Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system

   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #41  
Micro Inverters with software seem to be all the new installs and to get the credit a battery system required.

Mine are old school… they just work and the components will be 20 years old in 2029…
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #42  
I was curious about solar array maintenance and found essential no required maintenance needed

During months without rain washing the dust with a garden hose does improve performance but this is only because it can be many months without rain.

I also adjust the panel tilt twice a year but only to improve performance.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #43  
About 10 years ago, I worked with a fried installing solar panels. Mostly residential, but we did occasionally do larger. The information I'm sharing is probably a bit dated, but here are my thoughts:

One of the things I did was a comparison of the benefit to the homeowner of an outright purchase of the system to a lease or Power Purchase Agreement (PPA). I'm sure things may have changed a bit in the ensuing 10 years, but at the time, the leases and PPAs were just an abysmal deal for the homeowner. The first ones I did the comparison on, it was 9 to 10 times more financially beneficial to the homeowner to buy it outright than to do one of the alternative arrangements, even if it meant refinancing a mortgage or taking out a home equity loan to do so. By the end of my time in that business, the guys pushing the leases and PPAs had gotten a bit more competitive: buying outright was only 7 or 8 times better.

One of the things we found was that the people who were pushing the leased or PPA systems would quote someone a price for a purchased system, but they often did so at a greatly inflated price, so their lease or PPA looked better when compared. It can be very difficult to compare the net benefits of the various systems, if that sort of analysis is not something you have experience in. The lease/PPA companies don't do anything to make it easy either. The smart homeowners made a point to get quotes from more than one installer, and ideally at lest one from a supplier who was not pushing alternative financing arrangements.

The middlemen are in business to make money also. The only way I would ever consider one of these lease agreements would be if I did not have the credit rating to get a home equity loan or other financing at decent rates.
_____________

As to maintenance: there isn't much. If you live in a dusty area, hose them off once in a while. that's pretty much it.

We installed quality panels from "first tier" manufacturers (and regularly checked on the manufacturer's financial condition as a means of estimating whether they would still be around years down the road.) The warranty was 25 years on the panels we installed. If I recall correctly, the panel we used were warranted to still put out at least 80% of their rated power after 25 years. That may well have changed over the past decade since I was involved. Many of the panels installed 40 years ago are still running today, and the technology has improved (they do degrade over time, losing a bit of max output over the years, but still provide usable power.)

The Microinverters we installed (mini inverters which attached to each panel) had a 20 or 25 year warranty. They are a bit more work to replace if roof mounted, since you had to go up on the roof and most likely unmount the panel to get to them). The string inverters typically had a 10 year warranty (larger units where you tied a string of panels together and fed them into a big inverter mounted where access was easy). So they would not last as long, but they were very easy to replace: not much different than installing an appliance that was hardwired in. String inverter efficiency has improved to the point that when we installed my system, I used that rather than micro inverters. I figured the ease of replacement outweighed the possible need to remove things from the roof, and even if I factored in the need to replace the string inverter at 10 or 12 years, the cost was not all that different.

In all the time I was working with this business, we had only one microinverter fail, and it did so within a few weeks of installation. This happened on my own system, so we just submitted the warranty claim, got the replacement, and put it in.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system
  • Thread Starter
#44  
Talked with a builder friend and realtor friend. One told me about the Hazmat Waste when time to get rid of them. The other one told me about a current house not being sold due to complications with the leased panels.

What I am gathering is putting on the ground, and owning the equipment. I definitely dont want them on my new house roof. I am not doing anything right now but the state of Virginia is going to be mostly all reusable energy in the future and our bills are already going up to pay for it all. Got to love the Monopoly.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #45  
The barn needed a roof. Fed subsidy at the time was 35% State had another $2,500 grant. We needed to refinance the farm. Our electric bill was $800/month during winter to keep water buckets and troughs warm for the criitters. In general we use 3X the juice of a typical household.
For about $30K including a new roof we added 14KW of solar with micro inverters to barn. Our mortgage payment extended another 3 years, but the payment was the same.
Our electric bill is now $400 to $500 during winter while we pay nothing for 2-3 months of year when not running house AC etc. Our water heater and stove is propane and we heat with wood mostly.
We would have never done solar without the incentives and needing barn roof.
Payback will be slow, but it made sense given our circumstances.
 

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   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #46  
A couple questions regarding inverters.
How electrically noisy are they? My only experience with inverters is with ones typically used with a vehicle and they seem to be all over the place. Some you almost don't know they're running, others forget about trying to listen to a radio within 25' of it, they just obliterate everything. And all shades in between.
Tolerable in a temporary situation, but at a permanent installation that would be a deal breaker for me.

Also, how do the multiple "micro" inverters sync with each other so voltage, frequency and phase are the same from every unit?
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #47  
Also, how do the multiple "micro" inverters sync with each other so voltage, frequency and phase are the same from every unit?
They read the frequency of the power line and sync to it. They have to be grid-connected to work. If you lose power they shut off.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #48  
I never heard any noise from the micro=inverters on my system. Not sure they were suppose to make noise.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #49  
My large inverter is near silent and mounted outside.

The plus of micro inverters is each panel independently produces power and not dependent on others like a string system.

This also helps should there be shading during the day…
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #50  
^^^ This - we had shading from trees, and the solar edge optimizers per panel allow each panel to output separately. Out setup is 3 strings 8 panels each, and without the optimizers all the panels in a sting are derated to the shaded one.

The optimizers nor the inverter makes zero noise.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #51  
A couple questions regarding inverters.
How electrically noisy are they? My only experience with inverters is with ones typically used with a vehicle and they seem to be all over the place. Some you almost don't know they're running, others forget about trying to listen to a radio within 25' of it, they just obliterate everything. And all shades in between.
Tolerable in a temporary situation, but at a permanent installation that would be a deal breaker for me.

Also, how do the multiple "micro" inverters sync with each other so voltage, frequency and phase are the same from every unit?
Electrically, they are near perfect, as the voltage and phase gets adjusted tens of thousands of times per second. They have to be perfect to be able to reliably export power, in the face of changing house loads and grid voltages. Here, they are better than the local grid. (Long story, but the bottom line was our power quality got a detailed analysis at one point when our solar system was throwing over voltage errors. It turned out to be a grid over voltage issue caused by how our distribution line was configured (set too high by the utility), and exacerbated by multiple solar systems all trying to apply power to the neighborhood during sunny periods that further pushed the grid out of standard values.)

Each microinverter has the "smarts" to track the grid voltage and phase to enable it to apply the solar power as an export.

If the grid dies, microinverters and inverters have no frequency/voltage (waveform) to track so they shut off. If the house has a battery system, the battery controller will cut the connection to the grid and use the batteries to generate an AC waveform that gives power to the house, and a signal that the solar system can track to supply power. If the batteries are full, the battery controller will raise the frequency to 62.5-65Hz and the higher frequencies cause the solar microinverters and inverters to taper (or shut off) their applied power. All designed to be robust, and simple. Different parts of the world have slightly different grid standards and those standards are part of configuring the system.

Acoustically, silent.

Does that answer your question?

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #52  
I was approached this week by a solar company. I live in Virginia and our electric bill is rising due to Virginia doing away with coal and nuclear. There are solar farms popping up everywhere. Salesmen said I would save money over the long haul with solar. They own the panels and I would pay a 2.99 percent rate increase every year. Solar panels warrantied for 25 years. Showed me how much cheaper it would be for me over time vs increases by the electric company. I would pay nothing upfront and they would provide all maintenance on the system.

Anyone done anything like this? I am very skeptical about this.
Sorry... anytime someone mentions salesmen, I think of the movie Second Hand Lions...

 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #54  
My large inverter is near silent and mounted outside.

The plus of micro inverters is each panel independently produces power and not dependent on others like a string system.

This also helps should there be shading during the day…
It used to be that with a string inverter (multiple panels in series connected to a single large inverter) each panel in the string would only put out as much as the worst panel in that string. So if just one panel was partially shaded, the output of every panel on that string suffered.

The newer technology with string inverters uses optimizers mounted on each panel. These allow each panel in the string to put out their max output even if one is shaded. The optimizers are NOT the same as microinverters: the panels still all feed into a single large string inverter. It's just a bit of technical wizardry to overcome what used to be one of the main shortcomings of using a string inverter.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #55  
In my area the property tax assessors treat solar panels as extra square footage for your house.

We don't get enough sunshine or wind to make solar or windmills cost effective due to long payback times.

A good general rule of thumb to remember is that it's easier to conserve energy than to make it.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #56  
In my area the property tax assessors treat solar panels as extra square footage for your house.

We don't get enough sunshine or wind to make solar or windmills cost effective due to long payback times.

A good general rule of thumb to remember is that it's easier to conserve energy than to make it.
That's creative...I'd be tempted to arrange a meeting in mid January at the panels...

In all seriousness, would a 2,000sqft home with 1,500sq.ft of panels would be assessed at the same rate as the 3,500sq.ft. McMansion down the street?

All the best, Peter
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #57  
Good Afternoon bmaverick,
If you live on a farm, look into propane. It stores better, gives better energy density over solar during peak demands and it is fully off-grid. Most natural gas appliances can easily convert to propane too. Propane has a life of 50 years in storage too.
I agree ! If you are going to go solar, by the sounds of what I have heard from other people and people on this thread, it sounds like it’s best to own !

I pre buy my propane every August, I get a good reduction in price and am pretty happy with that
deal ! I am with Ultrarunner, if I ever did do it , it wouldn’t be with someone boring holes in my roof ! It would be out on the field JMO !
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #58  
I never heard any noise from the micro=inverters on my system. Not sure they were suppose to make noise.
Pretty sure he was talking about RF noise as in radio interference... Not audible sound.
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #59  
In my area the property tax assessors treat solar panels as extra square footage for your house.

We don't get enough sunshine or wind to make solar or windmills cost effective due to long payback times.

A good general rule of thumb to remember is that it's easier to conserve energy than to make it.
Ah Canada!
 
   / Salesman trying to sell me a solar panel system #60  
After reading all these post it's incredibly clear that you need to do some serious investigation for if solar is right for you.

It appears that for many people leasing is horrible. As I mentioned, when the guy called me to tell me that NY just had passed the law allowing leasing, he said it didn't work out for everyone. They also did have the option for me to make monthly payments. I believe at the time that it wasn't nearly a deal for me. I was basically going to have to pay the same to the solar company as I had been to the electric company.

In NY, they are not allowed by law to consider solar panels for assessment. Which really p@%@ me off when we've had to challenge our assessment and the town's assessor looks at a picture of our house and says, "I see you have solar panels."

The inverter in downstairs. It's nearly silent and I only notice when it turns on and off if I'm near it. It doesn't impact the WiFi.

One of the two companies we were dealing with when we were looking to buy them let me know that one person wouldn't buy until they gave him a quote to remove and reinstall the panels. At the time it was $1K that he'd need to add to getting a new roof. For us, a ground mounted system would have added $1-2K, but we didn't have as good of a sun view with the trees around.

We were careful about leasing and potentially needing to sell the home. Our lease agreement was incredibly clear that it was just a matter of letting the company know the name of the new owners.

As mentioned prior, we were interested in panels, but this was really a financial investment decision for us. It was ridiculous for taxpayers. I believe the system was $30K, but tax incentives would take it to $12-13K, and then leasing allowed a company to factor in depreciation and let us have it for $5200. If we wanted to own it at year 7, it was going to be about another $700. An now, because of bankruptcy, we ended up owning that $30K system for just $5200.

And all this discussion is just around residential.... I know someone that over the years has been approached about using some of their land to put in a solar farm. At least 3 separate companies have given him 10s of thousands of dollars, just for him letting them consider doing it! None have gone through with the final deal, but they've paid him just to let them investigate further...
 

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