Seeking Grapple Wisdom

[Weedy Fields]

One thing I did'nt think about when I got my grapple was the max opening/grabbing dia.
I bought mine for moving rocks to make a rock wall. I had a couple rocks that were too big to grab around.
They where maybe 1-1 1/2 ft thick by approx 4 ft in dia..
I could grab them on the thin way but they were too heavy and the would slide out of the grapple.
I could not get the grapple around them to clamp them on the 4ft dia.
I ended up just putting a sling on them and then I could lift and move them.

Maybe with more operator expertise I'd be able to grab them and lift them but I felt the slings where the quickest and easiest way to get them moved at the time.

The grapple I have does not have teeth that match, the grapple lid and base teeth are opposite each other so the tips go past each other slightly.
I can't pick up anything small while standing up. Maybe 3-4 inches round I can. I have tried pulling stumps with the grapple and I can't. They are just too tight in the ground. Type of soil is a big factor I imagine. I can grab them but I just can't get them out of the ground. Again maybe more operator expertise is req'd.

Here is a link to the grapple I have.

55" John Deere Compact Grapple - Compact Tractor Attachments

they guy is local to me so went over and picked it up.
no complaints so far.

 

[DieselBound]

Weedy, what's the max opening on that grapple?

Unless the stump's roots are amply severed you're going to have issues with popping it out. Even with an excavator you're best digging well down and around the stump. If I'm not using an excavator to bust out roots it's my tractor+box blade with rippers: the stump then waits for an excavator to pluck out (when I get my NX5510 and a grapple I'll be able to reduce my dependencies on excavators, a bit).

There will always be something that will be beyond the spec of a given piece of equipment's ability. The right piece of equipment is the one that is able to handle the bulk of what is needed to be done (never will one be able to do everything).

 

[Weedy Fields]

Weedy, what's the max opening on that grapple?

32" at the tips, maybe 33ish about 4-5 inches in from the tips.

 

[paulfun9]

I got a 66" tomahawk. I am happy with it, appears well built. And happy I saved quite a bit of money.

If your not out abusing them everyday the Tomahawk grapples are well worth the money. One of mine is actually a Tomahawk rock bucket with the grapple on it and its well worth the 1000.00 I paid for it. Especially when you consider just the rock bucket by itself that I originally went to buy was only 200 less.

 

[IslandTractor]

Go small, go light, go single lid. Save your money for other attachments. You'll have more net lift capacity to boot. Mine is 48", about 300lbs. Opening width is about 42-44" as I recall. Made by Millonzi who went out of business when the owner died quite a few years ago.

My grapple cost me $500 and is as basic as you can get. If I had to do it over again I'd get the same thing except that I like the much better designed and wider EA upper grapple arm. Someday I may try to convince EA to sell me just the upper arm and replace mine. Still, I've had my grapple for ten years and beat the crap out of it. The bottom is missing paint but otherwise in original shape. The upper arm has been twisted a bit but works fine. This is how I twisted the upper arm: (note that only one tine is touching the 2000lb rock which was not simply lifted but actually pulled out of the ground in one lift...I thought it was smaller as only the tip was showing)

 

[DieselBound]

Go small, go light, go single lid. Save your money for other attachments. You'll have more net lift capacity to boot. Mine is 48", about 300lbs. Opening width is about 42-44" as I recall. Made by Millonzi who went out of business when the owner died quite a few years ago.

My grapple cost me $500 and is as basic as you can get. If I had to do it over again I'd get the same thing except that I like the much better designed and wider EA upper grapple arm. Someday I may try to convince EA to sell me just the upper arm and replace mine. Still, I've had my grapple for ten years and beat the crap out of it. The bottom is missing paint but otherwise in original shape. The upper arm has been twisted a bit but works fine. This is how I twisted the upper arm: (note that only one tine is touching the 2000lb rock which was not simply lifted but actually pulled out of the ground in one lift...I thought it was smaller as only the tip was showing)

Why mention your cost and the make when it's not possible to get one anymore? This tends to distort today's reality for those looking to get one today.

Yes, absolutely, get a grapple that's designed FOR CUTs. Heavy "HD" skid steer grapples might be better for clobbering stuff with but they're not going to allow you pick up more stuff.

I'd already mentioned it, but sometimes there IS a reason for wider grapples. Thank goodness that manufacturers understand that there are different needs and that they manufacture to meet them.

Present data. Present how one uses what one has (the good, the bad) and then let people decide.

 

[IslandTractor]

Why mention your cost and the make when it's not possible to get one anymore? This tends to distort today's reality for those looking to get one today. Yes, absolutely, get a grapple that's designed FOR CUTs. Heavy "HD" skid steer grapples might be better for clobbering stuff with but they're not going to allow you pick up more stuff. I'd already mentioned it, but sometimes there IS a reason for wider grapples. Thank goodness that manufacturers understand that there are different needs and that they manufacture to meet them. Present data. Present how one uses what one has (the good, the bad) and then let people decide.

I presented the cost because when I bought it WRLong was selling grapples that started at about $1500. There has been way more inflation in grapple prices than steel or labor in the past ten years. And, CAD design and cutting systems have cut the hours of labor necessary as well as steel waste substantially over that time period.

Beware of the cheap vendors using 1/8" tubing but any simple grapple made of mild 3/8" steel and 1/4" tube will last decades. Nobody sells their cheap grapple to buy a heavier wider one. A few folks who bought large grapples regret it as they were sold grapples intended for skidsteer use. CUTs aren't skidsteers and more importantly are not used the same way.

Small is beautiful.

 

[DieselBound]

Island, there's no disputing the fact that inflation is taking hold: did anyone expect any different with the Fed jamming money into the banks?

I'd read in some other thread where someone had a 900 lb grapple on their CUT. I have you and others to thank for ensuring that I made the right choice for my (new) tractor: EA Wicked Grapple.

Size that is matched to your needs is beautiful.

 

[IslandTractor]

Island, there's no disputing the fact that inflation is taking hold: did anyone expect any different with the Fed jamming money into the banks? I'd read in some other thread where someone had a 900 lb grapple on their CUT. I have you and others to thank for ensuring that I made the right choice for my (new) tractor: EA Wicked Grapple. Size that is matched to your needs is beautiful.

Many dealers persist in recommending that CUT owners buy grapple sizes more appropriate for skidsteers. I don't know if it is ignorance or avarice. And, as virtually nobody buys more than one grapple in a lifetime (xfaxman excepted) everyone buying a grapple is pretty naive. It seems to make sense to buy a grapple the same width as your standard bucket but only if you don't bother to think about grapple physics and uses.

So, congrats on a new grapple. I hope you will join in educating future CUT owners about grapple sizing and uses.

 

[paulfun9]

Please entertain me by telling me why the physics I used when I chose a 72" grapple for the majority of use on my DK is wrong? Grapples just like tractor options, attachments and HP are all relative to both the person using them as well as the jobs that user is going to do with them and the one theory (just like yours on HP) isn't the correct one for everybody.

 

[IslandTractor]

Please entertain me by telling me why the physics I used when I chose a 72" grapple for the majority of use on my DK is wrong? Grapples just like tractor options, attachments and HP are all relative to both the person using them as well as the jobs that user is going to do with them and the one theory (just like yours on HP) isn't the correct one for everybody.

1) 72" grapples are heavier which means lower net lift capacity
2) 72" grapples distribute digging force over a wider area than 48 or 60 so digging power is reduced
3) Digging stumps requires only a narrow area of sod to be disturbed but a 72" grapple is far wider than necessary or desirable for any stump (note that even massive excavators use only 36-48" grapples).
4) 72 and even 60" grapples are less effective at pulling up roots because you either need to use the outside tine to hook under the root (which decenters the load and twists the FEL) or you need to dig three feet on either side of the target root in order to hook it.
5) 72" open bottom grapple requires two lids which increases weight, cost and complexity.
6) more difficult to maneuver in woods or near bushes etc
7) wide loads do not require a wide grapple. The human hand is a good example. You can pick up an eight foot 2x4 with a single hand. You can grapple and lift a bigger tree with a narrow lighter grapple.
8) Narrow grapples behave like the prow of a ship when driving into thick brush. They create a wedge that the tractor can drive through so no need to have grapple the same width as tractor.
9) the real benefit of wider grapples is primarily seen in construction where skidsteers can clean up a wider swath of ground debris with a single pass on a job site. Not generally a task that CUTs are used for.
10) narrow grapples don't have overhangs outside the arms of the FEL which lessens risk of torquing FEL arms when running into a solid object.

Did I already mention that wider grapples are far heavier and much more expensive and take up more storage space than narrower grapples that do the same job?

Nowhere is it written that a grapple should be as wide as a standard bucket. Buckets are sized largely on the ability of the loader to lift a full standard bucket of dirt. Grapples have different uses but almost none of those uses benefits from more width. Again, check out huge excavators that could technically manage a ten foot grapple...they use 3 foot grapples.

The issue with grapple buying is that most people have either never operated a grapple before buying for their CUT or have experience only with skidsteers which all have six foot grapples. Dealers generally aren't much help and tend to sell whatever the novice CUT customers believe they need which naturally but incorrectly is to match their standard bucket width.

Think through the physics and tell us why you believe wider is better.

 

[k0ua]

I will have to admit I have never wished for a wider grapple than my 50 inch. I have wished it were narrower a few times.

IT did you see what I built as and attachment for my 50 inch EA Wicked?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...y-wicked-grapple-bush-grabber.html?highlight=

 

[IslandTractor]

I will have to admit I have never wished for a wider grapple than my 50 inch. I have wished it were narrower a few times.

IT did you see what I built as and attachment for my 50 inch EA Wicked?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...y-wicked-grapple-bush-grabber.html?highlight=

Pretty cool James. I like both yours and rswyan's.

I've never felt the need for actually grappling the above ground portion of a sapling or small tree. My technique on smaller trees and bushes is two steps: 1) push the sucker over to expose roots, 2) once it's over the roots are exposed so I just slip my narrow grapple under the whole rootball and pop it out. With shallow rooted trash trees I can even take on bigger than sapling trees with this technique. With bigger trees I raise the grapple and push from about 8feet for leverage. Sometimes it takes pushing from more than one side to loosen up the roots but once I can see the roots pop up I just stick the grapple underneath, stick the tractor in 4wd low and push while curling the grapple. The last photo was a tree that I used my BH ripper on to cut the roots before pushing it over. Probably could do that with the grapple but it would be much messier finding all the roots. The ripper is great for that size tree.

 

[k0ua]

Pretty cool James. I like both yours and rswyan's.

I've never felt the need for actually grappling the above ground portion of a sapling or small tree. My technique on smaller trees and bushes is two steps: 1) push the sucker over to expose roots, 2) once it's over the roots are exposed so I just slip my narrow grapple under the whole rootball and pop it out. With shallow rooted trash trees I can even take on bigger than sapling trees with this technique. With bigger trees I raise the grapple and push from about 8feet for leverage. Sometimes it takes pushing from more than one side to loosen up the roots but once I can see the roots pop up I just stick the grapple underneath, stick the tractor in 4wd low and push while curling the grapple. The last photo was a tree that I used my BH ripper on to cut the roots before pushing it over. Probably could do that with the grapple but it would be much messier finding all the roots. The ripper is great for that size tree.

Yeah, but I can latch on and pull grape vines out of trees!

 

[IslandTractor]

Yeah, but I can latch on and pull grape vines out of trees!

Now that is something I would like to do. We have horrible fat vines in some of our trees. I usually dismount and wrap them around the grapple tines because it is impossible to actually clamp on them.

 

[k0ua]

Now that is something I would like to do. We have horrible fat vines in some of our trees. I usually dismount and wrap them around the grapple tines because it is impossible to actually clamp on them.

Build something like my little attachment and you can grab grape vines all day. it is kinda fun to yank them down.

 

[paulfun9]

1) 72" grapples are heavier which means lower net lift capacity
2) 72" grapples distribute digging force over a wider area than 48 or 60 so digging power is reduced
3) Digging stumps requires only a narrow area of sod to be disturbed but a 72" grapple is far wider than necessary or desirable for any stump (note that even massive excavators use only 36-48" grapples).
4) 72 and even 60" grapples are less effective at pulling up roots because you either need to use the outside tine to hook under the root (which decenters the load and twists the FEL) or you need to dig three feet on either side of the target root in order to hook it.
5) 72" open bottom grapple requires two lids which increases weight, cost and complexity.
6) more difficult to maneuver in woods or near bushes etc
7) wide loads do not require a wide grapple. The human hand is a good example. You can pick up an eight foot 2x4 with a single hand. You can grapple and lift a bigger tree with a narrow lighter grapple.
8) Narrow grapples behave like the prow of a ship when driving into thick brush. They create a wedge that the tractor can drive through so no need to have grapple the same width as tractor.
9) the real benefit of wider grapples is primarily seen in construction where skidsteers can clean up a wider swath of ground debris with a single pass on a job site. Not generally a task that CUTs are used for.
10) narrow grapples don't have overhangs outside the arms of the FEL which lessens risk of torquing FEL arms when running into a solid object.

Did I already mention that wider grapples are far heavier and much more expensive and take up more storage space than narrower grapples that do the same job?

Nowhere is it written that a grapple should be as wide as a standard bucket. Buckets are sized largely on the ability of the loader to lift a full standard bucket of dirt. Grapples have different uses but almost none of those uses benefits from more width. Again, check out huge excavators that could technically manage a ten foot grapple...they use 3 foot grapples.

The issue with grapple buying is that most people have either never operated a grapple before buying for their CUT or have experience only with skidsteers which all have six foot grapples. Dealers generally aren't much help and tend to sell whatever the novice CUT customers believe they need which naturally but incorrectly is to match their standard bucket width.

Think through the physics and tell us why you believe wider is better.

Again with no consideration of the specific jobs it was purchased for your post is simply laughable to me!

Maybe you should start by asking me what the specific job it is to be used for is or why I chose a wider one for the "majority of use" or even how many grapples do you actually have?

 

[IslandTractor]

Again with no consideration of the specific jobs it was purchased for your post is simply laughable to me!

Maybe you should start by asking me what the specific job it is to be used for is or why I chose a wider one for the "majority of use" or even how many grapples do you actually have?

Maybe you should realize that virtually everyone who buys a narrow light duty grapple on TBN sings it's praises and how it is virtually unheard of for one of those TBN owners to "upgrade". This is TBN not a construction website for skidsteers. Instead of being so coy, tell us what you do with your grapple and why you chose a heavy expensive 72" implement.

 

[Weedy Fields]

Pretty cool James. I like both yours and rswyan's.

I've never felt the need for actually grappling the above ground portion of a sapling or small tree. My technique on smaller trees and bushes is two steps: 1) push the sucker over to expose roots, 2) once it's over the roots are exposed so I just slip my narrow grapple under the whole rootball and pop it out. With shallow rooted trash trees I can even take on bigger than sapling trees with this technique. With bigger trees I raise the grapple and push from about 8feet for leverage. Sometimes it takes pushing from more than one side to loosen up the roots but once I can see the roots pop up I just stick the grapple underneath, stick the tractor in 4wd low and push while curling the grapple. The last photo was a tree that I used my BH ripper on to cut the roots before pushing it over. Probably could do that with the grapple but it would be much messier finding all the roots. The ripper is great for that size tree.

I think a ripper is critical.
I have tied pushing over small trees with no success.
The smaller ones just bend and the larger ones bend and break.
I'm working mostly on Ash Trees.

When my driveway was put in thru 900ft of hardwoods the excavator had to pull the stumps of lots of trees. All he used was a single tooth ripper on a large back hoe. Rip roots on both sides of the stump, reach over the top of the stump and pull the stump out. On some of the larger ones he had to rip all 4 sides several times going deeper every time. Even then at times he lifted the back of the back hoe off the ground.
Gave me new appreciation for the strength of a oak tree. Every thing over about 12" had to be ripped first.

 

[DieselBound]

The difference in weight between an EA Wicked Grapple 54" and 72" is 86 lbs. I don't think that 86 lbs on loader that's rated for 2,500 lbs is going to make a lot of difference. That's 33% greater width at the cost of 25% more weight. IF someone needs to be scooping up a lot of brush/material then by all means a wider grapple makes sense. And, generally, loose brush doesn't weight that much (if you're worried about an additional 86 lbs then there might be bigger issues to contemplate).

For myself, I wanted to more closely match the width of the tractor (65.7") while being able to extend out on a swing to snag blackberries (something I do as I mow along- lots of the blackberries are climbing trees, in which case I can't just plow the tractor over and brush hog).

Island, you either need to get paid for consulting or become a paid lobbyist for "small!" :laughing: