Removing barn loft reinforcing

[aczlan]

We had a barn straightened in the mid 1990s, they used a large comealong to straighten the barn (it was leaning), then they used a length of 1/2" cable that went around the top front and bottom rear corners. They tightened that with a large turnbuckle and its been holding the barn ever since.

 

[ray66v]

Looking back via the follow up posts, the more I think about it, the more I suspect those 2 x 4 'braces' do nothing and probably were simply some sort of bracket for shelves or to hang something from.
That building is a dome, and domes are basically self supporting structures.

I agree.

That building was clearly built by craftsmen.

Those 2x's were clearly not installed to any degree of craftsmanship. Which strongly suggests they are not part of the original design.

I would do an inspection of the roof members to be sure there is no damage. And, upon finding no concerns, would not hesitate to remove the offending 2x4's.

If any of those large rafter trusses fail, the 2x4's are not going to do much to stop it.

 

[woodlandfarms]

In the end I would consult with someone with a bit more engineering skill.

We had a building where the center of the roof began to sag. Resolution was to tie the foor beams left and right together (they used 2X6 and dropped bolts through. They came in with a large center jack, got the center of the building up in hieight, then tied it all together. Now the roof was completely torqued so we had to re-roof.

If I owned your building I would consider cable to reduce the visual clutter. I would think One every other beam.

Architecturally it is gorgeous. How do you propose to keep it insulated? When you do insulate I fear you are going to loose everything that makes it look cool. Those beams are what sells the space.

Hummm. now wait a sec. Are you saying that you are just wondering about hte 2X4 and you are not battling roof sag? To me I do not see the SAG but I am not outside. Also, do the downstairs walls bow out? I do think you owe us at least an outside view of this georgeous barn.

 

[bigtiller]

We had an old dairy barn like yours when i was a kid. Ours never had any 2x4's like yours. As a larger than average kid, I was always put in the barn when bailing hay for other farmers, so i seen a lot of barns, and none of them that i remember had this type of bracing. I suspect someone built something years ago for what ever reason and this is what is left of his project. It wouldn't hurt to get a trusted, experienced and older construction owner/manager to have a look just to be sure.

 

[mtaves]

As requested by many, here are some additional pictures of the barn that should hopefully paint a better picture of what is (and what isn't) happening to the structure. The browser says the pics are uploaded but don't see them on my screen. If you don't see them either please let me know and I will try again.

2016-01-03 Pic1 - overall: picture of the barn. End wall is facing due south, I am standing SE of the barn.
2016-01-03 Pic2 - NE corner: when I started looking closer, everything at loft floor height looked true and straight. The problems with the barn structure are all at ground level, under the east sidewall. This is showing how the NE corner of the wall has moved, and how the foundation wall has started to break up.
2016-01-03 Pic3 - E sidewall from NE corner: showing some bulging out at the base. Picture is taken facing south.
2016-01-03 Pic4 - E sidewall from SE corner: same wall showing the bulging from the other end
2016-01-03 Pic5 - base support: this is specifically for Jim Timber. I recognize your name now from your own post. Hope this picture gives you what you were looking for. There are 2 ceiling joists spaced 10ft apart, consisting of three sistered 2x8's. Posts are 3 sistered 2x6's spaced 9ft apart.
2016-01-03 Pic6 - closeup: again for Jim, showing how posts are connected to the joists
2016-01-03 Pic7 - E sidewall gap to floor slab: this is the inside of the east sidewall, which has bulged out 2.5" from the floor slab.

Someone asked about what I was doing for insulation. I couldn't bear to cover all this up so plan to leave it uninsulated. It is still warmer than standing around outside in the winter...

I am comfortable with making mods to improve the loft structure. To fix the base will probably require some professional help.

 

[teg]

...The browser says the pics are uploaded but don't see them on my screen. If you don't see them either please let me know and I will try again...

Since the new server, you may have to resize them and upload them again, one at a time...

 

[Streetcar]

No pictures
I second the bracing does not significantly help structure.
I am construction engineer

 

[mtaves]

Apparently have to upload one at a time. Here they are, in the same order as mentioned in my previous post.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

I'm a licensed carpenter with a heritage diploma and 20 yrs experience. To me, that barn looks as straight as the day it was built and wonderful to see one still in that good of condition.

From what I can see, those 2 2x4s in the middle couldn't add any less to the structural strength if they were just lying loose on the floor. The ones on the end wall on the other hand, might be adding some strength to help keep the gable end from bowing. Hard to tell from the picture.

If your use is going to be limited to martial arts etc, I wouldn't be worried about the structure at all. Keep up regular maintenance of it and it should still last a very long time as is. I'd take some measurements and check some surfaces with string lines for straight and only worry about "improvements" if things start to move. Otherwise I wouldn't do anything to "upgrade" a structure that at this point (from the pics) doesn't have any problems.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Egon]

Just from pictures the barn may be a lot older than the loft or the bottom cement floor.


Your last picture tells the tale. The foundation is asking for help.

I'd suggest the present footings are not deep enough or wide enough nor will they have any rebar. Sulphates may have deteriorated the concrete.

Resolving the footings is not a do it yourself job. It could be done piece meal but that really isn't a proper solution. As the pockets allow start looking for bids.

 

[PILOON]

Maybe one ounce of prevention might be better than a cure down the road.
One concern that I'd have would be dampness creating rot on the base plates, and some must have occurred over time.
My thoughts along that line would be a wood preservative generously applied and or sprayed all along the base where the wood contacts the concrete.
I once used a pressure garden sprayer to do such a task. Worked quite well.

 

[Streetcar]

I second egon. Have a knowledgeable person repair foundation. Otherwise the barn looks great

 

[PILOON]

Maybe one ounce of prevention might be better than a cure down the road.
One concern that I'd have would be dampness creating rot on the base plates, and some must have occurred over time.
My thoughts along that line would be a wood preservative generously applied and or sprayed all along the base where the wood contacts the concrete.
I once used a pressure garden sprayer to do such a task. Worked quite well.

Looking at the side wall bulging either suggests bad or partially decaying wood but more likely lack of attachments to the concrete base.
If the base plates are sound you could always drill and add concrete anchors or expansion bolts.
Once built a large barn and we found it easier to add attachments using a hammer drill and installing expansion bolts.
We did a 60 X 200 riding arena with expansion bolts every 2 ft and 2 men did that job in about 7-8 hours.
Used that hammer drill and an electric impact gun to tighten them up .
Used 1/2 X 6" expansion hardware.

Back in the old days workers often simply liked to hammer in 4" nails into the relatively fresh concrete and call it good to go.
Dampness possibly has rusted thru 1/2 of those old nails allowing the sides to start bowing outwards.

 

[Egon]

Note the corner concrete broken and separated from the rest of the foundation & the interior gap!

 

[Budweiser John]

Yet another suggestion.
Michigan has a barn preservation organization which I believe to be an affiliate of a national organization.
It might be interesting to snoop around the net and see what's out there in your area. The Michigan group has provided technical advice and in some cases monetary grants to preserve rural structures. I recall adaptive reuse was a favorable buzz word when it came to grant $$.

 

[fried1765]

mtaves:

Thanks for sending us those pictures!
In my opinion you are WAY over thinking the situation!
That barn looks great!
It definitely does look like it needs a new foundation though.
If you will let me disassemble it, I could put it on a new foundation for you ..... AT MY PLACE!

 

[Cord]

I have a 30'x50' barn with a 30' high loft I have finally cleared of pigeons and all their leavings. I want to turn it into a usable space, but bracing inside really limits the practical floor space. The end wall bracing I will leave, but there is a brace mid-way on the roof down to the floor that I need to remove. I have seen numerous barns in my area that have collapsed, where the building had this same profile (although they were much longer) so want to make sure I don't screw up a loft that is currently in pretty decent shape. I have included two pictures to give a sense of the geometry/size. You can see the brace is bowing a little, which tells me there has been some (but not much) sagging in the middle already. I would appreciate any feedback/ideas on what to do as an alternate bracing to allow me to safely remove this brace. I have 2 ideas so far:

1: add cross cabling 10-12' off the floor
2: add diagonal bracing between studs, the opposite way of existing bracing. The existing diagonal bracing does not give any additional support at the midpoint of the roof. Bracing high at the mid-roof point and going down towards the ends, in an inverted-V, should improve rigidity over what the current 10' long 2x4's are accomplishing.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

You have what is called a "Gothic" barn. Think "American Gothic". They were a pre-engineered structure that was built on site to a set of stock plans. I actually have plans for them somewhere around here. I always thought of them as being my favorite barn shape. The design is actually a simple three hinge arch. The one hinge point is at the ridge and then there are two additional points at the floor. The rafter-floor connection is critical as it's transferring the outwards thrust into the floor joists which are under tension. Anyways, you can remove the braces on the left side of the photo. Unless they are trying to fix a problem with the rafter or there is a dormer cut into the roof, they don't serve any purpose. I'd be more reluctant to remove the braces at the end wall. Post additional photos of these braces so I can see if they were original or added later.

Does your building have a full lower level? If so, I'd like you to check the foundation walls to see if they are straight. Often the corner cracks are a symptom of a foundation that is failing. In the lower level, stand at the back corner and sight down the wall. It should be straight and plumb. If that wall is anything but, then you know where the problem lies. You can also look at the interior columns and see if they're plumb.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

Just from pictures the barn may be a lot older than the loft or the bottom cement floor.


Your last picture tells the tale. The foundation is asking for help.

I'd suggest the present footings are not deep enough or wide enough nor will they have any rebar. Sulphates may have deteriorated the concrete.

Resolving the footings is not a do it yourself job. It could be done piece meal but that really isn't a proper solution. As the pockets allow start looking for bids.

Revisiting the photos, I agree. The top looks great, the foundation could use some help. Not that it's going to fall down tomorrow, next week or next year but worth having a pro look at it. And don't expect them to come back with anything cheap for a solution. Foundation guys around here (both contractors and engineers) tend to panic and go WAY overboard on repairs.

 

[Egon]

Revisiting the photos, I agree. The top looks great, the foundation could use some help. Not that it's going to fall down tomorrow, next week or next year but worth having a pro look at it. And don't expect them to come back with anything cheap for a solution. Foundation guys around here (both contractors and engineers) tend to panic and go WAY overboard on repairs.

Unfortunetly, without foundation repair, the deterioration will escalate. It is a nice well built barn. Every farm used to have one but the age of tractors and no horses to feed has seen them disappear.

lots of fun jumping down onto loose hay. Lotsa work when bailers arrived and they got filled with hand stacked bales.

 

[mtaves]

Thanks everyone for the amazing and comprehensive feedback!

By consensus, and from looking at the loft more closely, there is no problem in the loft structure or the arches. It is hard to determine if the side braces are original or not: it is dressed lumber so not incredibly old, but floor joists are dressed as well. There used to be a similar brace on the other side that was removed to put in a furnace room. That being said, I cannot see how much support those 2x4's would give if something started to move - they are not positioned to effectively counteract the outward thrust at the base.

The foundation is definitely where some attention is required. The fractures could be a combination of years of frost-heaving plus an extremely active burrowing gopher population. I will be looking at gathering information from local professionals this coming year as to what needs to be done and what it will cost. I will definitely keep in mind that engineers tend to go way overboard (I am one and that is what started the initial question on removing the spindly side braces...). It will probably be awhile before I can scrape together enough cash to undertake whatever has to be done, but will post updates for you all once it does happen.

Someone mentioned a Michigan-based group that assists with preserving older rural structures. I will have a look to see if there is some equivalent in Alberta.

Thanks again everyone!