too old to do it by hand

[CT_Tree_Guy]

Been doing some thinking on this.

Do you have to get the roots out, or can the manzanita be sheared or cut without it growing back?

If it doesn't grow back after being cut, what about a QA tree shear and a QA grapple, mounted on a machine that can handle them? I'm thinking of a 40-ish HP (4WD of course) CUT, preferably hydro. (Hmm, sounds a lot like a Kubota L3830HST). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The shear should ideally have arms to grab the tree or bush being cut so it doesn't fall onto your tractor, or onto you. Spend x number of hours, days or weeks shearing, then put on the grapple and make a bunch of burn piles.

There are many posts and threads on TBN about tree shears. Sounds like it just might be the way to go. If manzanita does have a tendency to grow back, maybe discourage said regrowth with Roundup or equivalent.

Just sounds as if you can get away with less machine if you don't have to dig the roots out. That is almost always easier said than done, except with machines that start to get quite large.

John

 

[miles2go]

Manzanita, once the leafy top is cut, dies and does no regrow from the stump or roots. (It does readily sprout up again from the seeds in the soil, but that is another matter.)

Thin manzanita trunks which have been sheared (and I've done many with hand loppers) can become weapons worthy of the Viet-Cong, if you happen to step on them or drive over them. Shearing them low enough to avoid this difficulty might be hard to do with a tractor mounted shear: too high and they are dangerous; too low and you are eating rocks with that spendy hydraulic shear. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

On the plus side ... with a new pair of compound loppers I could probably cut the majority of plants on my property. So shears with tractor hydraulics behind them should be able to handle just about any or all of them.

 

[texbaylea]

It sounds like the Hy-Reach tree shear would work on your problem. You can get to ground level or just below with out problem with it. One caveat, because ot the leverage of that heavy shear head 6' out from the front of the loader the minimum tractor is the Kubota L3130 with the LA723 loader. Even with that rig I get in situations where the shear is in full dump position. Need to wipe it along the ground while backing up to give it a boast in roll back. After it moves a few degrees up there is no problem. You can get a close mounted unit but visibility will be a problem.

Vernon

 

[Ryno1]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I've removed a lot of manzanita by hand by cutting off the leafy top, cutting the surface roots with a grubbing mattock, and then wrestling with a 2-3 foot tall trunk to pull i t loose. (The manzanita is only 2-3 inches in diameter, but contains 20-30 years of dense growth rings. Even professional tree services don't like to run this through their chippers.)

I'm guessing that any kind of mechanical grubbing tool attached to the front or rear hydraulics could easily dislodge a whole plant without having to cut off the top. )</font>

If manzanita can be pulled by hand then I would think a toothbar would make short work of them. Or something like the grubbing tool one of the guys made for his 3ph.

 

[IslandTractor]

Miles 2 go,

As I am on an island, even if there was a dealer on the mainland ferry docking site it would still be a hassle to transport the tractor to a dealer. There are at least three dealers within 90 miles of where I would land the tractor so that does not seem to be a huge issue. I have not had to even call my dealer about service issues yet but know that he is very responsive generally so I'm not concerned. As part of the internet age, there is also the possibility of getting parts etc from TBN savvy dealers.

To expand on this point, it is obvious that Kubota and JD have much larger dealer networks. Additionally, those dealers tend to be much larger than the typical Kioti dealer. There are some large Kioti dealers but I think it is true generally that at this point in history the Kioti dealerships are often small. There are advantages and disadvantages associated with that which should be taken into account. I think it matters most to determine what your comfort level is with a particular dealer. Dealer quality may well not correlate directly with size. My dealer was happy to arrange to deliver my tractor to the ferry dock (wee hours of the morning) so he could go over operation with me and still allow me to get on a 6:30am ferry). I have faith that he'll figure out some way to help if I do need service even though I am isolated.

Now, on to ground clearance and stability:

Ground clearance on the CK20 without BH is about the same as the Kubota 7510 or 12inches roughly. The KB2365 hoe subframe does lower that by about 4-5 inches along the longitdinal rails (not everywhere). I have never hit anything with the subframe and I work in a hilly area with lots of stumps. If I did hit something, it would be only the subframe (fairly massive) that hit, not a plastic oil cooler cover or filter etc. The angle of departure seems perfectly adequate too. I have attached a photo of the tractor with BH on a trailer. You can see the subframe (grey) and the angle of the ramp. No problem on or off.

The tractor seems stable to me and is certainly not tippy. Wheel base (by this I mean outside of tire to outside of tire) with my R4s is just shy of the 54 inch FEL. I am careful on general principles regarding slopes but I haven't experienced "pucker factor" any more than I did with my Sears riding mower on the same slopes. I would assume that the BX series is more stable generally as it is lower but I think the BX is exceptional in this sense and the CK20 is a typical CUT stabilitywise.

 

[IslandTractor]

Jim,

I appreciate your points. As I indicated in a reply to Miles2go, I have not found the subframe to be an impediment at all even though I am working in a hilly, lumpy area with lots of stumps. As you note, the 4 point attachment system for a BH is certainly easier to attach, especially for a novice. Lining up the subframe and attaching it took 20 minutes the first time but only about 5 minutes since. I would say a 4pt is easier but not a deciding factor.

I agree with the statement that the BX series is a better choice for a suburban setting where smaller size and optimized mowing is important. Also, the BX has a sweet MMM while the CK20s is expensive and not a strong point.

As I have pondered some of the responses to my suggestion that Miles2go check out the CK20 TLB it seems that actually the better comparison is CK20TLB to Kubota 21TLB rather than the BX24. In terms of overall TLB capacities however, consider the comparison between the CK20 and the B21:

Engine: CK20 and B21 both have dependable 21 hp diesels
FEL lift capacity CK20 wins with 1074lbs; B21 926lbs
FEL lift height: same, 88"
FEL breakout capacity: close: CK20 1511 ; B21 1543
Hydraulic output B21 wins with dual pumps and 13gpm; CK20 has single pump with 7.6gpm.
PTO power: CK20 wins 15.5 vs 13.5hp (given same HP engine, I guess this is the penalty for the dual pumps)
Backhoe: B21 wins with 7.5 foot digging depth, CK20 6.5ft
BH force (bucket/dipstick): CK20 2875/1744; B21 3110/1748
Weight: B21 is about 3850 lbs. CK20 TLB is about 3550lbs.
HST: B21 has three ranges, CK20 only 2 (this is at top of my wish list for improvements to the CK20)

Cost: dealer negotiated but I am pretty sure the CK20 TLB package comes in thousands less. Anyone priced a B21 lately? I may be wrong but I think the B21s go for >$22K.
The CK20 TLB should go for about $17-18K which is a thousand or two more than the BX24. The Kubota B7510 can also be configured as a TLB for about the same price as the CK20 TLB but has significantly less FEL capacity and similar BH figures.

I know the B21 is purpose built, has a 4pt rops etc and has a great reputation as a small construction TLB. I was just surprised how close it was to the CK20 while I was looking at the BX to CK20 comparison. It also backs up the notion that the CK20TLB is a significantly "bigger" machine than the BX.

 

[Big_Cajun]

Hello Miles2go:

Just one comment...don't cheat yourself by getting a unit with too little horsepower/weight.

That's just my opinion...no grenades, please /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BC

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

BC -

You won't get any grenades hurled from my direction, I'm the one pushing for at least an L3830. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm carrying around my fair share of shrapnel for frequently advocating as much tractor as you possibly can, without going "too big". (Now that I think about it, it reminds me of how the bidding works on "The Price is Right" - get as close as you can, but don't go over). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

To me, the main thing that a smaller tractor won't do that a bigger one will do is LIFT, particularly when it comes to indivisible objects.

Maybe I should work for GE - their new motto is "Go Big". /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Uh-oh, I hear "incoming" - got room in that foxhole for one more? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John

 

[Big_Cajun]

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Sure thing CT...we can get a gumbo on the fire and share tractor stories. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It could turn into a party!

 

[Ryno1]

Gumbo..... is everyone invited, CT I'll race you to the gumbo!!

 

[Big_Cajun]

I see your point Isle Tractor:

I guess my preference on tractors with more power is more of a want vs. need issue...but still, I've made mistakes in the past by buying the smaller, less powerful product and kicking myself for not getting the more powerful unit.

Fact of the matter is that it's only opinion, and Miles2Go will be able to make a well-informed decision as to what tractor best suits his needs.

I hope he gets exactly what he wants and needs, as some of us can't do both. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Disclaimer: I'm not flaming anyone on this.

BC

 

[IslandTractor]

Cajun,

There's hardly a soul on TBN who doesn't want bigger and better. I don't know if it is simply a function of being male or if this is a particular characteristic of the tracter-itis that infects us all. My point is basically that we should be restraining ourselves and using a carefully thought through needs assessment before moving up. The professional farmers certainly do this and I doubt many of them have bigger tractors than they need or can economically justify. It is the part timers (myself included) who seem more prone to talking themselves into bigger more powerful tractors than they really need for the job.

It is so easy to be carried away by the bigger is better philosophy that sometimes I think we need a "tractors anonymous" group to keep ourselves in check. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[IslandTractor]

CT,

Me thinks you missed my point. I was not comparing the CK20 to the L3830, I ain't that dumb. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif My point was that the tasks outlined by Miles2go could be very effectively accomplished by a tractor, such as the CK20TLB, which is much smaller than the L3830. And, that because the total cost would allow him to purchase a backhoe, that this small TLB combo would actually be a more efficient stump grubbing machine than the bigger tractor with FEL alone.

The stability issue is an interesting one and I am not certain if there is a way to compare the static stability of these two tractors. Yes, your L3830 has a wider stance but it also has a higher center of gravity. Don't know how to calculate which would be more stable on a sideways slope. However, as you may have noted, I actually had previously recommended that Miles2go check out the PowerTracs which I think you would agree are going to be more stable than either the Kioti or Kubota.

I don't think we disagree about the comparative cabibilities of the CK20 and L3830, the disagreement is over which would better meet M2gos specific needs in the long run.

As he has been hanging out in the PowerTrac forum recently, I guess he might be choosing something altogether different anyway.

See ya.

Ed

 

[miles2go]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( And as far as stability and ground clearance is concerned; 3830 vs. CK20: wheelbase 57.9/72.4; width 44.1/66; ground clearance 12.2/14.6; weight 1962/3340.)</font>

Guys, I really appreciate the quality of discourse here. And I'm keeping my mind open to as many suggested solutions as I can.

I have a quick question about the quote: should it in fact read CK20 vs 3830, instead of the the other way around? I'm guessing the 3830 would have the bigger numbers in the comparison.

Now back to the game ...

I'm considering a more powerful tractor after what I've heard in several threads on this board. And I wonder if the more powerful, heavier tractor like the 3830 or a Mahindra couldn't handle the manzanita grubbing and removal with a suitable front grapple bucket.

And could the correct front bucket on a more powerful, heavier tractor handle the modest grading chores I have in mind -- eliminating the need and bother of the backhoe? I might have to test that by renting the B21 and seeing how it handles my dirt. And ask local dealers what they think, given their knowledge of local conditions.

Eliminate the backhoe and a lot more tractors might fit my "bill" -- in terms of price and stability on my hills.

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

Hi m2g -

Oops, you are quite correct that I should have said "CK20 vs. 3830" instead of the other way around - I just changed that. As for doing your grading with the front bucket; I am really just speaking mostly from "book learnin'" here, but I don't think you'd be very happy or productive trying to do that. I've never used one, but I think a box blade would be your "weapon of choice" for maintaining your driveway and doing other grading chores. A box blade would also make a pretty good counterweight for your FEL work.

I obviously don't know as well as you do exactly what tasks you had in mind for the backhoe, but can only suggest that you just try to envision what a HD bucket with a toothbar can do for you, versus a backhoe. From what I hear, toothbars really add a lot of functionality to a bucket when it comes to do some fairly serious digging; but again, it's obviously not going to do what a backhoe would do.

I sure do think you're right that having a backhoe on the tractor would make it a lot less stable on those slopes of yours, but you could always get one down the road and just put it on when you need it. I'd recommend a backhoe subframe for strength, and it's gotta be easier to hook a hoe up to a subframe than to a 3PH - but again, that's just book learnin' talking.

Lastly, when and if it comes time to figure out how you want to control a front grapple, or the top and tilt that would add an incredible amount of functionality to a box blade, you might want to take a gander at these two threads: Remotes and Top and Tilt? and To grapple or to not grapple... The first one contains some particularly lively discussion that makes this thread look like a "love-in". /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Electric/hydraulic solenoids are very, very slick, and not appreciably more $$ than conventional remotes - just one more thing to think about (and for me to catch "flak" about). Oh well, that's what foxholes are for. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Take care, John

 

[AutoUnionTypeC]

Right, I thought that might have been the direction you were heading...... I'm really not sure about the shearing capabilities of the front-end loader. I have no problem shearing the aforementioned Multiflora Rose and Sumac. I don’t bother with the root system even though they both will try and come back. I’m reclaiming the land and mow it regularly, so unless I stop mowing they have no chance. I think your Manzanita is a different bird though. I suspect Sumac may get as big but is a much softer wood. If you still plan on cutting by hand and transporting with the front end loader and grapple I think the 20-25 hp tractors are capable but a 30 -35hp tractor is more appropriate. A 40 hp tractor like the 3830 is well and truly overkill for simply transporting brush and grading……IMHO.
Put me square in the middle of John and Ed on that one, good thing I’m armed.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

If a dozen smokejumpers with Pulaski’s can make a respectable fire break I’m sure one man and a good tractor can as well. I wish you luck whatever you choose.

Regards, Jamie

 

[Big_Cajun]

That's almost as fun as thinking about tractors /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BC