Towing the tractor, weight issues

[Highbeam]

Folks,

I am in a jamb. I sold the bulldozer and am about to purchase a tractor/loader/box blade/brushhog/trailer. Yes it is a big deal for me.

The trailer will be a 10,000 lb GVWR car hauler type with electric brakes on both 5200 lb axles. 2' dovetail, all 6" channel frame and tongue. Bumper pull with W/D hitch. The trailer weighs 2300 and is very adequate.

The truck that I need to keep is a full size chevy, half ton, pickup with a 350 V8, 3.73 gears, and auto tranny. I am an RVer so I have experience pulling trailers and this pickup does very well as equipped with trans temp gauge, overload springs, and the heavy duty factory tow package. The truck is "rated" to tow 7000 lbs with a GCWR of 12000. This same truck offered today with the same tranny, rear end, and a smaller engine has a 13000 GCWR. My truck weighs 5500 unloaded. Would love a one ton dually diesel but it ain't in the cards.

The tractor is a Kioti DK40 with loader. I calculated 5000 lbs for the tractor. The implements together weigh about 1300. I can haul the implements seperately but would like to haul at least a 750 lb brush hog attached.

So my total trailer weight will be right at about 7300 which is 300 over my tow rating but puts me at 800 lbs over the GCWR of my 98 pickup and right at the GCWR of the modern day version. Truck's axle weights, hitch weight, and LTC tires are within ratings.

I want to be a weekend warrior tower and run the tractor once per weekend over a 45 mile one way trip on pretty major, nonsteep, low altitude, roads at about 60 mph. I can leave the implements at the property in my shipping container.

Bottom line is that I am a bit, 7%, high on the GCWR. Any opinions on whether this is reasonable?

 

[Bird]

Joe, from what I've seen in my years of RVing; just a wild guess of course, but I'd bet well over 50% of the RVs you see on the road are over the rated GCVWR, and by more than 10%, too. Now I certainly will NOT recommend that anyone do that, but if it were me, I wouldn't worry about it as long as you have good brakes on both truck and trailer and experience with pulling trailers safely. Those ratings are the "recommended" weights, and the truck manufacturer doesn't know whether you're going to be in the mountains, flat land, winding roads, straight roads, hot weather, cold weather, ice, snow, rain, or drought. So they have to come up with a "rating" for all purposes. So in my opinion if you know you can control and stop it safely, and you know you aren't overheating the engine or transmission, you're good to go.

 

[texbaylea]

I don't know which transmission you have but have you modded it for trailer towing? I do that on all my GM vehicle to get rid of the soft shifts that are the cause of much slippage and wear and heating.

Vernon

 

[tjkadar]

I'll second what bird said. You're keeping an eye on temps, have experience hauling, and aren't doing anything crazy. Unlike the guy towing a backhoe with a Ranger, you will most likely be fine.

The Ranger lost his truck, trailer, and backhoe when he jack knifed the trailer down a slight decline coming off a bridge. The truck was totaled, the trailer upside down, and all you could see of the backhoe was its bucket sticking up out of a ditch. How in the world he thought he could tow that load with a Ranger is beyond me... actually, how he got that load moving is beyone me.

 

[GEB]

Yep see it all the time, trucks over loaded.
Dont be that guy!
Do the right thing, not only will everybody be safer
you'll also feel better knowing your doing it right!
I use a singel rear wheel F350 PSD manuel trans.
My RV 10000, tractor & trailer right at 10000
Surely you can cash that 1/2 ton in on a nice used 3/4
and keep the cost down.
It's way better to have to much truck rather than not enough,
I always have enough, but never to much!
By all means get yurself a bigger truck!
Gene

 

[ronjhall]

<font color="blue"> Bumper pull with W/D hitch </font>
Are you using the equalizer hitch and bars? Using them will improve handling greatly.

 

[Egon]

Your familiar with towing -- soo --- The question is; will I be involved in a situation where the excess weight may void my insurance ??

Think it's your call!

Egon

 

[Indydirtfarmer]

Do-able? Yes... Safe? Probably.... The truck can handle it? Most likely... The D.O.T. will understand your situation? Probably not.... If you're over weight ratings on the truck, the hitch, the trailer, the tires, or any combination of these things, the long arm of the law can and (from my experience) will extend their warm invitation to appear in front of 'Da Judge".

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just offering to lend you my umbrella....

 

[QueBota]

Keep an eye on your rear tires, make sure they are properly inflated.

If you have rear drums on the truck make sure they are properly adjusted, depending on tounge weight the front end may get light.

If you are going to pull the trailer a lot, switching over to a synthetic or synthetic blend for the rear diff might be a good idea.

Dave

 

[Highbeam]

The rear drums from chevy are in need of regular adjustment and they are done at every other oil change when I rotate tires.

The weight distributing hitch is the official name of an equalizer type system with spring bars to distribute the tongue weight over both truck axles. This is done to prevent lightening of the front end and a few other things. A few hundred pounds of the tongue weight gets put on each axle. This is very common in the RV world. The tongue weight of less than 850 is not much really, split in half that is 425 on each axle which should make for a nice smooth ride.

In a wreck, the lawyers can get you nomatter what. I won't live in fear. My registered weights will not be exceeded. I am not interested in turning this into a legal debate as I know they can go on forever. I will not knowingly drive an unsafe load, I do not feel that merely exceeding a manufacturers rating makes a load unsafe. Please understand why I am not interested in going down the legal road.

The 4 speed auto tranny in my truck has not been modified, I do not use overdrive to tow. The ATF has been flushed and filter replaced every 50,000 miles. I use mobile 1 synthetic lube in everything including the transmission and rear end. Rear end lube changed every 33000. The truck is in great shape.

As I said, not interested in buying a bigger truck. Let me ask you this.... If a one ton truck was 7% over the GCWR would you still tell the guy to get a bigger truck, maybe a dually? Many folks don't give a half ton truck enough credit, I say the class of truck doesn't matter as much as the ratings. FYI, the 3/4 ton version of my truck has 500 lbs less towing capacity than my half ton as written in my owner's manual.

I will use the 4 chain and ratchet binder method plus one for the loader bucket.

Sounds like the general consensus is that the truck is capable, the trailer is capable, if the driver is capable then give it a try.

 

[Charlie_in_TX]

I think you miss calculated the weight. Your truck weights 5500lbs dry, add fuel, you, tools, ect and it's easily over 6000lbs. Add 2300 for trailer, 5000 for tractor and 1300 for imps and you are over 14,600. Hook everything up and head to the local scales and I bet you are closer to 16k than 14k. Lets use 14,600. Your truck is rated for 12,000lbs, you are at least 2600lbs over. Not an insegnificant amount.

A 2300lbs trailer, 5000lbs tractor and 1300lbs imp totals 8600lbs. You need 15% tounge weight thats 1300lbs. I believe your GVWR is 6400lbs. You are at 7300lbs.

These are best bet, pie in the sky numbers. Just about everyone that hits the scales weights more than they calculate. If it is something you do every so often, maybe. Weekly, no way.

 

[Highbeam]

Whoops, I should have made it clear that the truck weight is actual when full of fuel, usual tools, and with the driver. I am a weigher. At quarries, transfer stations, and closed weigh stations. I know my weights per axle but not per tire. I am usually the guy showing people that they are overweight and will agree that most people are surprised.

For the calcs I assumed just the tractor and loader at 5000, the trailer at 2300. That high tractor weight allows for chains and binders, fuel, and a cupholder. There is also fat on the trailer for the big ol' WD hitch assembly. You are correct in that I left the implement weight off since I can deliver them seperately and store them in my container on site.

So 5500 truck, 2300 trailer, 5000 tractor. Sums to 12,800. I will run less than 850 lbs of tongue weight since the rule of thumb is 10-15% on a bumper pull I can easily fall within that range.

Good input. We just needed to align our assumptions. I would be 800 over my GCWR or 6.6%. I would be within my truck ratings.

Now the new model of my truck has a GCWR of 13000. The GCWR is a recommended number for performance and it would seem that GM has decided that the new trucks with their smaller engines but all the rest of the drivetrain remaining unchanged perform just fine at 13000.

 

[Ryno1]

The Kioti website shows the DK40 at 3836 pounds.

So empty you gained a few pounds leeway

 

[Indydirtfarmer]

What class hitch are you currently using? Does it have the rating for the tongue weight you plan on?

I'm still of the opinion that the truck/trailer can handle the load, but are you LEGAL?

Also consider tire weight carrying capacity on the truck as well as the trailer.

D.O.T. goes after the weak link with a vengence.

 

[Highbeam]

3846 for the tractor and the loader is supposed to be exactly 4758 but I want the R4s and I don't know about if that tractor weight includes the 50 or so pounds of fuel the tractor carries.

My class 3 receiver hitch is rated for 1000 lbs tongue and 10,000 lb trailer but the GM towing fuide calls out 850 max tongue weight probably as a frame strength limitation. It is buried in the fine print.

Legal shmegal. Am I being wreckless or negligent? I don't think so, that's part of the reason for this thread. The legal implications of exceeding ratings/recommendations is a big long debate. Nobody has come up with a firm answer.

The trailer's label calls out 8000 lbs of net carry capacity. 16" radials.

On edit: My truck tires a LT range C have way more capacity than the axles. I like a stiff, overrated, tire to prevent sliding around on them.

I am not posistive on the weak link. The weakest link rating wise is the GCWR. The licensed weights are all higher than the planned load though that doesn't make the combination any stronger.

 

[Indydirtfarmer]

In both Kentucky and Indiana, of which I'm reasonably familiar, you go by RATED GVW, or tagged if it is LESS that rated, but tagging a vehicle for more than rated doesn't allow more carrying capacity.

Look on the sidewals of your tires for maximum weight per tire capacity.

Like I've said, you're close enough to rated capacity that I'm fairly certain there's enough margin of error built in so you're safe from a practical standpoint.

This entire issue is why I use a 30' and 25' gooseneck to move my tractors. I can position them farther to the rear, and carry more weight on the trailer as needed to balance the load in a manner that keeps me legal.

 

[Devildog]

HighBeam,
I just went through the same thing. I had a b7500 and towed it with my f250 on a single axle trailer all over the place, No problems. Now that I traded up to the 2630 I didnt realize just how heavy that sucker was with tires full of ballast, Loader and Backhoe. My 1800lb tractor went close to 5000lbs. So I sold the trailer and upgraded to a 7000lb tandem axle and all is good.

I also pull a 33' camper that comes in at around 8500 to 9000lbs loaded so I know when I need to upgrade.

When I first started towing these larger trailers I figured hey these things are no problem, I drive a tractor trailer /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Man did I get the shock of my life. I have since learned. Also I couldnt agree more with what Bird said about overloaded. I see it all the time.

 

[QueBota]

Take the truck and trailer/tractor/implements out in a safe known area and test drive it when there are not a lot of cars around and she how she feels. Try to make a few "emergency" stops or lane changes and see what it feels like. Make sure you use adequate binding for the load on the trailer, overkill here is a good thing and doesn't cost much.

Truck and trailer should be capable under normal circumstances; however, if something odd should happen the trailer could become a handful.

Good Luck,
Dave

 

[Soundguy]

Too bad you couldn't get it as a gooseneck attachment.

soundguy

 

[Highbeam]

Folks,

Thanks for the great input. I have about 90% decided to downsize to a 3825# tractor, the CK30HST, due in part to the near inability to tow the tractor and the inability to tow the tractor plus implements. I want to be able to easily and legally transport this machine to my property and other people's places for side jobs.

The other benefit is about 3500$ in savings on the tractor, a hydrostatic tranny, and a more attractive tractor for resale. It was a tough call since the larger tractor had much more lift capacity front and rear. I can roll the savings into a nice grapple and toothbar.

I will go sit on them again to be sure I am not buying a weanie tractor. The trailer won't change, love that PJ.

Thanks again folks