Two speed Electric motor question

[beowulf]

Posting a pic of the diagram on the motor - appears to be a diagram for a low speed and a high speed setting. The high and low speed settings have always been controlled by the timer panel. BTW - I found on-line the manual for the timer/control (Intermatic P1352ME) which contains wiring instructions at that timer panel. It appears that this timer (expensive) was placed into the same panel box which contained an old manual timer panel - I discovered this because there was an old diagram in the door of that box for an old manual set up. When they installed the two speed motor they put in the new electronic timer in the same box and wired it up along with the motor. The wiring in the timer box has not been changed so the wiring issue is at the motor - or some other issue with the motor.

Anyway, here is the pic taken from the side of the motor - but two separate diagrams for wiring for low and high speeds. What I had was for both speeds controlled by the timer.

 

[beowulf]

Reading your OP carefully, makes me understand that the motor DOES work, slow and fast if you interchange connections. The start circuits or capacitors must be in the motor. The Intermatic just switches the power, via contacts or using solid state. So, I suspect that it could be the control and not the motor.

When I reinstalled the pump after the bearings and seals were replaced, I could activate the high speed with the high speed button at the timer box. But if I hit the low speed button I only had a humming sound. So I switched the hot lines (red and black) between the high and low speed connections at the timer. After I did that, when I hit the high speed button I had a humming sound, but when I hit the low speed button the motor ran, but at high speed. Do not know what that means as I am a bit out of my element - just trying a few things that might help diagnose the issue, or leave me with fewer choices.

 

[Industrial Toys]

What is the model of the intermatic timer?

When you operate those pushbutton switches, does the corresponding output just latch on and off? I don't think BOTH should be on at the sme time. One or the other.

 

[RoyKing]

I thought maybe the panel had motor start circuits but it doesn't, does the motor have external caps? If it doesn't you've lost low speed, and if it worked before the bearings repair, so I'd say the rebuilder screwed it up. I'd return to them

 

[beowulf]

What is the model of the intermatic timer?

When you operate those pushbutton switches, does the corresponding output just latch on and off? I don't think BOTH should be on at the sme time. One or the other.

Intermatic P1352ME

If you push high it runs on high, if you push low, it goes to low and visa versa. I did try once to diagnose things, and while it was running on high I kept pushing high while hitting low and then releasing the high button and it did then run on low. Whatever that means.

 

[beowulf]

I thought maybe the panel had motor start circuits but it doesn't, does the motor have external caps?/QUOTE]

RoyKing, I don't know what it means for a motor to have external caps? Nothing protrudes except for the domed cylinder on top - assumed that was capacitor.

 

[RoyKing]

So you did get it to run on low? Then get a cheap VOM meter and check the voltage for high and low. Put one lead on terminal one and then probe 2 and 3 only one of them at a time should show 220 volts. If not the timer is shot.

Another way if its is running on high turn off breaker and move wire on 2 to 3 leave the other disconnected, if runs on low its the timer

 

[Industrial Toys]

Timer must be in MODE 2 so high and low terminals are never both on at the same time. Like I said, I would first try and power it without using the timer contacts.

Hump on motor is starting capacitor. But motor starts fine.

 

[beowulf]

Another way if its is running on high turn off breaker and move wire on 2 to 3 leave the other disconnected, if runs on low its the timer

Okay, I did the above (2 to 3 and leave 3 disconnected) and when I did so, the low button ran the motor on high. Then after I reconnected the wires back to original position, high button worked to activate high speed, and low button still had that moderate humming sound. BUT then I kept pushing the low button and got it to start on low. Turned it off, pushed again and only a hum, but with persistent pushing I got it to run on low though it seemed to do so only now and then - i.e., sometimes would hum, then I could get low to run. Once low is running it keeps running and I can switch to high and back to low with sometimes hum sometimes low speed. I don't know what this all means. I would consider a faulty low switch but something is getting to the motor to make it hum. Breakers are 2 20 amp tandem breakers - I assume both are fine as when I switch the black and red on the timer I get the motor to run on high with either lead.

And I called the pool place that put in new seals and bearing - they test the motors on high and low before they go out and they said it ran fine. They said I could unhook it and bring it back and they would test it again. That seems like a good course as then I will know if it is an issue with the motor or with the timer or whatever. And if it is a motor issue, they can likely tell me what it is and perhaps fix it there. And they also told me where the wires should be connected at the motor - top - common, middle = high speed, and lower = low speed. That is how the motor is now connected.

Anyway, I will let it run on low for a while and then recheck the speed buttons. If I still have issues I will take it back to town - likely later this week.

Again, I cannot thank you guys enough for taking your time to try to help out an old guy living in the hills. So very much appreciated.

 

[RoyKing]

It is the timer, get new one , take pics of the wiring

 

[grsthegreat]

most spa pump 2 speed motors are like this




personally, ive never run one form an intermatic timer before.


but i found this online.....worth a shot

How To Wire a PE153 Digital Timer to a 2-Speed 23V Motor - INYOPools.com

 

[beowulf]

Well, the saga continues. While working outside for about 3 hours I let it run on low. Just before coming in I turned it off. Low speed would not start up again, but high speed would. Then, neither would start. Breakers are on, but nothing on either speed - not even a humming.

I will take the motor back to the pool shop (where bearings were replaced) as they offered to check out the motor. Assuming that checks out, I will then go with a new timer as Roy suggests.

grsthegreat, thanks for the post and for your research - much appreciated. The wiring diagram you show is how it is now wired - I rechecked it after the pool shop told me that was the correct wiring scheme.

 

[grsthegreat]

Before throwing out the timer, just test it. Unhook both loads out to pump and test between common and each load as you turn that load on. Should get 240 on each test.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I don't think it has solid state switching, so if it has contact issues, using a high impedence meter might not reveal messed up contacts. I never heard if in fact the timer was on MODE 2, preventing both speeds being energized at the same time..

 

[RoyKing]

The intermatic uses cheap little relays, not really good for motor starting and they are expensive, so I setup a sealed box and used 20 amp rated 110v coils to start my pump and other water valves etc. Those relays are cheap like $10.00, that way the intermatic doesn't have a load on it. Consider it

 

[kenmbz]

Agree with RoyKing, relay contacts not being pulled in would make the motor not get enough current.

 

[radios1]

pool pump motors don't use a capacitor for starting, it's not needed because the load at startup is very low, unlike a saw or compressor load. what is happening here is the start winding for the low speed is not working, that's why it just hums. maybe a bad centrifugal switch..

 

[RoyKing]

I don't think so, there is not two separate start windings for low and high, the best way to test is bring two hot lines from a breaker and wire up and test. Or get in the control box and install some jumpers.

 

[beowulf]

Okay - more information - learning as I go. As mentioned yesterday - I could not get the motor to start on either high or low by using the timer switches. So this morning: 1) I bypassed the timer all together and hooked up the high speed black wire directly to the energized hot wire coming in - the pump started on high.
2) I bypassed the timer all together and hooked up the low speed red wire directly to the energized hot wire coming in and the pump did not start on low - only had the same moderate humming sound. To make sure, I tried hooking this red wire to each hot lead coming in with same results. What is a but puzzling though is that yesterday I had it going on low and ran it for about 3 hours on low. But after turning it off it would not restart.

So, now I am thinking I may have a bad timer/control unit and a bad motor on low?

If so, and because the timers are expensive as are the two speed motors, I may have to go to (reluctantly) a new motor which has the timer built in to the motor (rather than buying a timer and a motor separately). These are variable speed motors - expensive. They say they save energy, but that is not a big factor for me as we have solar and generate more power than we use each year.

 

[Industrial Toys]

That is what troubleshooting is all about. Makes you wonder if it's jus bad luck or there was a sequence of events.

Did you take the motor back to the shop?

I never like combined things.