Shibaura Engine running generator

[Industrial Toys]

It's why when doing the process of elimination, I put a big booster clamp on the aluminum flange of the starter going to negative..

 

[zzjea]

Just got back. Cleaned everything including flanges, brackets and bolts. No luck with either the regular MH circuit or the car battery jumped at 14v. I'm beginning to think that all of these connection issues (especially ground) may have damaged the starter itself. It will run outside of the vehicle stand alone but can't crank the engine no matter what. My next option is to either load test it or take it somewhere that works on starters and see what they find.

 

[WranglerX]

Find commercial automotive/industrial electrical shop that rebuild starters and such and have it tested....It's the kind of places that does diesel truck and forklifts and such... Check local phone book.... Forget i-net...

Dale

 

[Industrial Toys]

All the people on here and no one that is capable is close by and can help? All just WORDS I guess. Cheap by any standard.

 

[westcliffe01]

There appears to be copious corrosion on every exposed surface of that unit. Look at the state of the flywheel and ring gear...

If I were you, I would remove the entire unit from the MH, take it home and deal with all of the corrosion by sand blasting, priming and repainting. Lubricate the ring gear with a little sticky grease. Verify the condition of the rear oil seal on the engine since the sealing surface of the crank is probably in a similar condition to the flywheel....

Because of the difficult to access location, I would replace all of the low voltage wiring and the solenoid and use copper anti seize at all high current connections to ensure good contact and exclude water from these surfaces. It wont be that expensive to do and should save you a lot of pain in the long term.

I just replaced the starting battery in my wifes Z4. It happens to be an OEM AGM battery and for whatever reason had just reached the end of its life. The charging circuit was applying 14V but it could barely crank the engine at all. I put in a regular lead acid 12V battery and the engine spun over like it just came out the factory. Yes, starter solenoids degrade and the higher the starting load the higher the current and the more internal heat is generated. The windings in the starter may be cooked if battery voltage has been too low over years. I think though that the starter pinion to ring gear friction is probably off the charts due to the corrosion. Gear flanks do make sliding contact and that flywheel looks nasty.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Most of the mobile generators that my friend replaces are corroded all to heck. They often put them in locations suceptible to road spray. It's quite sad.

 

[WranglerX]

All the people on here and no one that is capable is close by and can help? All just WORDS I guess. Cheap by any standard.

Sorry but his profile does not reflect where he lives... IF he were close I might be inclined to help... Other than just "offer words"...

Dale

 

[zzjea]

I took the starter to Autozone but they would not test it as their tester is automated for a specific car and part which this does not correspond to. I went over to HF and bought a cheap Bat Load Tester. I will use it next time I put the starter back in.

I am going to try to find a starter/repair shop somewhere on Monday in my area and take it to them for analysis. The diesel truck shop where I get my Cummins maintenance done should know a starter shop in the area.

It turns out that the current starter is probably not actually a Generac but an aftermarket. They told me it was a Generac but they may have meant that it was a replacement for the Generac. Giving them the benefit of the doubt. It cost twice as much as an aftermarket so I thought it was a Generac. It could have been bad or deficient from the beginning. I have been dealing with 3 starters: the original one (I don't have it now), the second one I'm pretty sure is a Generac but is obviously bad (carbon coming out) and this last one which may not even be a Generac.

 

[Industrial Toys]

My Onans/Kubota sets use Denso Starters. When I was having my issues, I just bought a cheap aftermarket one on E-Bay. Works great, but it wasn't my problem. Never hurts to have a spare starter for a Diesel Generator.

 

[zzjea]

Someone on a Generac forum made this comment:

Peddler wrote:
"I would guess you have an injector that is bad and flooding the cylinder and you coming up on hydraulic lock and the starter can't turn the engine over. Check to see if you have gained any oil which would be a sign of flooding a cylinder. Then I would remove all three injectors and try tuning the unit over. This is a touchy subject as the fuel is pumped at very high pressure and can hurt you if you get shot. I would disconnect the lines from the pumps if you do this. You could also try turning the unit over by hand when the start stops turning it to see if it is harder then normal which you may not know. Has the unit ever run for you?"

Any comments on this suggestion?

 

[Industrial Toys]

This is what I did earlier this year to troubleshoot a starting issue on a (new to me) generator.




Primitive I know.

Process of Elimination.

Known Good Mule Battery (Only Walmarts Best!)

No Go!

Took that bare copper wire and went onto the block. Unit started. Then found bad ground connections to block.

Funny, because when I was trying to use a Charger/Starter, the unit was throwing overvoltage codes. It's easy to get confused. Short high quality jumper cables can be very useful. I have a couple only three feet long, that I have used often.

 

[zzjea]

The previous starter was still in the garage so I decided to take it apart and see what was going on as of Dec. 2017 when I got the new one. It was full of carbon dust. I cleaned it up and sanded the armature and commutator and the brushes were worn but looked usable. I did not have a replacement set. I put it back together and hooked up 12v and it jumped and whirled when I applied power. It did not get hot or sound funny either. The case and mounts were corroded like the newer one I just took out. I cleaned those up too. Now I want to see if it will crank the engine. Still want to get both of them tested though. I will also try my new HF Bat Load Tester on them while cranking. I found a way to temporarily mount and un-mount the starter that males it much easier to test.

 

[zzjea]

Update.

I took both starters to an alternator/starter shop and they bench tested them and they both had bad armature wiring. So I have ordered a new one off Ebay from DB Elecetric.

I also took the starter solenoid out (a bear to do) and tested it. It appears to work correctly to me. It passes thru almost exactly whatever voltage I put on it (12.5v static or 14v if alternator is running on the car).
I load tested it with the new HF Bat Load Tester and it passed thru 10.5v under load. Someone on here I think said anything above 9v should start the engine.

Does this seem like a good solenoid to you?

 

[aczlan]

Update.

I took both starters to an alternator/starter shop and they bench tested them and they both had bad armature wiring. So I have ordered a new one off Ebay from DB Elecetric.

I also took the starter solenoid out (a bear to do) and tested it. It appears to work correctly to me. It passes thru almost exactly whatever voltage I put on it (12.5v static or 14v if alternator is running on the car).
I load tested it with the new HF Bat Load Tester and it passed thru 10.5v under load. Someone on here I think said anything above 9v should start the engine.

Does this seem like a good solenoid to you?

That should be good on the solenoid, my question though would be what was the voltage coming into the solenoid versus the voltage going out of the solenoid.

Aaron Z

 

[WranglerX]

A solenoid should be tested with volt/ohm meter.... Its either its open (not energized) and should indicate "infinity".... Should have "0" ohms resistance (or close to it) energized... Keep in mind it's just a switch, it either energises or it does not, it either makes "contact" across terminals or does not....

Contacts can be marginal with pitting from abuse of trying to many start with anything less than optimum conditions....

Dale

 

[zzjea]

A solenoid should be tested with volt/ohm meter.... Its either its open (not energized) and should indicate "infinity".... Should have "0" ohms resistance (or close to it) energized... Keep in mind it's just a switch, it either energises or it does not, it either makes "contact" across terminals or does not....

Contacts can be marginal with pitting from abuse of trying to many start with anything less than optimum conditions....

Dale

When energized I get 0.00 Ohms across the main terminals. Voltage is the same on input and output terminals when energized. Whatever voltage it receives it passes through. The solenoid was replaced with the starter 1.5 years ago so it has had limited activity since it would seldom start. The contacts would have been closed for longer than usual each time I tried to crank it since it would not start. This test seems to say the solenoid is good.

 

[zzjea]

Update.
I finally got the new starter in and tried it out today. I have made several tests and it will turn the engine over if:
1. I am running 14v to it from car battery (HD jumper cable with ground to various points, the only way I have tried so far) and
2 I have the (+) connected directly to either the starter or the output from the solenoid.

It will do its old trick if I do anything else. I don't want to try too many times as that is probably what burnt out the other 2 starters. It will not turn the engine over if I do not have the car running (14v) which may say that anything less than 12.6v might not be enough for this thing. My car battery is a little low at the moment as I don't drive much (retired) and sometimes the battery drops below 12.6v and I have to put a charge on it. I think it may have been 12.2v today, so I ran the alternator while testing.

That seems to tell me the solenoid is bad and not letting enough amps thru to the starter. I ordered a new solenoid today and it should be in this evening.

I have cleaned all contact points again relating to the genset. The ground from the jumpers I have tried in different scenarios so I think the ground is okay at this point. I do have an additional battery cable (ground) from the starter bolt to chassis frame ground.

I have isolated the testing to my car battery and not included the motorhome cables or batteries yet. When I get it running, I will start hooking those back up and see what happens.

It did actually run twice while I was testing with the solenoid in line but would not restart afterward.

 

[KenMT372d]

Still seems like you have large voltage drop on the [ + ] or [ - ] battery cable(s) path from the RV battery box to starter motor. Only takes one bad cable with corrosion inside the cable or one bad ground connection to or from the RV frame. Should be able to find the bad [ high resistance cable ] by checking voltage drop across cable when cranking engine. Cable shouldn't cause more than 1th to 3th of a volt when cranking engine. Which city / state are you in?

 

[WranglerX]

How may times have you been told the batteries and cabling (30 Ft) in MH are probably a good portion of your starting issues... That is probably why you smoked the starters....

To wit...

Last friday nephews car would not start (11:00 pm in his work place parking lot), solid battery, everything pointed to bum starter, had it towed..... Saturday morning 4-5 hours including trip to AP plus $121 for reman. starter, put new starter in car....Problem persisted.... Even put known good battery from Jeep (900CCA AGM) jumped to his battery... No go, starter pulled system down to just about 6 volts jumpers got warm ???????... Went with starter as problem because everyone said starter.... And a 100 miles (2 round trips to take him to work and pick him up saturday) ...

Put battery charger on his car and it sat overnight...

Sunday morning managed to get car started.... Horrible hammering noise under hood... WTH??...... Shut car off.... Open hood, nothing looks bad... Start car, no noise, shut car off, start car again no noise, no wait here it comes hammering sound from alternator.....Pop serpentine belt off, everything is quiet and motor starts and runs sweet...

Another $151 dollar for reman alternator and 4 hour fighting the thing and $270 later ... car fixed..... Seems bearings were going out in alternator, and with alternator jammed and serpentine belt with really tight grip, the actual starting problem was alternator locking things up...DUH!

Just because you have certain symptoms does no always accurately identify problem.... Solution look further....

Personally I think replacing ground cable from battery to MH frame and ground strap from MH frame to engine of gen. would be next try at fix and least expensive ...... IF no love there replace long cable from battery to solenoid with welding cable and just for "ducks" go one gauge larger than what is there now and make sure every connection is clean shiny bright and when assembled all connection are protected by anti corrosion grease....

Dale

 

[jaydee325]

OP, did you read my post #5?

From your last post, you do not have fully a fully charged Battery.

State Of Charge Reference Chart

Percentage of Charge12 Volt Battery24 Volt BatterySpecific Gravity
10012.7025.401.265
9512.6425.251.257
9012.5825.161.249
8512.5225.041.241
8012.4624.921.233
7512.4024.801.225
7012.3624.721.218
6512.3224.641.211
6012.2824.561.204
5512.2424.481.197
5012.2024.401.190
4512.1624.321.183
4012.1224.241.176
3512.0824.161.169
3012.0424.081.162
2512.0024.001.155
2011.9823.961.148
1511.9623.921.141
1011.9423.881.134
511.9223.841.127
Discharged11.9023.801.120

As indicated, a 12 VDC battery at 12.2 volts is only 50% charged.