listening in, I always stay within the 150 mile farmers exclusion…. I promise…

 

[Squirrel Tooth Alice]

Upon further review, it appears that I made an inaccurate statement here:

I have a Kubota that weighs in at 13,000 lbs. Based on what I've read in this thread, I won't be able to trailer it without a CDL, period.

Today, I found a 17000 lb. GVWR trailer listed with 13,000 lb. load capacity. So, it could handle my Kubota, with no capacity to spare. My F-250 is rated at 8,800 GVWR, which would give me a combined GVWR of 25,800.
That means this is doable, if I max out a 17k lb trailer and convince my gas 460 / 5 speed that it can pull all that weight... am I right?

 

[stumblinhorse]

Upon further review, it appears that I made an inaccurate statement here:

Today, I found a 17000 lb. GVWR trailer listed with 13,000 lb. load capacity. So, it could handle my Kubota, with no capacity to spare. My F-250 is rated at 8,800 GVWR, which would give me a combined GVWR of 25,800.
That means this is doable, if I max out a 17k lb trailer and convince my gas 460 / 5 speed that it can pull all that weight... am I right?

That is the right thing to do. Maxing out the rating of a 3/4 ton pickup that is equipped with the same stuff as a 1 ton is the only thing you can do these days without spending $5k to get a newly issue class a CDL.

 

[3 Horse Ranch]

I would not worry at all. It can be cleared up in court. Plus, the chances of being stopped is small as long as you obey all the other traffic laws and do not wreck.

There was a commercial vehicle enforcement officer in NW Washington that seemed to pick on farmers and small contractors with the two axle bumper pull trailers. I used to see him almost every day at a certain intersection with one pulled over. He liked dump trucks too, but his favorite was the two axle pull trailers. He is probably retired now.

 

[aczlan]

I don't know this site is legit or not but you can do your knowledge training and take the theory test without attending in-person classes. You still have to pass the skills test.

Nope, you now have to take a class from a registered training facility listed at: Training Provider Registry

Drivers | FMCSA

Drivers have been required to have a commercial driver's license (CDL) in order to drive certain commercial motor vehicles (CMVs) since April 1, 1992. The types of vehicles and operations requiring a CDL are outlined below. The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) has developed...

www.fmcsa.dot.gov

Regardless of the weight you are hauling in the truck, or towing on the trailer;

If "ANY combination of vehicles which has a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) whichever is greater" you are in need of CDL

From your link:

Class A: Any combination of vehicles which has a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) whichever is greater.

So a Class A CDL is required for a tow vehicle+trailer GCWR over 26K IF the trailer GVWR is over 10,001#

Class B: Any single vehicle which has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight that does not exceed 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

A Class B CDL is required for a tow vehicle GVWR over 26K with a trailer GVWR under 10,000#

Class C: Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is transporting material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR Part 172 or is transporting any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR Part 73.

A Class C CDL is required for anything that doesn't meet the weight for a Class A or B, but has 16+ passengers, or is carrying hazmat or a "select agent or toxin"

So as has been said:
Tow vehicle GVWR under 26,000# with a trailer under 10,000# (36,000# GCWR) = No CDL
Tow vehicle GVWR under 26,000# with a trailer over 10,000# AND the GCWR under 26,000# (ie: truck with 10k GVWR pulling a trailer with a 16k GVWR) = No CDL

Tow vehicle GVWR over 26k = CDL
Trailer GVWR over 10k AND GCWR over 26k = CDL

Aaron Z

 

[Squirrel Tooth Alice]

I don't know this site is legit or not but you can do your knowledge training and take the theory test without attending in-person classes. You still have to pass the skills test.

Nope, you now have to take a class from a registered training facility listed at: Training Provider Registry

I believe what Omega linked to is a legit online school to prepare you for the written "theory" test. After passing that test, you are ready to pay a "registered training facility" to provide your behind the wheel training, which prepares you for the driving test.

It appears that Ohio (and perhaps other states) provides the online training for the written "theory" test free of charge:

https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/working/training/cdl

The Ohio LTAP Center, as a program within the Ohio Department of Transportation’s Office of Local Programs, is providing CDL Theory training free of charge via eLearning.

 

[3 Horse Ranch]

Upon further review, it appears that I made an inaccurate statement here:

Today, I found a 17000 lb. GVWR trailer listed with 13,000 lb. load capacity. So, it could handle my Kubota, with no capacity to spare. My F-250 is rated at 8,800 GVWR, which would give me a combined GVWR of 25,800.
That means this is doable, if I max out a 17k lb trailer and convince my gas 460 / 5 speed that it can pull all that weight... am I right?

What is the GCWR of the truck? I believe that no matter the combination, the truck has to be licensed for the combined gross weight. I think that is what the commercial enforcement officer was getting people on. Most people license their pickup for just its weight. It may (and probably does) vary from state to state.

 

[Squirrel Tooth Alice]

What is the GCWR of the truck?

That's a great question, and one I do not know the answer to. The sticker in the door frame shows the GVWR and both axle ratings, but no GCWR. Ford's site only goes back to 2004 with the towing ratings, as far as I can find... and my truck is a 1997 F-250 HD Supercab.

But considering it has a gas engine and 3.55 gears, it can't be rated anywhere near 17,000 lbs of trailer. Likely closer to 10,000.
In which case, I'm back to the drawing board re: the best way to move my machine without a CDL.

 

[Omega Woods]

Because as soon as you start doing it for hire, all of the rules change and deciphering them is a nightmare. Not to mention that each state tacks on a few twists of their own!
Good luck with it!
David from jax

What rules change? I know how to run a business and navigate business laws but the CDL rules still apply if I'm hauling my own heavy equipment for myself.

Correct.

The 26,000 lb ONLY applies IF.....
The single vehicle has a GVWR OVER 26k
The combination is over 26K IF the trailer is over 10k
Or if passengers, schoolbus, or hazmat come into play.

So....since passengers or hazmat dont apply to you it becomes simple....

If the trailer is OVER 10k.....the combination has to stay UNDER 26k
If the trailer is UNDER 10k.....then the tow vehicle ONLY needs to stay under 26k

Got it. Your last sentence should say "36k" not "26k". But I know what you mean now.

I'm sure glad I started this thread!

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

What rules change? I know how to run a business and navigate business laws but the CDL rules still apply if I'm hauling my own heavy equipment for myself.

Got it. Your last sentence should say "36k" not "26k". But I know what you mean now.

I'm sure glad I started this thread!

If your not hauling for commercial purposes, most states your exempt. Similar to race cars, live stock and such I believe

Racers back home would get ripped non stop because they used the exemption but were "professional" racers in class A toter homes and stacker trailers

 

[bcp]

That's a great question, and one I do not know the answer to. The sticker in the door frame shows the GVWR and both axle ratings, but no GCWR. Ford's site only goes back to 2004 with the towing ratings, as far as I can find... and my truck is a 1997 F-250 HD Supercab.

From:

https://xr793.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/1997-Ford-F-Series-Heavy-Duty-Super-Duty.pdf

Bruce

 

[stumblinhorse]

That's a great question, and one I do not know the answer to. The sticker in the door frame shows the GVWR and both axle ratings, but no GCWR. Ford's site only goes back to 2004 with the towing ratings, as far as I can find... and my truck is a 1997 F-250 HD Supercab.

But considering it has a gas engine and 3.73 gears, it can't be rated anywhere near 17,000 lbs of trailer. Likely closer to 10,000.
In which case, I'm back to the drawing board re: the best way to move my machine without a CDL.

I will say this, it is less of a fine to be over your rating than driving within your rating of 26,001 without a CDL…. Sadly even completely unloaded…

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

These old fords cant pull half of what a newer truck can by the stickers. I have a 94 f350 and 06 ram 3500, no where near the 30k the say today

 

[Fixastuff]

What trucks can tow 16k but stay below the 26k gcvwr?

 

[stumblinhorse]

What trucks can tow 16k but stay below the 26k gcvwr?

Most newer 3/4 ton trucks have a GVWR of 9900. And they can tow 16k+

 

[Squirrel Tooth Alice]

Got it. Your last sentence should say "36k" not "26k". But I know what you mean now.

I believe he stated it correctly.

 

[MTGreen]

I asked this very question here a while back:

Trailer towing question class 6 truck without CDL

Gvwr is gross vehicle weight which is max with no trailer versus gcwr which is gross combined max weight truck + trailer. My understanding was that per the feds you need a CDL if your gvwr is more than 26k or if the gvwr of your truck + the gvwr of your more than 10k trailer exceeds 26k (with...

www.tractorbynet.com

Seems the consensus is unless you have and are operating under an RV or state specific farm exemption; if you want to haul a 10k gvwr trailer, your tow vehicle must have a gvwr of less than 16k. Your gvwr of your tow vehicle + gvwr of your trailer has to be less than 26001 regardless of how you load it.

Here's the FMCSA (US Feds) official definition of "commercial motor vehicle " requiring a CDL - CFR part 383.5:

"means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle is a -

(1) Combination Vehicle (Group A) - having a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater; or

(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B) - having a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater; or

(3) Small Vehicle (Group C) that does not meet Group A or B requirements but that either -

(i) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(ii) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section."

Then they go on to clarify what "gross combination weight rating" means in the same section (CFR 383.5):

"Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) is the greater of:

(1) A value specified by the manufacturer of the power unit, if such value is displayed on the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) certification label required by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or

(2) The sum of the gross vehicle weight ratings (GVWRs) or the gross vehicle weights (GVWs) of the power unit and the towed unit(s), or any combination thereof, that produces the highest value. Exception: The GCWR of the power unit will not be used to define a commercial motor vehicle when the power unit is not towing another vehicle"

 

[MTGreen]

I asked this very question here a while back:

Trailer towing question class 6 truck without CDL

Gvwr is gross vehicle weight which is max with no trailer versus gcwr which is gross combined max weight truck + trailer. My understanding was that per the feds you need a CDL if your gvwr is more than 26k or if the gvwr of your truck + the gvwr of your more than 10k trailer exceeds 26k (with...

www.tractorbynet.com

Seems the consensus is unless you have and are operating under an RV or state specific farm exemption; if you want to haul a 10k gvwr trailer, your tow vehicle must have a gvwr of less than 16k. Your gvwr of your tow vehicle + gvwr of your trailer has to be less than 26001 regardless of how you load it.

Here's the FMCSA (US Feds) official definition of "commercial motor vehicle " requiring a CDL - CFR part 383.5:

"means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle is a -

(1) Combination Vehicle (Group A) - having a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater; or

(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B) - having a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater; or

(3) Small Vehicle (Group C) that does not meet Group A or B requirements but that either -

(i) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(ii) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section."

Then they go on to clarify what "gross combination weight rating" means in the same section (CFR 383.5):

"Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) is the greater of:

(1) A value specified by the manufacturer of the power unit, if such value is displayed on the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) certification label required by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or

(2) The sum of the gross vehicle weight ratings (GVWRs) or the gross vehicle weights (GVWs) of the power unit and the towed unit(s), or any combination thereof, that produces the highest value. Exception: The GCWR of the power unit will not be used to define a commercial motor vehicle when the power unit is not towing another vehicle"

Thus my recommendation for a 14k flat bottom dump trailer registered with the DMV/MVD as a 10k, keep your tow vehicle under 12k, and make sure your excavator hauled in the trailer is under 10k or so depending on the unloaded weight of your trailer