OP
Spencer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,267
- Location
- Western Michigan
- Tractor
- NH TC33D w/R4 Tires, Rear Remote, Hydraulic Toplink, 2 Auxiliary Work Lights, 7308 Loader w/Kasco Uni-Hitch (Quick Tach)
Spencer's Pole Barn Project
- Thread starter Spencer
- Start date
- Views: 72066
OP
Spencer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,267
- Location
- Western Michigan
- Tractor
- NH TC33D w/R4 Tires, Rear Remote, Hydraulic Toplink, 2 Auxiliary Work Lights, 7308 Loader w/Kasco Uni-Hitch (Quick Tach)
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
This half of the roof is going to take me a while to build. One reason is that I am still pretty busy working on the road. The other reason is that I am not a framing carpenter. I really didn't have this valley thing figured out when I drew up the plans. I thought I would figure it out when I got to it. Well it's time to figure it out. I knew I had to have some plywood down on the main trusses to build the valleys on. I didn't want to put all the plywood on yet so I just put enough sheets on to cover the area of the valleys. I used pressure treated plywood here so I didn't have to worry about it sitting up there in the rain. Yes this plywood has already seen some rain and it will probably see some snow before I get around to covering it up.
To build the valleys I started with a 2x10 ridge board. Then I put a chalk line from the top of the valley down to bottom. Then I put down a 2x12 valley board on each side. I held the 2x12 back 3.5" from the chalk line and nailed it down to the main trusses. I'm using 2x6's for the rafters, these needed a compound miter on the bottom side to accomodate for the 4-12 pitch in each direction. Unfortunately my compound miter saw won't come close to cutting a 18 degree compound miter so these had to be done by hand. I only got one valley finished last night but at least now I have it figured out, or so I think. I would have gotten further yesterday but it rained for a few hours and that slowed me down a bit. This picture was taken in the dark but I tried to lighten it up a little.
Thats all I have for now. It's not much but it's a step in the right direction.
Spence
This half of the roof is going to take me a while to build. One reason is that I am still pretty busy working on the road. The other reason is that I am not a framing carpenter. I really didn't have this valley thing figured out when I drew up the plans. I thought I would figure it out when I got to it. Well it's time to figure it out. I knew I had to have some plywood down on the main trusses to build the valleys on. I didn't want to put all the plywood on yet so I just put enough sheets on to cover the area of the valleys. I used pressure treated plywood here so I didn't have to worry about it sitting up there in the rain. Yes this plywood has already seen some rain and it will probably see some snow before I get around to covering it up.
To build the valleys I started with a 2x10 ridge board. Then I put a chalk line from the top of the valley down to bottom. Then I put down a 2x12 valley board on each side. I held the 2x12 back 3.5" from the chalk line and nailed it down to the main trusses. I'm using 2x6's for the rafters, these needed a compound miter on the bottom side to accomodate for the 4-12 pitch in each direction. Unfortunately my compound miter saw won't come close to cutting a 18 degree compound miter so these had to be done by hand. I only got one valley finished last night but at least now I have it figured out, or so I think. I would have gotten further yesterday but it rained for a few hours and that slowed me down a bit. This picture was taken in the dark but I tried to lighten it up a little.
Thats all I have for now. It's not much but it's a step in the right direction.
Spence
Attachments
Slamfire
Veteran Member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
I don't want to rain on your parade but what the second picture shows doesn't look like any valley I've ever seen. I'm assuming you have a tee into the main building at the spot where you are building your valley. The tee's ridge needs to run to the ridge from the main roof. Then a valley ridge runs from that point down to the corners of the two walls. The jack rafters then go from the normal rafter to the valley ridge on both sides. I'll try and get some pictures before you get any further.
I don't want to rain on your parade but what the second picture shows doesn't look like any valley I've ever seen. I'm assuming you have a tee into the main building at the spot where you are building your valley. The tee's ridge needs to run to the ridge from the main roof. Then a valley ridge runs from that point down to the corners of the two walls. The jack rafters then go from the normal rafter to the valley ridge on both sides. I'll try and get some pictures before you get any further.
OP
Spencer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,267
- Location
- Western Michigan
- Tractor
- NH TC33D w/R4 Tires, Rear Remote, Hydraulic Toplink, 2 Auxiliary Work Lights, 7308 Loader w/Kasco Uni-Hitch (Quick Tach)
mikim
Veteran Member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I am not a framing carpenter. )</font>
You've certainly done very well so far ... but that's not the way to frame up your valleys and you'll be sorry down the road to leave it like that. Hate to bring you down - but if you'll get a book on framing roofs - it'll show you how to cut jack rafters and install them. All the words of description in the world won't help without pictures - every book store has 'em and you'll end up referring to it constantly. I have one that's 40 years old and still use it. I hate tearing apart hard work - but my advice is to do exactly that, get the book, frame it right, and you'll be glad you did in the end. I have a roof on the house in town - a screen room between the house and garage - that the previous owner framed very similarly to the way you're doing it now ... and I've had nothing but trouble with it. (leaks etc.) He even used old used lumber of different dimensions. Some of the rafters are 2x6 - some are 2x4 and there are braces in there that are plywood! Unfortunately I can't get in there to replace any of it - there's no access. I only discovered it when I cut a small hole to run some wiring. Do it right the first time and you'll never be sorry. (except during the undo) /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I am not a framing carpenter. )</font>
You've certainly done very well so far ... but that's not the way to frame up your valleys and you'll be sorry down the road to leave it like that. Hate to bring you down - but if you'll get a book on framing roofs - it'll show you how to cut jack rafters and install them. All the words of description in the world won't help without pictures - every book store has 'em and you'll end up referring to it constantly. I have one that's 40 years old and still use it. I hate tearing apart hard work - but my advice is to do exactly that, get the book, frame it right, and you'll be glad you did in the end. I have a roof on the house in town - a screen room between the house and garage - that the previous owner framed very similarly to the way you're doing it now ... and I've had nothing but trouble with it. (leaks etc.) He even used old used lumber of different dimensions. Some of the rafters are 2x6 - some are 2x4 and there are braces in there that are plywood! Unfortunately I can't get in there to replace any of it - there's no access. I only discovered it when I cut a small hole to run some wiring. Do it right the first time and you'll never be sorry. (except during the undo) /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
5string
New member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Looks great! The two previous post have you covered with regard to framing the valley's - no more needs to be said about that. I too have a pole barn going-up. The holes should be drilled on Friday. I am building a dutch gambrel style with a full second floor.
Did you ever consider commercial girts to facilitate electrical and insulation?
Looks great! The two previous post have you covered with regard to framing the valley's - no more needs to be said about that. I too have a pole barn going-up. The holes should be drilled on Friday. I am building a dutch gambrel style with a full second floor.
Did you ever consider commercial girts to facilitate electrical and insulation?
OP
Spencer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,267
- Location
- Western Michigan
- Tractor
- NH TC33D w/R4 Tires, Rear Remote, Hydraulic Toplink, 2 Auxiliary Work Lights, 7308 Loader w/Kasco Uni-Hitch (Quick Tach)
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I'm assuming you have a tee into the main building at the spot where you are building your valley. The tee's ridge needs to run to the ridge from the main roof. Then a valley ridge runs from that point down to the corners of the two walls. )</font>
Slamfire, I want to make sure I understand what you are suggesting. I took a new picture of the valley from the side and modified it. Is this the roof layout you are proposing? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Spence
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I'm assuming you have a tee into the main building at the spot where you are building your valley. The tee's ridge needs to run to the ridge from the main roof. Then a valley ridge runs from that point down to the corners of the two walls. )</font>
Slamfire, I want to make sure I understand what you are suggesting. I took a new picture of the valley from the side and modified it. Is this the roof layout you are proposing? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Spence
Attachments
Henro
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2003
- Messages
- 5,007
- Location
- Few miles north of Pgh, PA
- Tractor
- Kubota B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini EX
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Spencer,
Personally, I don't see any problems with the way you are doing it. I think there is the traditional way and the creative way to accomplish something. Both can be good and reliable over the long term.
You are tying those rafters into the existing new roof pretty well it appears. Why would that be a problem, if you do a good job flashing the valleys before putting the roofing on?
I'm an amature too...but I have designed my own home and built it with my own hands so I do have a little experience along these lines and perhaps with the non traditional approach too.
I also have a bunch of books on building and read and reread them back in the beginning. That is great advice...
My question would be...why should what you have done so far produce a leaky roof? THe roof you are attaching to is new and solid. Your have things aliigned well from what the photos show. You will certainly flash things properly and use good roofing materials...
Take these comments with a grain of salt as I don't have the building experience that others here do...but I do have some and I can imagine a lot of other ways to do what you are doing...all pretty undesirable.
I would want to hear some very specific "you are doing this, and it is bad to do that because this will happen if you do..." advice before I started ripping things out and doing it differently.
For me saying "that's not good because we don't do it that way..." would not be good enough. I'm not saying anyone said that...just using it as an example of where I am coming from... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Don't be too quick to pick up that wrecking bar... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Spencer,
Personally, I don't see any problems with the way you are doing it. I think there is the traditional way and the creative way to accomplish something. Both can be good and reliable over the long term.
You are tying those rafters into the existing new roof pretty well it appears. Why would that be a problem, if you do a good job flashing the valleys before putting the roofing on?
I'm an amature too...but I have designed my own home and built it with my own hands so I do have a little experience along these lines and perhaps with the non traditional approach too.
I also have a bunch of books on building and read and reread them back in the beginning. That is great advice...
My question would be...why should what you have done so far produce a leaky roof? THe roof you are attaching to is new and solid. Your have things aliigned well from what the photos show. You will certainly flash things properly and use good roofing materials...
Take these comments with a grain of salt as I don't have the building experience that others here do...but I do have some and I can imagine a lot of other ways to do what you are doing...all pretty undesirable.
I would want to hear some very specific "you are doing this, and it is bad to do that because this will happen if you do..." advice before I started ripping things out and doing it differently.
For me saying "that's not good because we don't do it that way..." would not be good enough. I'm not saying anyone said that...just using it as an example of where I am coming from... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Don't be too quick to pick up that wrecking bar... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Robert_in_NY
Super Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2001
- Messages
- 8,586
- Location
- Silver Creek, NY
- Tractor
- Case-IH Farmall 45A, Kubota M8540 Narrow, New Holland TN 65, Bobcat 331, Ford 1920, 1952 John Deere M, Allis Chalmers B, Bombardier Traxter XT, Massey Harris 81RC and a John Deere 3300 combine, Cub Cadet GT1554
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
I agree with Henro, while there is room for improvements what you have done so far will work if you flash it right. Also don't leave your valley exposed. Run one side of the shingles up the other side then just cut the other side so any water runs down onto the other sides shingles. And if for some reason it gets under those shingles it still would have to get under the water barrier you will have underneath the shingles. I would tear it down but make sure you bring your plywood down till it hits the other plywood so there is no gap. Also, DON'T WALK IN THE VALLEY WHEN YOU ARE ROOFING IT. Nothing ruins a good valley like walking thru the centers of them. It breaks the water barrier and also damages the shingles because there is a gap under the center of the shingles in the valley from the curve. Have fun on the rest of your project and one of these days we need to get back to work on ours /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
I agree with Henro, while there is room for improvements what you have done so far will work if you flash it right. Also don't leave your valley exposed. Run one side of the shingles up the other side then just cut the other side so any water runs down onto the other sides shingles. And if for some reason it gets under those shingles it still would have to get under the water barrier you will have underneath the shingles. I would tear it down but make sure you bring your plywood down till it hits the other plywood so there is no gap. Also, DON'T WALK IN THE VALLEY WHEN YOU ARE ROOFING IT. Nothing ruins a good valley like walking thru the centers of them. It breaks the water barrier and also damages the shingles because there is a gap under the center of the shingles in the valley from the curve. Have fun on the rest of your project and one of these days we need to get back to work on ours /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
JTC
Bronze Member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
The last picture clarifies things. I too thought from the first picture that the ridge sloped down hill from the trusses. This would be odd and not a good technique. It's apparent from the last photo that this is an optical illusion and the ridge is horizontal.
I'm sure Spencer could not see anything wrong with the photo because he knew how it was constructed and this over-rode the visual clues that created the illusion (at least for me).
I agree there's nothing wrong with this construction and in fact looks like a good job.
Jim
The last picture clarifies things. I too thought from the first picture that the ridge sloped down hill from the trusses. This would be odd and not a good technique. It's apparent from the last photo that this is an optical illusion and the ridge is horizontal.
I'm sure Spencer could not see anything wrong with the photo because he knew how it was constructed and this over-rode the visual clues that created the illusion (at least for me).
I agree there's nothing wrong with this construction and in fact looks like a good job.
Jim
Slamfire
Veteran Member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Spencer, I'm sorry I didn't find a single photo on the web last night of a valley. It is possible that I misled you on the height of the ridge of your tee section. It doesn't have to go up to the ridge of the main roof. Butting it on an existing truss is perfectly alright. My complaint is the way your jack rafters are terminated. Starting at the point where the tee's ridge abuts on the truss valley boards needs to run to both corners of the tee where it contacts the main structure. Then the valley jacks run from The ridge of the tee to this valley board. Another set of jacks run from the valley board to the existing trusses. In your first drawing, you need to look into the valley at a diagonal angle. Perhaps what I'm saying will become apparent from that angle. I don't have a house drawing program, or I'd make you a print of what I'm trying to say. I'll be free to leave the house tomorrow, and will take a camera with me. Hopefully, I'll find a roof with a valley I can photograph.
Spencer, I'm sorry I didn't find a single photo on the web last night of a valley. It is possible that I misled you on the height of the ridge of your tee section. It doesn't have to go up to the ridge of the main roof. Butting it on an existing truss is perfectly alright. My complaint is the way your jack rafters are terminated. Starting at the point where the tee's ridge abuts on the truss valley boards needs to run to both corners of the tee where it contacts the main structure. Then the valley jacks run from The ridge of the tee to this valley board. Another set of jacks run from the valley board to the existing trusses. In your first drawing, you need to look into the valley at a diagonal angle. Perhaps what I'm saying will become apparent from that angle. I don't have a house drawing program, or I'd make you a print of what I'm trying to say. I'll be free to leave the house tomorrow, and will take a camera with me. Hopefully, I'll find a roof with a valley I can photograph.
Robert_in_NY
Super Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2001
- Messages
- 8,586
- Location
- Silver Creek, NY
- Tractor
- Case-IH Farmall 45A, Kubota M8540 Narrow, New Holland TN 65, Bobcat 331, Ford 1920, 1952 John Deere M, Allis Chalmers B, Bombardier Traxter XT, Massey Harris 81RC and a John Deere 3300 combine, Cub Cadet GT1554
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Hopefully you can find a picture because you lost me as well /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Hopefully you can find a picture because you lost me as well /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Inspector507
Super Member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Robert,
I'm lost too.......of course I'm an Electrical Inspector not a Structural Inspector.
What he had, looks like what I'm used to seeing.
Robert,
I'm lost too.......of course I'm an Electrical Inspector not a Structural Inspector.
What he had, looks like what I'm used to seeing.
Slamfire
Veteran Member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Sorry, picture taking postponed due to rain. Perhaps tomorrow, weather prediction looks favorable.
Sorry, picture taking postponed due to rain. Perhaps tomorrow, weather prediction looks favorable.
WVBill
Veteran Member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
I found this drawing on the web at How Your House Works
Hope it helps
I think this is the way you're doing it, right Spencer?
I found this drawing on the web at How Your House Works
Hope it helps
I think this is the way you're doing it, right Spencer?
MarkV
Super Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2000
- Messages
- 5,698
- Location
- Cedartown, Ga and N. Ga mountains
- Tractor
- 1998 Kubota B21, 2005 Kubota L39
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Good graphic Bill. That is not quite what Spencer is doing but close. What you show has a valley rafter, this is a structural support and leaves the space into the gable extension open without the main rafters, off of the ridge board, blocking the opening into the gable extension. Very common for those of us who convert attics into living space. The valley rafter works like a header over a wall opening, it transfers the load of the roof to the top of the wall. Spencer is setting the jack rafters of his gable extension, the short rafters before his trusses come into play, onto the sheathing that covers his main barn trusses. This is a totally expectable way to build if you don't need the space in the area under that gable extension roof.
Looking at photos can be confusing because of the 2 dimensional plane rather than the 3 dimensions your eye would see in person. I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that Spencer elected to raise the ceiling of the extension higher than that of the main barn. This allowed him to place the beam, on top of the poles of his extension, on top of the beam of the main barn. As a result the valley will terminate short of the rafter tails of the main barn. There is nothing structurally wrong with this. You can look at most any dormer and the valley does not go all the way to the rafter tails of the main roof. The only thing that will be effected is the fascia of the main building will step up when it reaches the gable extension.
Now if everyone is not totally confused yet, I'll try again later. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
MarkV
Good graphic Bill. That is not quite what Spencer is doing but close. What you show has a valley rafter, this is a structural support and leaves the space into the gable extension open without the main rafters, off of the ridge board, blocking the opening into the gable extension. Very common for those of us who convert attics into living space. The valley rafter works like a header over a wall opening, it transfers the load of the roof to the top of the wall. Spencer is setting the jack rafters of his gable extension, the short rafters before his trusses come into play, onto the sheathing that covers his main barn trusses. This is a totally expectable way to build if you don't need the space in the area under that gable extension roof.
Looking at photos can be confusing because of the 2 dimensional plane rather than the 3 dimensions your eye would see in person. I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that Spencer elected to raise the ceiling of the extension higher than that of the main barn. This allowed him to place the beam, on top of the poles of his extension, on top of the beam of the main barn. As a result the valley will terminate short of the rafter tails of the main barn. There is nothing structurally wrong with this. You can look at most any dormer and the valley does not go all the way to the rafter tails of the main roof. The only thing that will be effected is the fascia of the main building will step up when it reaches the gable extension.
Now if everyone is not totally confused yet, I'll try again later. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
MarkV
Slamfire
Veteran Member
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Yep, that's it!
Yep, that's it!
OP
Spencer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,267
- Location
- Western Michigan
- Tractor
- NH TC33D w/R4 Tires, Rear Remote, Hydraulic Toplink, 2 Auxiliary Work Lights, 7308 Loader w/Kasco Uni-Hitch (Quick Tach)
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
I almost got all the plywood up on the 16' by 16' shop addition, which has the two controversial valleys. I debated whether to even attempt putting any sheathing on because I knew we had a whole week of rain coming up. I really want to complete the whole roof before winter sets in so I decided to do it. I only have three more pieces of plywood to cut and put up on one of the valleys. I try to stop making noise by 9:30 p.m. to be a good neighbor so I couldn't do anymore cutting. Rain was forecasted to start at midnight so I had my work cut out for me anyway to get this wood covered up. I have so much work coming up that it is probably going to be at least November before I can get enough time to finish all the sheathing and put the shingles on. Because this plywood is going to sit so long I decided to spray some cheap Thompson's water seal on it before I covered it up with tarps. That way in case the something happens to the tarps when I'm on the road working the wood has some protection from the rain. This shop addition, and the lean-to I made on the other side of the barn for the tractor, really made this barn a lot harder to build. If this barn was a normal rectangular structure I would have been had the roof and walls on by now. I didn't want to take out any more trees than I had to so I designed it like this to get the extra space I wanted. Here is the plan showing the front view of the barn. It has a lean-to on the left side for the tractor. There are three main bays in the middle section for vehicles and storage. On the right side is the 16' by 16' shop addition that I am working on now. I know it will be worth it in the end but it has been a lot harder to build than a rectangular structure would have been. I will have an extra 288 sq. feet in the lean-to and an extra 256 sq. feet in the shop addition. Besides the extra square footage I think the structure will also look a lot nicer than a normal pole barn (once I get all these tarps off of it).
By the way the total square footage will be 2336, it would have been 1792 without the lean-to and the shop addition.
Spence
I almost got all the plywood up on the 16' by 16' shop addition, which has the two controversial valleys. I debated whether to even attempt putting any sheathing on because I knew we had a whole week of rain coming up. I really want to complete the whole roof before winter sets in so I decided to do it. I only have three more pieces of plywood to cut and put up on one of the valleys. I try to stop making noise by 9:30 p.m. to be a good neighbor so I couldn't do anymore cutting. Rain was forecasted to start at midnight so I had my work cut out for me anyway to get this wood covered up. I have so much work coming up that it is probably going to be at least November before I can get enough time to finish all the sheathing and put the shingles on. Because this plywood is going to sit so long I decided to spray some cheap Thompson's water seal on it before I covered it up with tarps. That way in case the something happens to the tarps when I'm on the road working the wood has some protection from the rain. This shop addition, and the lean-to I made on the other side of the barn for the tractor, really made this barn a lot harder to build. If this barn was a normal rectangular structure I would have been had the roof and walls on by now. I didn't want to take out any more trees than I had to so I designed it like this to get the extra space I wanted. Here is the plan showing the front view of the barn. It has a lean-to on the left side for the tractor. There are three main bays in the middle section for vehicles and storage. On the right side is the 16' by 16' shop addition that I am working on now. I know it will be worth it in the end but it has been a lot harder to build than a rectangular structure would have been. I will have an extra 288 sq. feet in the lean-to and an extra 256 sq. feet in the shop addition. Besides the extra square footage I think the structure will also look a lot nicer than a normal pole barn (once I get all these tarps off of it).
By the way the total square footage will be 2336, it would have been 1792 without the lean-to and the shop addition.
Spence
Attachments
OP
Spencer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,267
- Location
- Western Michigan
- Tractor
- NH TC33D w/R4 Tires, Rear Remote, Hydraulic Toplink, 2 Auxiliary Work Lights, 7308 Loader w/Kasco Uni-Hitch (Quick Tach)
OP
Spencer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,267
- Location
- Western Michigan
- Tractor
- NH TC33D w/R4 Tires, Rear Remote, Hydraulic Toplink, 2 Auxiliary Work Lights, 7308 Loader w/Kasco Uni-Hitch (Quick Tach)
Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project
Here is the first of three photos I took of the shop addition roof. It was pretty dark out by the time I took these so they aren't the greatest. I lightened them up as much as I could. Here you can see where I still need to cut three pieces of plywood to finish off the one valley.
Spence
Here is the first of three photos I took of the shop addition roof. It was pretty dark out by the time I took these so they aren't the greatest. I lightened them up as much as I could. Here you can see where I still need to cut three pieces of plywood to finish off the one valley.
Spence
