Seeking Grapple Wisdom

[IslandTractor]

Please entertain me by telling me why the physics I used when I chose a 72" grapple for the majority of use on my DK is wrong? Grapples just like tractor options, attachments and HP are all relative to both the person using them as well as the jobs that user is going to do with them and the one theory (just like yours on HP) isn't the correct one for everybody.

1) 72" grapples are heavier which means lower net lift capacity
2) 72" grapples distribute digging force over a wider area than 48 or 60 so digging power is reduced
3) Digging stumps requires only a narrow area of sod to be disturbed but a 72" grapple is far wider than necessary or desirable for any stump (note that even massive excavators use only 36-48" grapples).
4) 72 and even 60" grapples are less effective at pulling up roots because you either need to use the outside tine to hook under the root (which decenters the load and twists the FEL) or you need to dig three feet on either side of the target root in order to hook it.
5) 72" open bottom grapple requires two lids which increases weight, cost and complexity.
6) more difficult to maneuver in woods or near bushes etc
7) wide loads do not require a wide grapple. The human hand is a good example. You can pick up an eight foot 2x4 with a single hand. You can grapple and lift a bigger tree with a narrow lighter grapple.
8) Narrow grapples behave like the prow of a ship when driving into thick brush. They create a wedge that the tractor can drive through so no need to have grapple the same width as tractor.
9) the real benefit of wider grapples is primarily seen in construction where skidsteers can clean up a wider swath of ground debris with a single pass on a job site. Not generally a task that CUTs are used for.
10) narrow grapples don't have overhangs outside the arms of the FEL which lessens risk of torquing FEL arms when running into a solid object.

Did I already mention that wider grapples are far heavier and much more expensive and take up more storage space than narrower grapples that do the same job?

Nowhere is it written that a grapple should be as wide as a standard bucket. Buckets are sized largely on the ability of the loader to lift a full standard bucket of dirt. Grapples have different uses but almost none of those uses benefits from more width. Again, check out huge excavators that could technically manage a ten foot grapple...they use 3 foot grapples.

The issue with grapple buying is that most people have either never operated a grapple before buying for their CUT or have experience only with skidsteers which all have six foot grapples. Dealers generally aren't much help and tend to sell whatever the novice CUT customers believe they need which naturally but incorrectly is to match their standard bucket width.

Think through the physics and tell us why you believe wider is better.

 

[k0ua]

I will have to admit I have never wished for a wider grapple than my 50 inch. I have wished it were narrower a few times.

IT did you see what I built as and attachment for my 50 inch EA Wicked?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...y-wicked-grapple-bush-grabber.html?highlight=

 

[IslandTractor]

I will have to admit I have never wished for a wider grapple than my 50 inch. I have wished it were narrower a few times.

IT did you see what I built as and attachment for my 50 inch EA Wicked?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...y-wicked-grapple-bush-grabber.html?highlight=

Pretty cool James. I like both yours and rswyan's.

I've never felt the need for actually grappling the above ground portion of a sapling or small tree. My technique on smaller trees and bushes is two steps: 1) push the sucker over to expose roots, 2) once it's over the roots are exposed so I just slip my narrow grapple under the whole rootball and pop it out. With shallow rooted trash trees I can even take on bigger than sapling trees with this technique. With bigger trees I raise the grapple and push from about 8feet for leverage. Sometimes it takes pushing from more than one side to loosen up the roots but once I can see the roots pop up I just stick the grapple underneath, stick the tractor in 4wd low and push while curling the grapple. The last photo was a tree that I used my BH ripper on to cut the roots before pushing it over. Probably could do that with the grapple but it would be much messier finding all the roots. The ripper is great for that size tree.

 

[k0ua]

Pretty cool James. I like both yours and rswyan's.

I've never felt the need for actually grappling the above ground portion of a sapling or small tree. My technique on smaller trees and bushes is two steps: 1) push the sucker over to expose roots, 2) once it's over the roots are exposed so I just slip my narrow grapple under the whole rootball and pop it out. With shallow rooted trash trees I can even take on bigger than sapling trees with this technique. With bigger trees I raise the grapple and push from about 8feet for leverage. Sometimes it takes pushing from more than one side to loosen up the roots but once I can see the roots pop up I just stick the grapple underneath, stick the tractor in 4wd low and push while curling the grapple. The last photo was a tree that I used my BH ripper on to cut the roots before pushing it over. Probably could do that with the grapple but it would be much messier finding all the roots. The ripper is great for that size tree.

Yeah, but I can latch on and pull grape vines out of trees!

 

[IslandTractor]

Yeah, but I can latch on and pull grape vines out of trees!

Now that is something I would like to do. We have horrible fat vines in some of our trees. I usually dismount and wrap them around the grapple tines because it is impossible to actually clamp on them.

 

[k0ua]

Now that is something I would like to do. We have horrible fat vines in some of our trees. I usually dismount and wrap them around the grapple tines because it is impossible to actually clamp on them.

Build something like my little attachment and you can grab grape vines all day. it is kinda fun to yank them down.

 

[paulfun9]

1) 72" grapples are heavier which means lower net lift capacity
2) 72" grapples distribute digging force over a wider area than 48 or 60 so digging power is reduced
3) Digging stumps requires only a narrow area of sod to be disturbed but a 72" grapple is far wider than necessary or desirable for any stump (note that even massive excavators use only 36-48" grapples).
4) 72 and even 60" grapples are less effective at pulling up roots because you either need to use the outside tine to hook under the root (which decenters the load and twists the FEL) or you need to dig three feet on either side of the target root in order to hook it.
5) 72" open bottom grapple requires two lids which increases weight, cost and complexity.
6) more difficult to maneuver in woods or near bushes etc
7) wide loads do not require a wide grapple. The human hand is a good example. You can pick up an eight foot 2x4 with a single hand. You can grapple and lift a bigger tree with a narrow lighter grapple.
8) Narrow grapples behave like the prow of a ship when driving into thick brush. They create a wedge that the tractor can drive through so no need to have grapple the same width as tractor.
9) the real benefit of wider grapples is primarily seen in construction where skidsteers can clean up a wider swath of ground debris with a single pass on a job site. Not generally a task that CUTs are used for.
10) narrow grapples don't have overhangs outside the arms of the FEL which lessens risk of torquing FEL arms when running into a solid object.

Did I already mention that wider grapples are far heavier and much more expensive and take up more storage space than narrower grapples that do the same job?

Nowhere is it written that a grapple should be as wide as a standard bucket. Buckets are sized largely on the ability of the loader to lift a full standard bucket of dirt. Grapples have different uses but almost none of those uses benefits from more width. Again, check out huge excavators that could technically manage a ten foot grapple...they use 3 foot grapples.

The issue with grapple buying is that most people have either never operated a grapple before buying for their CUT or have experience only with skidsteers which all have six foot grapples. Dealers generally aren't much help and tend to sell whatever the novice CUT customers believe they need which naturally but incorrectly is to match their standard bucket width.

Think through the physics and tell us why you believe wider is better.

Again with no consideration of the specific jobs it was purchased for your post is simply laughable to me!

Maybe you should start by asking me what the specific job it is to be used for is or why I chose a wider one for the "majority of use" or even how many grapples do you actually have?

 

[IslandTractor]

Again with no consideration of the specific jobs it was purchased for your post is simply laughable to me!

Maybe you should start by asking me what the specific job it is to be used for is or why I chose a wider one for the "majority of use" or even how many grapples do you actually have?

Maybe you should realize that virtually everyone who buys a narrow light duty grapple on TBN sings it's praises and how it is virtually unheard of for one of those TBN owners to "upgrade". This is TBN not a construction website for skidsteers. Instead of being so coy, tell us what you do with your grapple and why you chose a heavy expensive 72" implement.

 

[Weedy Fields]

Pretty cool James. I like both yours and rswyan's.

I've never felt the need for actually grappling the above ground portion of a sapling or small tree. My technique on smaller trees and bushes is two steps: 1) push the sucker over to expose roots, 2) once it's over the roots are exposed so I just slip my narrow grapple under the whole rootball and pop it out. With shallow rooted trash trees I can even take on bigger than sapling trees with this technique. With bigger trees I raise the grapple and push from about 8feet for leverage. Sometimes it takes pushing from more than one side to loosen up the roots but once I can see the roots pop up I just stick the grapple underneath, stick the tractor in 4wd low and push while curling the grapple. The last photo was a tree that I used my BH ripper on to cut the roots before pushing it over. Probably could do that with the grapple but it would be much messier finding all the roots. The ripper is great for that size tree.

I think a ripper is critical.
I have tied pushing over small trees with no success.
The smaller ones just bend and the larger ones bend and break.
I'm working mostly on Ash Trees.

When my driveway was put in thru 900ft of hardwoods the excavator had to pull the stumps of lots of trees. All he used was a single tooth ripper on a large back hoe. Rip roots on both sides of the stump, reach over the top of the stump and pull the stump out. On some of the larger ones he had to rip all 4 sides several times going deeper every time. Even then at times he lifted the back of the back hoe off the ground.
Gave me new appreciation for the strength of a oak tree. Every thing over about 12" had to be ripped first.

 

[DieselBound]

The difference in weight between an EA Wicked Grapple 54" and 72" is 86 lbs. I don't think that 86 lbs on loader that's rated for 2,500 lbs is going to make a lot of difference. That's 33% greater width at the cost of 25% more weight. IF someone needs to be scooping up a lot of brush/material then by all means a wider grapple makes sense. And, generally, loose brush doesn't weight that much (if you're worried about an additional 86 lbs then there might be bigger issues to contemplate).

For myself, I wanted to more closely match the width of the tractor (65.7") while being able to extend out on a swing to snag blackberries (something I do as I mow along- lots of the blackberries are climbing trees, in which case I can't just plow the tractor over and brush hog).

Island, you either need to get paid for consulting or become a paid lobbyist for "small!" :laughing: