Soft brake pedal

[dodge man]

I just did a major rehab on my rear brakes. Its a 2004 Dodge Ram, 2500, 4x4 with the Cummins. I replaced the rotors, pads, calibers, and all the e-brake hardware and linings. After I got everything together, I bled the brakes, starting at the right rear, then the left rear. I didn't count, but I'm guessing the brake pedal was pumped 30 to 40 times for the right rear, and maybe 20 times on the left rear. I thought I had all the air out.

The good news, my e-brakes now work, they are a drum brake inside the rotors. All the old hardware was rusty and they never have worked since I got the truck.

The bad news, the brake pedal almost goes to the floor. Anyone that has done a set of disc brakes will experience the brakes not working well the first couple of times you use them after a brake job. This usually goes away after the first couple of stops. The problem is mine didn't get better, probably double the travel it should have. The pedal also returns very slow.

A couple of questions. What is the correct way to bleed brakes? Do you start at the farthest brake, the right rear, or the nearest brake to the master cylinder?

I didn't bleed the front brakes. I can't imagine they would have gotten any air in them. I only had the brake lines cracked for a minute while I swithced the calibers over. Do I need to bleed the fronts?

I assume I need to just bleed the brakes more, but does anybody have any other ideas? I'm going to pull the wheels when I bleed them tonight and have a look around and make sure there aren't any leaks.

 

[radioman]

It wouldnt hurt to bleed it all the way around. Next - I wonder if you have air in the abs module. does it chatter when you try to make abs kick in (skid it on loose gravel or similar) If ABS doesnt chatter - abs may need to be bled. I am not certain of your truck model as each vehicle is different. My malibu uses the key 5 times over 20 secs on then off on then off etc. My s10 blazer is a POS to bleed - I literally have to hook up a weed sprayer with brake fluid in it to bleed lines after the abs block and then make ABS kick in several times on grass then bleed normally all the way around. With malibu the answer was in the haynes book. the s10, I found answer after gleaning info online but no black and white instructions for the poor. check google and your haynes book for your truck and good luck.

 

[dodge man]

Thanks for the response. It was slick and icy out and I made the ABS kick in several times. It did chatter, but that seems normal. I didn't know you needed to bleed the ABS.

 

[sam5570]

I always start bleeding at right rear then left rear then right front. remember you need to what they call seat your brakes to keep them from being inconsistent, you drive down the road about5 miles and stop and go often not braking hard enough to get the pads or roter's to hot , this will seat the pads and you will have a consistent pedal if there is no air still in the system.

 

[YesDeere]

Always bleed farthest to the closest to the master cylinder. I'd bleed the fronts for sure. Double check your rear calipers and make sure they are moving freely and not cocked at all. Make sure the pistons are against the pad and not cocked as well.

Not out of the realm of possibilities for a M/C to go up just like that either.

 

[dodge man]

I really didn't have any brake problems when I started this, just no e-brakes. But yeah, its always possible the master cylinder went belly up at the same time. I'm still hoping for air in the lines.

 

[Viperdave]

the correct way to bleed the brakes requires cycling the ABS pump. but the reality is that if you didnt allow air into the system, you shouldnt need to bleed the ABS.

If air did get in the system, then the ABS pump needs to be cycled. Usually requiring the use of a star-scan. But i am sure the internet would provide you the correct wire to provide power to...

 

[Diamondpilot]

You need a special tool to cycle the abs module. There are home brew methods, check YouTube.

Chris

 

[Dmace]

If you didn't open the abs module or run the brake reservoir empty then you shouldn't need to bleed the module. Your problem is from not bleeding the fronts. Even though the line was only cracked for a couple of seconds while switching calipers, the new caliper was dry so its full of air.
Always bleed from farthest to closest to the master cylinder (passenger-rear, driver-rear, passenger-front, driver-front) and watch the reservoir to make sure it doesn't go below the LOW line or you'll suck in more air.

That parking brake inside the rear rotors sure is fun ain't it? :laughing:
I did all mine at 100k just because and forgot just how good the factory brakes were. They weren't that bad before replacing but felt like a sports car after!

 

[Diamondpilot]

I guess I did not catch that you did not bleed the fronts. Like Dmace said, bleed them. I still think there is a good chance you will still have to bleed the abs module before its all said and done.

I never minded the in the disc parking brakes.

As a side note next time you need brakes check out Brake Motive. They are a internet company out of Chicago. I have ordered over a dozen sets from them. I just put drilled and slotted rotors and new ceramic pads all around on my Titan cheaper then buying oem style stuff at Auto Zone. I get the stuff in 2 days FedEx.

I priced out oem stuff for a customers 06 Buick Lucerne. $174.95 to my door for all new rotors and ceramic pads. Auto Zone and Napa were both right at $300. I have been using them since I put brakes on my 03 Mountaineer at about 80K in 2006 and every kit has been top notch.

Chris

 

[dodge man]

After doing this project, I'm about ready to hold a hand grenade to my chest and pull the pin. I've done several brake jobs over the years, and this one has been a heck of a battle. It started with having to beat the rear rotors off with a 15lb sledge hammer. I had to buy new rotors, new pads, all new drum brake parts and linings, and new calipers, and I hope at $400 I'm done buying parts. I'm not sure of the hours I've spent doing this but maybe as many as 16. I've done brake jobs in a hour in the past. Doing the back brakes is really like doing 4 brakes instead of 2. You have two set of disc brakes, and then two sets of drum brakes which are the e-brakes.

For example, last night the only thing I had left to do was install one brake caliper. It took me a half hour to install it, which is only two bolts. The rubber boots that protect the sliders were always in my way. I just couldn't get the bolts to start. So I spent a half hour getting them started. Thats kind of an example of how the project has gone.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I bought a vacum brake bleeder at lunch today and will bleed the brakes again, including the front. I also thought about how much air was in the calipers when I put them on and wondered where all that air went.

 

[Dmace]

lt started with having to beat the rear rotors off with a 15lb sledge hammer.

You didn't use the manual adjuster to loosen the rear parking brake shoes first did ya? ;-)
Most people forget about that and getting the rotors off the shoes when there's a nice little lip on the rotor is not fun.

I just put drilled and slotted rotors and new ceramic pads all around on my Titan

You might not like that setup in a truck. The cross drilled rotors rarely work better than solid rotors due to less surface area unless your in a race environment where they are very hot all the time. Also, ceramic brake pads are pretty useless until they warm up but no brake dust is nice.

I run OEM rotors and EBC yellowstuff or greenstuff pads on my trucks, cars etc... Very good brake pads!
http://ebcbrakes.com/product/yellowstuff-high-friction-truck-upgrade-pads/

 

[timswi]

What I've found is that if you drive the truck about 15 miles at around 40mph the pedal should come back up..This has been my experience on a few brands of pickups...This is assumiing the brakes work but are just spongy.

 

[dodge man]

Yes, I did back off the e-brake linings before I tried getting the rotors off. It looked like they were rusted on the hubs.

I figured out what the problem was and I don't feel to good about myself at the moment. There is a right and left side for the calipers and I had them on the wrong side. This put the bleeding screws on the bottom. This left air in the area behind brake pistons with no place to go. Pretty obvious when you take a step back and look at it, but wasn't obvious to me last night. I swapped them to the correct side and bleed them and now every thing is O.K.

 

[timswi]

Yes, I did back off the e-brake linings before I tried getting the rotors off. It looked like they were rusted on the hubs.

I figured out what the problem was and I don't feel to good about myself at the moment. There is a right and left side for the calipers and I had them on the wrong side. This put the bleeding screws on the bottom. This left air in the area behind brake pistons with no place to go. Pretty obvious when you take a step back and look at it, but wasn't obvious to me last night. I swapped them to the correct side and bleed them and now every thing is O.K.

That's good news....the driving thing I was referring to assumes all of the air is out of the system...if you drive it a little, you'll probably notice the pedal stiffening up even more once the ABS system re-learns...

I've had spongy pedals after manual bleeding, even with all of the air out..

 

[Dmace]

I'm surprised you were able to get the brake hoses on and not twisted with them swapped. We all make mistakes, glad it's all set now.

 

[dodge man]

The calipers are actually almost a perfect mirror image, other than the bleeder being on the top or the bottom depending on if its for the left or right. The brake line mounts near the middle of the caliper so that didn't matter.

 

[Diamondpilot]

You didn't use the manual adjuster to loosen the rear parking brake shoes first did ya? ;-)
Most people forget about that and getting the rotors off the shoes when there's a nice little lip on the rotor is not fun.

You might not like that setup in a truck. The cross drilled rotors rarely work better than solid rotors due to less surface area unless your in a race environment where they are very hot all the time. Also, ceramic brake pads are pretty useless until they warm up but no brake dust is nice.

I run OEM rotors and EBC yellowstuff or greenstuff pads on my trucks, cars etc... Very good brake pads!
http://ebcbrakes.com/product/yellowstuff-high-friction-truck-upgrade-pads/

I like the drilled and slotted rotors because the never seem to warp. I put them on other trucks and cars with nothing but positive results including twice the rotors life.

Its very easy to overheat brakes when pulling big loads in back country roads with surge brakes. Everyone I know with every brand of tow vehicle has had issues but the drilled and slotted rotors seem to always be the cure.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Yes, I did back off the e-brake linings before I tried getting the rotors off. It looked like they were rusted on the hubs.

I figured out what the problem was and I don't feel to good about myself at the moment. There is a right and left side for the calipers and I had them on the wrong side. This put the bleeding screws on the bottom. This left air in the area behind brake pistons with no place to go. Pretty obvious when you take a step back and look at it, but wasn't obvious to me last night. I swapped them to the correct side and bleed them and now every thing is O.K.

Your not the first to do that. Glad it was a simple fix.

Chris