Tractor or Skid Steer?

puter · Jan 15, 2004

I've been looking and planning on getting a tractor for awhile now for a myriad of projects around a pretty wooded property... driveway/trail maintenance, drainage and electric lines, outbuilding foundations, old stump removal, general landscaping stuff, etc.

I have little experience with either tractors or skid steers and would appreciate some input as to how to decide which piece of equipment would be more appropriate. I don't anticipate doing any mowing with this equipment.

I'd like to be able to respond to the "job of the day" and reasonably easily switch between pallet forks, a dozer blade, bucket, small backhoe, etc. Given that, do CUTs offer any advantages over a skid steer? Thanks!

txdon · Jan 15, 2004

Welcome, Puter, To get the best informed answer to that question a description of your land would help, hilly, size, soil, rocks, and more detail of the jobs you intend to do. What do you want to do with the dozer blade build a pond push trees (size) or make a road etc etc...? Do you need it for snow blowing/pushing?
On the way to my tractor last week I saw a skid steer doing some landscaping on the side of the highway. He was carrying a pallet of grass (Texas) up a small incline. it had rained about a 1/2 inch the night before and the little skid steer was just spinning it's tires going nowhere. I thought to myself he needs a tractor with quick attach front forks or he is going to waste an entire day just spinning his wheels. I would have to say get a tractor.

Chechnya · Jan 15, 2004

Skid steer.

Attachments.
Manuverability.
Accesability.
Cost.

All factors that make you want a skid steer. Out of two kubota l35's and a new holland ls170 i prefer the ls170 for grading and picking up stuff. My landscapers are using two bobcats for my job too. They have no trouble lifting the sod off a semi-truck and moving it around.

Out of the bobcat, new holland the case ive driven latley, i still prefer a new holland.

Phred · Jan 15, 2004

A skid steer is a far better loader than any tractor since you can turn on a dime and maneuver in an incredible manner.

For all else the tractor is better.
I also think the tractor is more versatile. You can do anything a skidsteer can do, just a little slower in the loader department. Try baling hay with a skidsteer.

I will warn you that it is a lot easier to turn over a skid steer than a tractor. Also traction can be an issue on a skid steer.

Attachments are not an issue, IMHO, since many tractors will accept any skidsteer implement.

Fred

foreman81 · Jan 15, 2004

I can predict the outcome of this, hands down a CUT. The lift capacities of the newer loaders are virtually the same as the skidsteers and you get the versatility of a tractor with endless attachments. But here are the ups and downs of skidsteers I found beign priviledged to drive bith types regularly in a nursery. I won't comment on the versatility of CUT since you are afterall in TBN.

The downs :The skidsteers make really awfull skid marks when you maneuver, even at the slowest speeds. They'll tare up turf, distrub gravel and mark pavement like you wouldn't believe, especially with a load. The skids bounce around alot in uneven terrains which makes it hard to safely lift and carry heavy loads such as loaded pallets or fully loaded buckets of stones (you tend to realise that when the owner of a 2003 dodge ram is looking at you while you dump raw materials in the back of it). Unskilled operators are a definite liability in this case. Visibility is eliminated when you are carrying high pallets thus safety is an issue when unloading pallets in the busy parking lot of a nursery in spring. Rear visibilty is also limited given the small VW beetle like window. The interior gets very messy after one day's work and you have to periodically get a shopvac and clean the pedals and get that watery muck out. Some skids have drain holes in the cab (Bobcat) an some don't (Gehl). You have to change the tires every year or two depending on use.

The ups : They make very quick work of digging, leveling, loading and dumping in almost every context. They are maneuverable as hell and can get in almost everywhere. They are easy enough to maintain and very very tough. For heavy constant loader work, it's well designed and handles hydraulic heat well with its stong cylinders. Changing implements takes all but 10 sec and you don't need to dismount. Incredible breakout capacity makes ripping and power lifting easy, but high lift capacities stink. Indeed very quick but...

I find the downs unacceptable in a home/private context and the ups good in a business type setting when time is money. For these reasons I vouch for a CUT over skidsteers. Besides they look better parked in a garage and have better resale.

puter · Jan 15, 2004

Thanks for the responses thus far... The property is mostly wooded gentle hills. Lots of 40-70' trees. Some lumbering was done on the property a few years back so, most of the large girth trees are gone. The soil is almost like compost, very few rocks.

Major jobs are redoing a 500' driveway, maintaining and getting rid of the major tire ruts in the logging road, digging footings, electrical, and drainage lines, plowing snow, making a lawn out of field, etc.

There's a 200x80ft pond (dug in the 60's) that is now about 2' deep throughout that I'd love to deepen... but, from what I've read here, that doesn't sound like a good fit for any CUT. Been quoted 5-7K to have someone come in and do that job.

And I'd like to put in a pool... another job that posts here suggest is probably not well suited for a CUT.

Besides that, there's lots of heavy things to be moved from here to there: downed logs, roofing materials, gravel, mulch, pavers, etc.

I didn't realize skid steers are easier to tip... that concerns me. At one point the logging road curves up an elevation change of 20-30ft in just a few hundred feet... with a pretty steep drop off on one side. The logging guys obviously got up and down it with trees ok, but those logging guys are all crazy, aren't they?

DK35vince · Jan 15, 2004

puter,
Its not so much side to side that skidsteers tip easy, its front to rear because of their very short wheel base.
I have had a skid steer sitting on its nose more than once . /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
I also learned years ago not to drive up the ramps on a beavertail trailer with no bucket on the front for weight, they will do a wheelie you won't soon forget ! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

snowbound · Jan 16, 2004

( And I'd like to put in a pool... another job that posts here suggest is probably not well suited for a CUT.)

Rent an excavator for a couple days for that.

( Besides that, there's lots of heavy things to be moved from here to there: downed logs, roofing materials, gravel, mulch, pavers, etc.)

A CUT can have a loader that is as strong as that on many skid steers. It's not hard to find a CUT that can lift what a lot of skid steers can lift.

( I didn't realize skid steers are easier to tip... that concerns me. At one point the logging road curves up an elevation change of 20-30ft in just a few hundred feet... with a pretty steep drop off on one side. The logging guys obviously got up and down it with trees ok, but those logging guys are all crazy, aren't they?)

My property was once logged - there's decaying log trailer parts about halfway up my hill. And it's a more serious hill than you describe. The logging guys are totally nuts - always have been - but the logging guys that did this used horses, not skid steers.

If you are worried about hills then skid steer sounds like the wrong answer. Maybe a compact track loader would be better. I'm thinking about that for the crazy part of my property.

Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt

yooperdave · Jan 16, 2004

Have you considered a power trac? Well worth taking a look at.

Yooper Dave

EquipmentJunkie · Jan 16, 2004

Skid steers are wonderful machines. The loader performance and attachments capability (especially hydraulic-powered) make them extremely useful. The New Holland LX665 that I use is great for certain jobs, like moving snow and digging dirt.
However, when you get a skid steer loader off of a relatively flat, smooth surface, a tractor begins to be more appealing. The more difficut the surface, the more a tractor shines.
From the description of your application, it sounds to be a job better suited for a tractor. True, a skid steer would be better at digging up the pond. But your pond isn't huge. It would just take you longer with a tractor. You may also consider renting a skid steer to do the pond work if you can't make decent time with a tractor.
If I had to give up my tractor or skid steer, I'd would reluctantly send the skid steer loader packing. A tractor's three-point hitch, PTO power, and off-road stability are just too valuable to give up.

Dave___in___CT · Jan 16, 2004

Hi...

Check out the costs... I'll expect a skid steer and the attachhments for 'em are more expensive...
...and used stuff will likely be from commercial users... unlike CUT's & implements...

How about a used commercial backhoe/loader?
...and a supplementary tractor ?

Dave...

PineRidge · Jan 16, 2004

I think that you will find that a tractor will give you more bang for the buck. A 4WD tractor is a lot more more stable on uneven ground and the attachments are for the most part cheaper. My vote goes to the tractor. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

GareyD · Jan 16, 2004

I suggest the tractor.

My L3430 works so well for the reasons you asked about and is such a pleasure to run, that after owning both tractor and skid steer at the same time, I traded my New Holland LX485 Skid Steer for the FEL and backhoe to put on my Tractor /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now if I tackle something and the 3430 won't "Get 'er done!" ... I'll head off to the rental yard....(ain't happened yet!!)

GareyD

fishman · Jan 16, 2004

YooperDave might be on to something. I don't own one, but it appears that Powertrac incorporates some of the best things about a CUT and a skidsteer in one package. Check out the owner forum on this site.

Steven · Jan 17, 2004

I would go with a tractor.

Skid steers can be unstable off of flat surfaces. they also do a number on the ground they are operated on. spin it around a couple times and look at your lawn or new trail and it will have some nice ruts. if you have an unbelievable deal on a skid steer then I would buy it and use it as leverage on a tractor of choice. and if trade in is not up to par sell it agian and make a profit. just my opinion.

RobertN · Jan 18, 2004

I'll chime in, since I have used a few different tractors now. Over the last year, by ownership or rental I have used the following:
Kubota B8200HST 4wd CUT(Mine)
Bobcat S185 Skidsteer(Buddies) www.bobcat.com/products/item.view.jhtml?itemId=5129
Bobcat 463 kidsteer(Rental)
www.bobcat.com/products/item.view.jhtml?itemId=2783
CAT 247 Track-loader(Rental)
ASV RC30 rack-loader(Rental)
www.asvi.com/rc_30.cfm
Kubota L35-TLB(Rental)
www.kubota.com/blutility.cfm
Bobcat B250 TLB(Rental)
www.bobcat.com/products/item.view.jhtml?itemId=4934

For all around flexibilty, I would go with the ASV RC30. It is light(~3000lb), so transportation is easy. It is very flexible with the small skidsteer attach. Power is good at 31hp. Ground pressure is a measily 2.7lb/sq". Stability with the tracks on off-angles is good with the tracks. The machine easily outmanuevers a CUT, without thrashing the ground like a skid steer. As a reference, I found them new in Sacramento for $22k. Used from dealer in Sub-200 hours was about $17k.

Skid steers are GREAT! The flexibilty is much better than a CUT. First, they were originally built for work around the farm(Fisrt Bobcat's built for farm in North Dakota). They turn on a dime. You can not beat the available skidsteer attachments; even as much as I like CUT's with 3pt, the skidsteer is more flexible. Out here at least, you can rent skid steer implements, whereas I can not find rentals for 3pt pto attachments. The down side is, powered implements are expensive with hydraulic drive and all. Skid steers in general tend to be more expensive as an initial investment. S185 with a smooth and a tooth bucket ran $25k+ a year ago.
The biggest thing I see for a CUT is price. They are flexible, and have lots of less expensive 3pt/pto implements available. It's hard to beat a CUT with loader and scraper for $12-15k.

Just a few notes from the above tractors:

Kubota B8200HST-4x4 - I have had this for about five years. Overall it is a great tractor. It does not manuever tight enough for some work stuff I have done. With no down pressure on the 3pt, the post hole digger is pretty useless once the ground firms up. I have done a lot of mowing loading and scraping with it though.
ASV RC30 - Rented for a couple days. Amazing how much scraping and digging I did in moist conditions with very little disturbance to the grass and soil around me. Plenty of power for the size of the machine. I want one, but expense compared to my CUT is holding that up; would sell CUT as $$$ towards this machine. I can not say enough good about it! It was great!

Bobcat 463 - Little! But, I had to get through a small gat. At 36" wide, I squeeked through with 1/4" to spare. It did a lot of work for a tiny machine. Used in dry conditions, so skid steering worked fine. I am sure I will rent this machine again for tight access work.

Bobcat S185 - Cool machine! 56 turbo HP! This guy can realy dig. With a Hi-flow trencher attached, it trenched easily in our rock littered Gold Country soil. It's haevy though, at 6000+lbs with buckets. As a skid steer, it also can make a mess, although it is easy to clean up as you finish(except in wet stuff).

Cat 247 - This 50hp track loader worked well in wet conditions where I am sure the same size S185 Bobcat skidsteer would have gotten stuck in(Been there, done that)(got the Kubota stuck trying to do some finish work after doing majority of work with 247). It is a great machine, but big for my needs. The CAT joysticks were cool to work with too.

Kubota L35 - Great all around TLB. Power and digging were great. Manueverability limited for tight spaces though. Will use again I'm sure.

Bobcat B250 - Cool TLB. Has standard skidsteer attach fro front bucket, with plumbed hydraulics to go with it(can use hydraulic driven implements). Used to finish where Kubota L35 had problems with access. This unit has 4-wheel steering, allowing for tight manuevering. Note Bobcat rented this machine for less than the local rental yard asked for the Kubota L35.

Overall I think the skid/track loader is more flexible than a CUT. The tools are amazing that work with these machines. Go look at Bobcat or ASVi's web pages and search the attachments.

For your applications, sounds like a track-loader with 4-in-1 bucket would help with general loading and moving logs, slash ect. A trencher, whether a purchase or rental, could do electrical trenches and drainage trenches. The pond would be easy with a track loader. Stability with the tracks would most likely be better with a track loader than with a CUT or skid-steer.

40Kchicks · Jan 18, 2004

Excellent post Robert.
For my poultry farm I wouldn't be without my Cat skid steer. It has proven to be the most versatile of tools. I agree with everything you said and don’t agree that a skid steer is unstable on sloped ground. Just back up the slope and work down the hill. I have tracks for mine that turn it into an unstoppable tank that will go places a CUT would never go.
Eric

Phred · Jan 18, 2004

Eric,

Thats a good point. If you go up backwards you can climb up much stepper slopes safely. A lot of guys will load them on trailers backwards for that reason.

I also like the fact that you can see the bucket on a skidsteer so well. On my utility tractor you can't see the bucket / forks well. This makes it hard to move pallets around. Your right there looking down on it with a skidsteer.

Fred

RobertN · Jan 19, 2004

Using the Skidsteers, I found backing up things a must. It says to do that in the book too. I had that S185 Bobcat on some interesting rocky terrain on one job. I had no issue with side to side stability; it was front to back. Minding what you mention, I had no iproblems. I popped wheelies a lot with an ampty bucket, but the backend ground out long before I would ever go over.

I was really impressed with the Cat track-loader. I had not used the joysticks before. Those worked well. It also had a foot throttle in addition to the hand lever. I thought it was odd, till I had used it for an hour. Then I thought it was really cool! It was a very stable machine,, and handled well. It is amazing how smooth they are too, with the ASV torsion bar suspended track system.

I have seen Gousers for skidsteers, but have not actually seen them in use. I would assume they make it pretty comparable to a track-loader for traction and stability.