Spencer's Pole Barn Project

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

I have attached a diagram the the electric company faxed over to me. This is the type of central distribution point that they would normally allow farmers or campgrounds to put in. They don't normally allow regular homeowners to do this but in my case they made an exception. I made the attachment a .pdf file (Adobe Acrobat) and I hope you all can read that format. I have never tried attaching a .pdf file before so here goes. You can download Adobe Acrobat Reader for free at
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

This photo shows what I actually came up with. I tried to follow their guidlines. You can see their green transformer on the left side of the photo.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Here is a closer view of the central distibution point I built.

 

[WVBill]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( in my case they made an exception. )</font>

I'm wondering if they made the exception in your case because they realize they significantly under-sized the original cable for the "200 amp" service to your house.

I'd probably go ahead run the new buried cable to the barn - making sure it is sized for at least 200 amp service if not 400 - and put in the central distribution point. Then consider running a new 200 amp cable over to the house either now or later.

I think 135 amps is seriously under-sized for a modern house. Do you ever experience problems?

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

This photo shows the meter socket (or trough) that they supplied me with. I didn't want the normal 200 amp homeowner version so luckily they ordered me this oversize meter socket. This version is rated at 320 amp continuous /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

For Inspector 507, Franz, and others. I hope I wired this right, I am assuming the neutral goes in the middle and that I should have fed my load center from the bottom of this meter socket like I did. I left the wire on the left unmarked (just black) and I marked the wire on the right with red tape to identify that as L2, I hope that is the normal practice. If you guys notice anything wrong in this series of photos please speak up so I can correct it before they come to hook up the meter and before my inspector comes out.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Here is a picture of the load center that I bought. It is a Cutler Hammer model CH8B200RF
Their website incorrectly identifies this panel as a NEMA-1 Indoor panel. It is definately a NEMA-3 Raniproof Outdoor panel. This is a 200 amp panel supplied with a 200 amp main breaker that will serve as a disconnect for the Central Distribution Point. The beauty of this panel is that it is a "Feed-Through" panel. You can see the extra set of lugs on the bottom of the load center and the extra lug on the bottom of the neutral buss. I will feed my pole barn off of those lugs and later I can add a 150 amp breaker to this panel to feed another building on my property. I may also add some smaller breakers to feed some dawn to dusk lights for the driveway or my storage yard.

Again Inspector507, Franz, and others if you see anything wrong with the way I have wired this please speak up. I have the unmarked L1 line on the left, the red L2 on the right, and the neutral marked in white going to the buss on the right side of the panel. I am feeding this panel from the top as you can see.

Edit starts here:
By the way that is 300mcm copper cable I have running from the meter socket to the load center. That is the largest wire that would fit in the load center lugs without using a Burndy compression fitting. Everybody thinks that size wire is more than adequate for the short length between the two panels. The electric company will probably feed the meter with even smaller wire unless I can convince them otherwise.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Some of you may be wondering why I have these two panels mounted so far apart with that funky looking conduit between them. The attached photo should clear that up. The meter panel is much deeper (2") than the load center. The knockouts are centered in the sides of each panel so therefore the knockouts are 1" off-center from each other. They do make something called a meter-offset that accomodates this 1" difference but apparently they don't make them for 2 1/2" conduit. They only make those up to 2". So I went with two 45 degree pieces and a coupler. I wanted the load center to be up higher anyway so this worked out nicely. I have the tops of the two panels at the exact same height. The attached picture is from the top looking down between the panel. Why did I have to go with 2 1/2" conduit you ask? Well first off I was pulling the wire myself so I wanted to make it as easy on myself as possible. Secondly I am trying to make this setup work with whatever the future holds in store. I don't see myself becoming less dependant on electricity in the future.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Here is the last photo in this series. It shows the completed panels ready for the electric company to come out and do their work. The nasty looking tape is to try and keep the rain out of the meter trough until they get the actual meter hooked up. They need to hand dig the 5 or so feet from the transformer over to the central distribution point, bury their wires, and hook up the meter. Once that is done and my work has been inspected I will get another permit to trench over to the pole barn and run my own wire (375 to 400 feet of 350mcm aluminum). We'll see how this goes, I am not sure if I will focus on getting the other half of my roof on or finishing this electric up next.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( </font><font color="blueclass=small">( in my case they made an exception. )</font>

I'm wondering if they made the exception in your case because they realize they significantly under-sized the original cable for the "200 amp" service to your house.

I'd probably go ahead run the new buried cable to the barn - making sure it is sized for at least 200 amp service if not 400 - and put in the central distribution point. Then consider running a new 200 amp cable over to the house either now or later.

I think 135 amps is seriously under-sized for a modern house. Do you ever experience problems? )</font>

No actually they made an exception because I have a buddy that works there. He's also the one who got me the 320 amp continous meter trough.

I am planning on having a 200 amp service in the pole barn. I plan on doing some welding and maybe even get an old mill at some point but I don't think I would ever need more than 200 amps. Heck most guys are getting by with 60 amps or so. I thought a full 200 amps was overkill (and so does the electric company, the electrical distributor, and all the electricians at the electrical distributor who were all giving advice while I was there).

I haven't considered running new cable to feed the house with but I did want to hook it up to the same meter down at the central distribution point. That way I would only have one meter on the property but the electric company would not go for that. Right now I am paying 0.078712 cents per KWH on the meter for the house. They are going to charge me around .10 cents per KWH for the meter down at the central distribution point. If I didn't build the central distribution point and just let them put the meter on my pole barn, and then I wanted power to another building they would charge an extra .02 cents per KWH on that meter too. So this is the best case scenario I can get away with.

Its hard to answer your question on whether or not I have experience problems in the house due to that 125 amp breaker. I have had the electric company out here and they did a load test at the meter. Both sides were loaded pretty equally and the technician could not believe that I did not have significant voltage drop due to the 453 foot length of the cable. The only complaint that I have with power is that I seem to go through way too many of those KWH's compaired to my last house and I go through lightbulbs like crazy.

 

[Inspector507]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Spencer,
At the risk of sounding uniformed......Here goes /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I personally have never seen this type of metering enclosure used on a 200A 1Ø3W residential service before. The manufacturer says it's good for 1Ø3W or 3Ø3W. Do you know if you are to use the center terminals or not? That 5th jaw is for the 3Ø3W meter I believe.
There should be a neutral kit added somewhere to land the neutral wires which is bonded to the enclosure.

But I've been wrong before. Please check with your Power Company to make sure you have it wired correctly.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Inspector507, thanks for the quick response. I checked with my buddy at the power company and he is confident that it looks right but that is not his area of expertise (he is going to forward the photo on to a meter guy). I was fairly confident that I had it hooked up right but after reading your reply I thought I would get in touch with the manufacturer of the panel. So I called the manufacturer and spoke with one of their technicians. I ended up emailing him that same photo I posted here and he confirmed that I indeed had it hooked up correctly. I was contacting them to see if I could get some paperwork on the unit (like instructions or an owners manual). They do not have those available even though one of their stickers inside the box says "This equipment is to be installed.....in accordance with local regualations.....and included instructions". /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Inspector507]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Spencer,
In my neck of the woods, they would not connect a meter to that meter enclosure of a 1Ø service. But in other areas they use different types of meters, so it's best that you did check with both the manufacturer and the Power Co.
All depends on what the local authorities and power co's want /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[kensfarm]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Spencer.. I recently(last fall) had my meter moved from my back porch to the side of the house.. in order to build a mudroom.. the cable is buried under ground. I wanted to suggest an addition to your setup.. similiar to what's on your house.

"I do have a 200 amp panel in my house but there is a 125 amp breaker on the outside of the house right after the meter. "

My suggestion is to add a 200 amp breaker between your new meter and your new main.. this will give you options later on.. plus.. a single point to cut off the power. Safety.. when you need to work on your main.. adding more breakers.. wiring.. etc.. you'll feel more comfortable knowing the juice is off before it hits the main. Later on.. if you want to hook up a generator to your system for power outages.. you'll have a central point to disconnect from the utility.. and not have to worry about zapping the linemen down the road.

For my job.. the electric company wouldn't put in the meter.. until the inspector gave the okay.. I had an electrian do the work because of numerous reasons.. they had to ground all the copper pipe in the house.. my main is very old and the inpector made the electrician install a neutral bar.. which required rewiring everything in the main.. plus the main happens to be in a bathroom.. which is not allowed.. but mine was allowed under the grandfather clause.

I too.. have enjoyed reading.. and seeing your project through the phases.. I don't think it would be a far throw if you turned your thread into a illustrated Pole Barn Building book. Looks great..

 

[nicklan]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Spencer,
This looks very similar to what I had my electrican do for me to feed 2 barns and and future feed for my new house. My line from the pole around 200'. He (electrican) used 00 copper wire. If you ever get over this way, let me know and take a look.

Nick

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Update on power.

The electrical inspector came out a few weeks ago and looked over my work. He said I did a nice job and that all I needed to do was to add two ground rods, tying them together with at least #6 copper wire. I knew I was going to need a ground rod but was unsure on exactly what to do so it was a good thing I waited because I surely wouldn't have put in two. He said I needed two because the soil around here was so sandy. He said if I could get 25 ohms with just one rod then go ahead but I want do everything better than needed. I used two 5/8" diameter 8' long galvanized rods spaced 6' apart and tied them together with #4 bare copper wire and then went right up to the load center with that same piece of copper wire.

I think I mentioned earlier that I really wanted to tie my house into this same meter so I wouldn't have two separate meters on the property. After talking to the electrical inspector (he liked the idea too) I decided to try once again to talk the power company into letting me do this. The inspector approved what I had already done and put his sticker on the meter box. He said he would hold off calling in the approval for the power company to come out and hook up the meter until I told him wether or not I was going to be able to change things around and hook the house up to this meter. I took a whole week to get another denial from the power company so I tried calling the electrical inspector to have him go ahead and call in the approval. His answering machine said that he was on vacation until 6/30 so I went down to the township offices to see if he left the paperwork there and see if maybe they could call in the approval. As soon as I mentioned the inspectors name to the two ladies in the office one of them started to cry. While the inspector was down in Florida with his whole family on vacation he passed away. Aparantly he was a well liked man and I can see why. I only met him the one time but it was a pleasant experience. I told him what my plans were and asked him a few questions and he gave me some tips, not once did he try to make me feel inferior because I was just a homeowner and not a real electrician. I've said a few prayers for him and his family.

The township did call in the approval and the power company is out there as I am typing. They needed to dig aproximately 5' from their transformer to the new meter panel and then feed it with 350mcm aluminum wire. I am fortunate that I got charged only 85 dollars for them to do this work. There is a "hand digging charge" of like 15 dollars a foot and some other misc. stuff on the bill.

I went out there and took a few photos of them working. Here is the first photo showing the trench they dug from their transformer over to the meter panel.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

You may have noticed the shovel in the last photo. When I paid the 15 dollars per foot for a "hand digging charge" I thought a shovel is what they would use.

These guys seem to be a lot like us, even though it was only 5 feet they didn't use a shovel.

See attachment

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Here is a picture of the inside of that transformer. Maybe Inspector507 or somebody can tell us what we are looking at.

 

[WVBill]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Now THAT is the "Swiss Army Knife" of compact tractors! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Inspector507]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

Spencer,
The inspector was correct in saying if you got 25 ohms or less on your grounding electrode, you could forgo installing a secondary electrode. Most people find it easier to install the second one instead of trying to loacte a ground reference tester.
What you are seeing in the transformer is.....on the left hand side in the middle labeled H1A, is the "high voltage" primarycable coming in and terminating. Above that, in the top left corner is a fuse protecting the transformer. Most times depending on the load, they are a 15 Amp fuse.
On the right hand side are the secondaries where your new meter will connect to. The lowest terminals on the right hand side are the neutrals or grounded conductor terminations. Notice they are not insulated and not a shock hazard for the most part. I can see that 2 buildings or structures are already connected to that transformer.
These transformers are usually oil filled to aid in cooling of the windings inside.

 

[Spencer]

Re: Spencer\'s Pole Barn Project

As you can see in this picture, my current driveway didn't give me a straight shot into the pole barn. I wanted to correct this now before I trenched in the power lines that will feed the pole barn. I had to be careful around the cable tv pedestal that you see in the picture. This is on my property but it only feeds my neighbors house. I convinced the cable company to move it over into the joint easement area and get if off my property. They came out last week and did the directional boring to run the new cable but have yet to move the pedestal. So I had to be very careful working around the pedestal and the buried cable.