too old to do it by hand

MarkV · Feb 1, 2006

Well this has been an interesting and respectful conversation. I would guess that the one thing Miles2go is learning is that it isn’t easy to pick the right tractor for your needs. Being that I keep a tractor of both sizes being discussed I thought I would throw my two cents in on some of the points that strike me as important.

I have a Kubota B21 and a L39 TLB. These are both tractors that Kubota promotes as their commercial models and have a good bit of beef to hold up in commercial settings. The reason for having both is power, weight and maneuverability. It still amazes me how much work one can do with a 20 hp diesel tractor. For miles2go and others going through the tractor buying decision you can not compare the 20 hp diesels to the 20 hp gas riding mower you may be more familiar with. The small diesel tractors will most likely run out of traction before they run out of power. Where the smaller tractors come up short is PTO hp if your needs include running larger mowers, tillers or ground engaging implements like plows or disks. Then it is tough to beat the horse power and weight of a larger tractor.

Tractor weight is a “good thing, bad thing” many times. The L39 with loaded tires (filling the tires with liquid to add weight) pushes the scales at over 7500 lbs. That is too heavy to use on my finish lawn and pushes the limit for trailering without special licenses and towing equipment. The weight does add greatly to the tractors ability to get the power to the ground and stability on hill sides. Both very important depending on the setting and tasks it will be used for. Weight is also a function of the tractors ability to be a platform that tools are attached to. After all a tractor isn’t anything but a mobile power source on which tools are attached to do desired types of work. Adding larger pumps and cylinders to a small tractor would make for wonderful loader specs but the platform the loader was attached to would not have the weight to make it useable.

Miles2go has a fair amount of acreage but it sounds like not all of it is accessible due to the hills. I would guess that when talking larger or smaller tractors their ability to maneuver would be self explanatory. My small tractor will go places my large one has to move things to get to.

I just had to add my comments to this subject. A grapple is a wonderful piece of equipment when you have a lot of clearing and object moving to do. It truly minimizes the manual labor involved and that is one of miles2go’s objectives. That said I would not consider putting one on my B21. In my opinion even light weight grapples are too heavy for small tractors. With loader lift capacities of less than 1000lbs the added weight of a grapple will many times use half or better of the loaders capacity. That may be fine for just carrying brush but you will have lost your limited capacity to remove the trees being discussed with the loader. And yes I know there are people who have added grapples to their BX tractors and are very happy with them. For me a smaller tractor is not enough of a platform for this tool. If a grapple was a must have for me then I would be looking at the larger tractor. We are saying it different ways but I believe that is part of Ct Tree Guy’s recommendations.

Miles2go, I would be focusing much of my attention to tractors stability on hills in your situation. I believe that a smaller tractor would do much of what you want power wise and particularly if you had a small backhoe to go after the things a smaller loader and power plant came up short on. I also find that on any side hill I have taken my tractors on the larger one feels more stable. So I would be looking for tractors that offered the widest foot print in size range I decided on. I would also recommend that regardless of size have the rear tires filled with fluid to lower the center of gravity. It makes a great deal of difference in stability and traction regardless of the size of the tractor.

I don’t normally write this much, guess the caffeine kicked in this morning. Regardless of what you end up with you are going to wonder how you did without so long. Good luck on the search.

MarkV

miles2go · Feb 1, 2006

Mark,

Thanks! Very nice summary of the issues and the pros and cons of different solutions.

And everyone ... this thread has been a real education. I also appreciate that the participants have taken the time and paid attention to my actual situation and conditions. That is rare in many internet forums.

IslandTractor · Feb 2, 2006

Grubbing with a tractor is certainly possible but using a backhoe is going to put less stress on the machine. Few tractor FELs, even big ones, are really built with grubbing in mind. The possibility of torquing the FEL arms would be a concern. Why do you suppose bulldozers have short stubby arms?

I'd still vote for the smaller TLB. You can use some of the savings over a bigger machine on hiring a bulldozer to make quick work of the smaller trees and you will not stress your new tractor.

There are also lots of future uses for a backhoe on a property as you have described so I'd think carefully about a purchase that doesn't get you a BH and keep within your original budget. The B21 rental you are considering would give you a pretty good idea of what the capabilities of the CK20 TLB is as these machines are pretty evenly matched in specs (there are differences but not things that would be important for your testing of the small TLB concept). On the other hand, as I noted in a different threat, the B21 should not be considered a good way to evaluate the smaller BX24.

That said, the bigger tractors you are considering are very nice machines if you decide to forgo the TLB idea.

IslandTractor · Feb 2, 2006

CT said:

I'm just thinking about stability on hills with the backhoe, and having to get set up into "hoe position" to deal with each tree, as opposed to just attacking them with a grapple? 

Well, I agree. I think you are correct that the set up time for the backhoe (few minutes) is greater than what would be required for the grapple (none) when attacking small trees. I guess my concern would be just how big a tractor do you need to efficiently remove these trees without severely stressing the FEL/grapple. I think of the grapple as ideally suited to lift and move big snarly ungainly piles of brush without causing the tractor FEL to even break a sweat. However the torque forces associated with ramming a grapple into an unseen root system and trying to dislodge it are another matter. Isn't that why bulldozers have very little lift and have such short thick blade "FEL" arms? I don't doubt a large enough tractor could do this type of work without risking injury but while something midsized like a L3830 has undoubtedly got the horsepower, it seems to me it's FEL design is optomized for an entirely different purpose (lifting) and that it would at least potentially be damaged by the types of forces associated with aggessive root grubbing.

The stability issue is a good question. The major weight of the BH is carried pretty low but is certainly higher than the axles. It actually stablizes the tractor for FEL work generally so I would guess the only concern would be moving laterally on a slope but even there, I don't know it would be different than a tractor with just FEL.

miles2go · Feb 2, 2006

Island,

I can add an 8' BH to the Mahindra 3015HST or 2615HST for $5600. Would stretch, but not break the budget. And I can do it at a later date if the FEL is clearly not up to all the tasks I have in mind.

I believe you were the one who suggested that Mahindra 15s were similar to the CK20-CK30s -- and that was a major reason I checked them out, because the Kioti dealer is much farther away.

The Mahindra 2615 and 3015 are robust looking CUTs which differ only in engine and FEL size. The 2015 is smaller, but still fairly beefy for a 20hp.

I haven't seen the CK20 or 30, but I suspect that the Mahindra 3015HST, with optional (in my future?) BH might be a solution along the lines you have advocated, while providing still better ground clearance than the CK20 and more hp. What do you think?

CT_Tree_Guy · Feb 2, 2006

I guess my concern would be just how big a tractor do you need to efficiently remove these trees without severely stressing the FEL/grapple. I think of the grapple as ideally suited to lift and move big snarly ungainly piles of brush without causing the tractor FEL to even break a sweat. However the torque forces associated with ramming a grapple into an unseen root system and trying to dislodge it are another matter. 

Ed -

You beat me to the punch. I couldn't have said it any better, especially after today. This morning, I had a serious wake-up call regarding grapples and grubbing. I used my 5030/853/Bradco to rip out some fairly large and tenacious juniper bushes, and was reminded anew of why I made the earlier comment that my loader/grapple was not [at all] well-suited to such a task. What a pain. I totally agree with you, it put WAY to much strain on my machine. Not at ALL recommended. I can sum up my thoughts during that ordeal in one word: "backhoe". To heck with the minute or two it takes to get set up. I really do think it's the right tool for the job at hand. Sure, a D8 would be even faster, but I've already gotten in enough trouble for advocating bigger and more expensive machines. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have lots of ideas about what machine the backhoe might be sitting on, but I'll keep them to myself.

John

IslandTractor · Feb 2, 2006

MarkV,

Couldn't agree with you more about the capabilities of the 20hp TLBs. And I think your point about the fallacy of comparing a 20hp riding mower to a 20hp diesel tractor hits the nail right on the head. I don't have any difficulty understanding why a person new to tractors and coming from experience with something powered by a 20hp gasoline engine would tend to be thinking about >30hp as the next step. It is surprising just how big a difference the 20hp diesel is compared to the gas engine for tractor type work.

I'm starting to feel like a missionary preaching about the virtues of 20hp tractors for first time tractor buyers but I think it's important that someone points out that there is an amazing amount of work tractors less than 30hp can do. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

IslandTractor · Feb 2, 2006

John,

Please stop agreeing with me. It is simply not as much fun as arguing. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ed

CT_Tree_Guy · Feb 2, 2006

Please stop agreeing with me. It is simply not as much fun as arguing. 

Ed, I agree with you on that 100% /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

(But hey, not to worry - I have a feeling we have a little more "fun" in store before this thread is over. I've been biting my tongue on a couple of things, but I can't see that lasting much longer). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Pax, John

IslandTractor · Feb 3, 2006

Miles,

I would not hesitate to go for the Mahindra. They have great reputations. I have not seen one myself but Mahindra's get good press on TBN and it is the only tractor company in the world that has won the coveted Demming award.

I would suggest however that you spring for the BH as part of the initial purchase. It makes sense given your intended use (better way to stump grub than with the FEL) and it is MUCH easier to justify when you are already writing a big check than it will be in the future. I think a lot of guys who could use a BH don't have one because they thought they would add it later as an attachment. A $6000 attachment is tough to get past the CFO once you've already forked over for the tractor.

miles2go · Feb 3, 2006

( (But hey, not to worry - I have a feeling we have a little more "fun" in store before this thread is over. I've been biting my tongue on a couple of things, but I can't see that lasting much longer). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
)

John, please don't hold back. An "engagement" and then a marriage is in the offing. It's speak now or for ever hold your peace time. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

ksmmoto · Feb 4, 2006

Another thought is using a stump bucket for the brush and small stumps. I bought one and it works real well on Autumn Olive. I don't know how the root structure is on the Manzanita, but it should work and is much faster than a backhoe.

The stump buckets run around $325-$375. Also very useful for tree transplanting/planting. And for getting rocks that are partly buried.

I'll add a link to a couple of manufacturers.

Mid-State Attachments: http://24.199.170.181:82

Unlimited Fabrication, LLC: http://www.rootgrapple.com

CT_Tree_Guy · Feb 4, 2006

John, please don't hold back. An "engagement" and then a marriage is in the offing. It's speak now or for ever hold your peace time. 

Forever hold my peace? Yikes, what a horrible thought that is! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Well, marriage is a serious undertaking. Even Paris Hilton had the good sense to realize that she'd better call off her engagement, knowing full well that she didn't have six months to devote to a marriage. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif [Dave Letterman, 2005]

OK, here it is - the good, the bad, and the ugly. I just re-read MarkV's post, and man was that good. It addressed very nicely what I consider to be one of the core issues here - how much loader capacity do you need to accomodate a grapple that's up to the task at hand. A decent grapple is going to weight 750-800 lbs., so to me, that lets out a lot of machines. This gets to the heart of the "a smaller tractor will do everything a larger tractor will do, it'll just take longer" philosophy - one that I feel is fatally flawed. The smaller tractor will never, ever pick up what the larger tractor will, assuming indivisible objects. (I don't mean a 3130 with a 723 loader vs. a 3830 with a 723 loader; I mean (for example) a B3030 with a 402 loader or a CK20 with an 120 loader versus a 3830 with a 723 loader. (Holy "dramatic foreshadowing" Batman).

Here's what I was going to post last time, before thinking better of it, and saying that I was going to keep it to myself:

 That said, I'm probably about to get in trouble again right now. As I was abusing my machine, I had a lot of time to think about those d*** manzanitas, and what machine I would recommend.

I have a machine and attachments in mind, but the setup I have in mind would run about $5K more than the $25K budget. It would have been: a good used L3830HST with 723 loader, Bradco brush grapple, backhoe subframe, a used Bradco or Woods backhoe and a box blade.

First, it would be HST, given the terrain. That leads me to Kubota, as it did when I was researching my own tractor purchase, because I am convinced that Kubota makes the most reliable HST transmission, and I find mine to also be incredibly smooth, and very easy to operate all day thanks to the "Feather Step" system.

Next, it would have a loader capable of handling a full-sized grapple like the Bradco, Anbo, Piranha or equivalent. These grapples weigh around 800 lbs., so that leads to the 723 or 853 loader. I'd get tarred and feathered and run out of here on a rail if I recommended a 4330 or up to get the 853 loader (plus even I think it's overkill), so that leaves the 3130, 3430 or 3830. I don't think the 3130 has quite enough power for its weight even without a backhoe, so that leaves the 3430 and 3830. The 3830 is significantly wider, has a little longer wheelbase, a little more ground clearance, and takes bigger tires than the 3430, so that's the machine I would recommend. 

OK, so why a Kubota? Because I think they have the most reliable hydro in the industry, period. Others might well disagree, but I don't think it can be disproven. At the risk of providing anecdotal evidence, which I loathe, here nonetheless is a thread that made me sit up and take notice: CK20 HST tranny issues. Dirty pool? I sure hope not. Threads on Kubota hydro failures are very rare, although there was a recent one concerning a BX23 hydro failure that I attribute to cold weather and the failure to use SUDT fluid. All in all, I firmly believe that Kubota hydros cannot be beat; that's why I have one.

In the interest of being "fair and balanced" (god I hate that phrase, reminds me too much of those weasels at Fox News), here's a thread about a CK20 with backhoe that shows trees no mercy: Felling a tree with a backhoe. Most impressive, and let me say once again that I agree wholeheartedly that 20 diesel HP can do a LOT.

However, I refer back to MarkV's excellent observations about stability of the "larger" tractors on slopes such as those you have to deal with, and reiterate the point about loader capacity.

OK, that's about it. I know it's a budget buster, but I guess the question might well be - what has to "give" - the budget, or the functionality of the machine? In my defense, I resubmit my "First Law of Tractor ($$) Dynamics".

OK, I'm slipping into my well-worn, but very functional flame-retardant jumpsuit. Let the fun begin!

Nice knowing y'all,

John

IslandTractor · Feb 5, 2006

OK, I can see that John is getting a bit desperate now. Unfortunate because he usually trys to be at least half way reasonable. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif This last post really depends on faulty logic and a bit of unintentional, I hope, tabloid journalism. Sling enough mud and some will stick eh?

Regarding grapples: yes, if you want the style of grapple you might put on a skid steer to pick up debris at a construction site you should have a FEL lift capacity of about 2000lbs so there is lifting capacity left over to work with. However, there are reasonable brush grapples that weigh much less, some in the range of 450lbs as I recall and there is also the much cheaper option of simply attaching a grapple add on to the FEL bucket. Those weigh about 150 lbs or less and would do a fine job carting brush and trash around a landowners property. Just for fun, consider the following: you add a 800lb grapple to the Kubota 723 loader and you have about 800-900lbs lift capacity left over for work. If I add a 150lb "Add a grapple" to my Kioti KL120, I have about the same (920+/-) lift capacity left for work. Who wins? Looks pretty close to me but my option cost at least $10,000 less. I don't mean to imply there are not reasons to have the bigger grapple but recall that this discussion is not about professional landscapers, it is about a landowner who wants to clean up some brush to make a fire break. So, I conclude that the data John presents on loaders and grapples is not wrong but he is just off base in this thread.

Point two: I hope it is unintentional but it seems John's strategy in raising the reliability issue is to sling some mud. Kubotas are very reliable machines. So are JDs, NHs, MFs, Mahindras, Kiotis, Case, etc etc. Modern diesel tractors from first and second line companies are so reliable that using reliability as a major criteria in selection is meaningless. John has zero data on reliability of Kubota HST but tries to impugn the Kioti by pointing to a single thread in which one CK20 had a transmission failure and one other similar historical case was referenced during the discussion (?related problem, not yet clear from the thread). Most every one visiting the Kioti forum has seen those posts over the past month and no further cases have been identified. In that thread, a number of fairly high volume dealers noted that they had never seen such a failure. So we have two CK20 HST failures reported on TBN over the past two years. Is that a high or low rate of failure? What are the comparable Kubota figures? How does this provide evidence in favor of the Kubota? John my friend, I'm sure you are a fine tree surgeon and I suggest you keep the day job. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif You'd make a lousy epidemiologist or product quality engineer if you try to draw inferences about event frequency (reliability) without knowing something about the denominator and if you rely on passive case reporting. I know John does not have an evil bone in his body so I am going to chalk this particular episode up to poor judgment. Long day? Maybe one of those branches bopped you on the helmet? (that was mean, sorry buddy /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif, hope that never happens) John has given us no data either in favor of Kubota or against Kioti, he has just made an unsubstantiated assertion that belies poor logic, poor research and undermines his own case by showing it is really just his isolated personal opinion. As the business quality expert Deming said, "In God we trust, all others must use data".

The point about bigger tractors being more stable: John has reasserted this but hasn't given us any theory or testing data to back that up. We all understand that bigger tractors are wider but that is not the critical issue. I presume the determining factor is related to some dynamic between vehicle width AND center of gravity. The BX series from Kubota certainly has the reputation of being very stable and I presume that is due more to low center of gravity than it's not so wide stance. As the center of gravity is certainly lower on smaller tractors, I guess I could simply assert that the CK20 is more stable than the 3830. I don't really know which is more stable but I don't think John does either. I betcha John on his 5030 and I on my CK20 would get pucker factor equally on the same slope. The stability issue is a very important one considering the original poster's land so I don't mean to make light of it, I just would like a logical explanation rather than opinion on why one tractor is more stable than the other. Finally, If it is really hilly then neither tractor is best and the PowerTrac option takes first place in my book.

So, John my friend: I agree the 3830 is a fine tractor but not necessarily the perfect one for every job. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif It's overkill for this one, especially with that monster grapple you love. Your base used tractor, BH and grapple cost about $30000 and he still needs a mower, BB etc. And no warranty. If you recall, he can get a new 20hp TLB with all necessary implements and walk out of the dealer with change from his $25,000 budget left over. (Well maybe not much left over if he goes to the JD dealer /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I'll quit teasing John and summarize that my 2 main points in this thread have been that 1) for the scale of work originally outlined and the budget given, a 20hp tractor TLB (any brand) is an appropriate and economical way to go and 2) don't underestimate the capability of a 20hp TLB. The last point is especially important for newbie tractor buyers as it is very easy to assume more power is needed if you haven't had some seat time in a modern 20hp TLB.

OK John, what other draft posts should you have left in the trash can??? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

miles2go · Feb 5, 2006

Ed and John,

You guys crack me up! (And I mean that as a compliment.)

I've never participated in a net forum with such high-quality (and good-natured) discourse. You and the rest of the participants in this discussion are great -- and never boring!

I'd like the power of John's monster grapple machine, but I don't think I'd care for its weight and bulk and cost. I'm sure that it makes John's professional tree work much more productive.

I'm preferring the 30hp Mahindra over a 20hp because the extra hp and loader capacity will help with grading, material transport, and grubbing. The 20hp Mahindra seems like a large SCUT, while the 26 and 30 hp Mahindras are an identical larger form factor -- so I'm preferring the more hp and stronger loader of the 3015.

The Kioti dealer is ruled out because it's too far away. The Mahindra dealer is family-run for the past 25 years and all three generations are tractor mechanics in the shop. The owner lives a mile from me.

Whatever I buy will be a compromise. It needs to be an improvement over doing things by hand with a wheelbarrow, shovel, pickaxe, and hand-loppers. It can't be so big that I won't use it for chores in the 2 acres around my house. Nor can it be so big that my wife won't drive it on our level areas and roads.

Do I need (or want) a backhoe? Don't really know. But if I do, we can add it later. (The CFO is pretty reasonable about these things.) I'm pretty sure that I don't want it hanging off the back of my tractor for most activities I'll be doing.

I seriously considered PowerTrac, but it has some major strikes against it for my situation. No dealer support. The warranty only covers parts; you have to supply the labor. If you want a diesel and brakes that work well if there is failure in the hydraulic drive system, you have to buy a model that is much more expensive than the 425 that most people have. The accessories for the more expensive models are also much more costly than for the 425. Shipping to the west coast is thousands of dollars. The diesel engine is a brand that is not well-known by local shops. And again -- no local dealer support. Total costs of acquisition and ownership would push me into the range of John's 'monster' tree machine.

I'm interested in the Precision Add-a-Grapple that Ed mentions. It weighs 150 lbs for the single. I agree with Ed that I'm looking for something that will make moving 250 lbs. of grubbed manzanita to a burn pile easier. I'm not looking to move tree stumps and logs with it. Anyone seen the Add-a-Grapple in action yet? I've asked the Mahindra dealer to look into it.

Anyway, guys, please keep the ideas coming. Not married yet. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

IslandTractor · Feb 5, 2006

I like your choice of the Mahindra based on your description. I haven't had a chance to see one except in photos yet but they certainly have a good reputation. 26 or 30 hp would be certainly adequate.

There are folks who have put these types of grapple add ons to their FELs. PineRidge is one. There is in fact a guy on the Mahindra forum who has just done a custom job that would be about the same as the Add A Grapple in functionality. Grapple add on to Mahindra

So long as you won't have difficulty adding a backhoe later I wouldn't be concerned when you do it. Just don't bust up your FEL trying to do things a backhoe should. You are adding a toothbar I hope...check out the numerous threads on that issue. For the type of work you are planning a toothbar would be close to mandatory, especially without the BH.

I agree with your points on the PT. Great machines but there are some definite drawbacks that need to be considered. Shipping to the west coast is crazy expensive these days too.

Good luck with your Mahindra. Sounds like you've done your homework so now it's time to plunk down your money and grab some seat time.

miles2go · Feb 5, 2006

Ed,

Toothbar, definitely. Probably box scraper, too.

What about a rear-remote?

IslandTractor · Feb 5, 2006

With your road maintenance chores you'll need the box blade. It might also be useful to "soften up" the roots of the trash trees you need to get out too. That might help you avoid the backhoe purchase.

I don't know why you'd need a rear remote. If you add a backhoe there is usually a power beyond type arrangement which is cheaper and adequate for a backhoe. You'll have to ask someone who uses a rear remote what they find it necessary for. I imagine there are any number of serious farming implements that use it but I don't know about the type of utility work you have planned. I do without.

You will however need a diverter valve/selector switch if you install a grapple or grapple add on. Again, there are a number of posts about this and the companies that sell grapple add ons also sell kits for this purpose so you can make that decision later when you decide on the grapple business. ATI and Precision Manufacturering both make grapple add on kits and sell a valve kit.

By the way, I just checked out the 2615 and 3015 on the Mahindra website. Nice tractors. I'd probably be happy with the 2615 but at your higher altitude I can see why you are leaning towards the 3015. I like red!!

LBrown59 · Feb 6, 2006

( here's a thread about a CK20 with backhoe that shows trees no mercy: Felling a tree with a backhoe. Most impressive,
John)
========
 This link don't work for me.
I'd like to read it .Can you help me out?
THANKS

CT_Tree_Guy · Feb 6, 2006

Ed, I like a good joke as much as the next guy, but from my point of view, we're pretty much trying to help m2g figure out what machine might best serve his purposes, not try to compete with Dean Martin. He does "roasts" best; maybe we could leave them to him.

There's a fine line between good-natured ribbing and communication that might be somewhat less "benign". I really do my best to avoid labelling and "negative adjectives", and although ostensibly offered up under the cover of humor, I really didn't feel that some of your comments were warranted. To put it another way, I did not appreciate them.

"Desperate", "tabloid journalism", "mud-slinging", "off-base", "poor judgment", "poor research", "isolated personal opinion"? Ed, maybe there are a few things that could have stayed in your trash can?

Maybe I'll respond to some of your "points" at a later date, but for now, I'd just like to say that I love empirical data, and abhor purely "anecdotal" evidence. My opinion that Kubota hydro transmissions are quite likely more reliable than any other manufacturers' is not based on two threads, but rather on fairly extensive research into the issue, including hundreds, if not thousands of posts, and talking to dealers, mechanics and owners. I'll be happy to supply you with the empirical evidence that I'm confident could be assembled on the subject, but I have a feeling it wouldn't do much good. Kubota has been making hydros a lot longer than Mahindra or Kioti, and experience usually counts for something.

Stability? Great, pick up 900 pounds with your CK20 and then try to traverse a hill with it. Give me a break. Wishful thinking isn't going to get you down that hill, physics is. M2G has cited stability as one of his main concerns, and the larger tractor wins on that score hands down. Again, we're talking about how the tractor handles slopes while carrying a load, not empty.

And I do like that bucket grapple, and the Mahindra 4110 it's sitting on. Sounds like just the right class of machine for m2g, if only Mahindra had more experience with hydros. Interesting that they're discontinuing hydros on the 10 series? I just talked to a Mahindra dealer who told me the reasons: hydros didn't sell well because they're inefficient (10% power loss at the drive wheels?), slower than a gear tractor for loader work (? - if so, not by much - ?), and just not very well suited to a wide variety of tasks. Uh-huh. When I asked how long Mahindra has been making hydros, he informed me that neither Mahindra nor Kubota makes their own hydros; rather, they are made by Eaton. I asked him if there was any more misinformation he'd like to pass along, and wished him a good day.

I'm going to stand by my opinion that Kubota hydros are more reliable that either Kioti or Mahindra. If someone can offer empirical evidence to the contrary, fine. In the meantime, I just keep thinking about the many CK20HST owners who are wondering if their hydros will make it to 500 hours, much less 1000, 2000, 3000 and more ... like Kubota hydros routinely do.

You can't disprove the truth, and you can't prove something that's not true. Just my opinion, but I think I might have made a fine epidemiologist, forensic scientist, or any other kind of scientist. One of the downsides of being in the tree business is the all-too-common perception that one is somehow not as intelligent as those in other professions, be it doctor, lawyer, scientist or Indian chief. Although I have removed trees for the last 15 years, I also have a college degree, lots or real-world experience with machines of many kinds, and a respectable IQ. I have studied logic and physics at the college level, and will put my understanding of either one right up against yours any time.

I have a very high regard for "the truth", and for the methods required to ascertain it. Bring on your "proof" that Kioti or Mahindra hydros are more reliable than Kubota hydros, I'd like to see it. Or that a CK20 will be just as stable as an L3830 on a slope, with 900 lbs. being carried on the loader.

Poor logic, poor research, mud-slinging, tabloid journalism?

Come to think of it, "roast" or no - I wouldn't mind some sort of (real) apology. And if I sound pissed off, that's because I am.

John