PUG F570

[johnwayne]

I just acquired a jackson, ms built pug. The breather was missing and the carb had 5 years of rain and pine sap in it. flushed and drained the oil several times, bought new spacer, carb, and breather assembly for the briggs vanguard 18hp. freed a stuck exhaust valve. got it running and tire-ject saved the tires. now I was running about 15 mph and a sudden jolt to the drivetrain happened and then it kept going, but I quickly stopped it, and rolled it back home. I am guessing something broke loose in the rearend/axle? I can find no one that works on these dana axle assemblies. lifting the rear of the pug, as expected when in gear, turning one tire by hand - the opposite tire turns the other direction. when in gear, turning the torque converter by hand, the passenger side wheel turns and the drivers side wheel merely twitches. I am assuming something is broken because what else could have caused that jarring moment other than a scrap of metal in the gears? think I can break it apart to look for metal shards without it going to pieces? I have a call in to the golf cart place, hoping they might have experience with similar axles. Hopefully some of the past contributors here are still hanging around.

If rstebbins is still around, I bet it was quite the conversation the day that employees cut the engine mount slots with a grinder wheel. Yep, original mounting plate had the slots cut by grinder. Also with the jackson pug, it is frustrating that the engine has to be unbolted just to get clearance to remove the belt or the blower housing.

and a minor issue, the gas cap had a cork gasket which had long deteriorated. I put in a large rubber washer for a new gas cap gasket, but now the tank experiences a high level of vaccuum with the cap on snug. any suggestions on letting the gas tank breath while keeping debris out of the tank?

i have the service manual to the engine, and have a "manual" which is just a high-level schematic of the pug.

 

[minton]

I just acquired a jackson, ms built pug. The breather was missing and the carb had 5 years of rain and pine sap in it. flushed and drained the oil several times, bought new spacer, carb, and breather assembly for the briggs vanguard 18hp. freed a stuck exhaust valve. got it running and tire-ject saved the tires. now I was running about 15 mph and a sudden jolt to the drivetrain happened and then it kept going, but I quickly stopped it, and rolled it back home. I am guessing something broke loose in the rearend/axle? I can find no one that works on these dana axle assemblies. lifting the rear of the pug, as expected when in gear, turning one tire by hand - the opposite tire turns the other direction. when in gear, turning the torque converter by hand, the passenger side wheel turns and the drivers side wheel merely twitches. I am assuming something is broken because what else could have caused that jarring moment other than a scrap of metal in the gears? think I can break it apart to look for metal shards without it going to pieces? I have a call in to the golf cart place, hoping they might have experience with similar axles. Hopefully some of the past contributors here are still hanging around.

If rstebbins is still around, I bet it was quite the conversation the day that employees cut the engine mount slots with a grinder wheel. Yep, original mounting plate had the slots cut by grinder. Also with the jackson pug, it is frustrating that the engine has to be unbolted just to get clearance to remove the belt or the blower housing.

and a minor issue, the gas cap had a cork gasket which had long deteriorated. I put in a large rubber washer for a new gas cap gasket, but now the tank experiences a high level of vaccuum with the cap on snug. any suggestions on letting the gas tank breath while keeping debris out of the tank?

i have the service manual to the engine, and have a "manual" which is just a high-level schematic of the pug.

Are you in MS....I have one also made in JXN. Have to replace brakes on mine and saw the link for parts on page 4 of this link.

 

[johnwayne]

@minton my pug was bought in MS. now looking for a tailgate photo or diagram to build one. when i serviced the brakes on mine, i had to modify a universal 3-leg hub puller to get the drums off.

 

[minton]

@minton my pug was bought in MS. now looking for a tailgate photo or diagram to build one. when i serviced the brakes on mine, i had to modify a universal 3-leg hub puller to get the drums off

I can send a photo but not clear on what you specifically need. To me, a tailgate is the dump bodies rear access point. My parts manual has diagrams of different sections of the PUG. Will any of those help?

 

[johnwayne]

@minton hopefully i updated my settings so that i see notifications sooner.. if you imagine the tailgate of a pickup truck, thats the piece mine is missing. If you have photos of yours, it would help greatly, especially how the ends that fit into the pivot point and latches are made. the "parts diagram" of mine is kindergarten at best, no visible finer detail. For the rearend issue i am having: I vacuum pumped out the gear oil and left a magnet in it. Found nothing other than miniscule grit from normal wear. the "ka-thunk" i experience occasionally when changing from reverse to forward now happens soon after the shifter change, if it happens. I chalked it up to older parts freeing up with the fresh gear oil. The Jackson-built pug has a spring loaded rod in the shift linkage. It may a situation of the gearbox being bound into gear by the shifter and the linkage expanding suddenly when the shiftment fully seats from its bound position. Or it could be something sloppy in the differential. Either way, I have nearly 20 hours on it now, and it runs great other than the "ka-thunk" after a direction change - which only now happens occasionally. Is there anything I can provide for you on yours? The powdercoating is flaking off everywhere, so I will be scraping and painting soon.

 

[minton]

johnwayne, sure, see if these help and if you need more let me know.

 

[minton]

Here are some more:

 

[Chuckles4547]

By the way, the starting issue is probably the neutral lock-out switch. It's just behind the motor and prone to corrosion and crud boggling up the little switch. It is an off-the-shelf part. Google nuetral safety switches and you'll find something that'll work.

Lift the box and wiggle the gear selector and you'll see where it links up to the NSS. Bonk it with a screwdriver handle or something lightweight and see if it'll free up. Maybe squirt some magic juice on it to clean it off. Worst case, bypass it untill you find another switch...just don't start it in gear, of course.

Did some research and a couple things I'd posted are incorrect. First, the transaxle is made by Dana Spicer and is a Model 012 (or just Model 12). They are very common and still in production and parts are easy to get.
Same for brakes.

The engine, a Briggs 18hp v-twin, is as common as house flies - nothing about it is hard to find or repair. The rest of the PUG is pretty simple and straightforward. The only problem we have had was NOT a broken axle but a seized bearing on the axle. The previous owner got it wet...a lot...and several of the bearings in the rear end assembly were shot. We replaced them all. All bearings are standard, off-the-shelf stuff - $10 each all day long - and easy to replace.

As near as we can tell the only potential problem with parts is the rear axles. They are $100 each and there are four and have the drive sprockets welded onto them. The axles will never wear out - they ride on bearings - but the sprockets could wear out after a couple thousand hours. Even then, it might be a relatively simple thing to cut the sprocket off and weld on a new one. So far, that is the only odd item on this machine. Everything else is pretty much "hardware store" stuff. Even control arm bushings are a commong NAPA item. Very simple, very rugged, made in USA machine. If you own a welder and a hammer, you can fix about anything on it.

Hello, Any chance of anyone having a part # for the rear axle bearing for the 012. I had a axle shaft leak. And pulled the shaft, can't seem to find a # on it. Bearing appears to sealed on one side as there is no seal.

 

[minton]

Hello, Any chance of anyone having a part # for the rear axle bearing for the 012. I had a axle shaft leak. And pulled the shaft, can't seem to find a # on it. Bearing appears to sealed on one side as there is
no seal.

Try 1-(606)-872-0549...ask for Michael.

 

[minton]

Having trouble w/ engine idling...where on the carb. is the idle screw located and how do I set it?

Also acceleration isn't smooth which may be associated w/ proper idle adjustment.

Have replaced all fuel line, filter, cleaned out tank and carb. looks clean...suggestions? Thanks

 

[johnwayne]

firstly, i cannot seem to get the forum notifications to cooperate, so my apologies for taking so long to get back to you @minton .

carb -
my pug does not seem to be a standard configuration, as it has an B&S 18HP vanguard (v-twin) engine, and all the info I found says it should have been a 16HP in this build. Anyway, when I bought mine, it had trees growing though it and everything above the carburetor body was missing, so naturally it was full of water and besides corrosion, a winter had apparently cracked the spacer below the carb. My carb was too far gone and I had to replace it. I used this one: Amazon.com : Butom 845906 846109 Carburetor Carb for 809013 844041 844988 844039 809013 808252 807943 807801 809017 808370 808253 807905 844988 846082 845906 809011 : Patio, Lawn & Garden again, mine is 18HP. Worth noting that the float that came in that carb had a pinhole in it (soldered aluminum floats suck) so i did use the plastic float from the original carb. As the carb is pictured there at amazon, facing you is the bottom, the bottom of the pic would go toward the front of the pug, the top of the pic toward the rear of the pug, the right of the pic toward the passenger side of the pug, etc. So in that pic, the adjustment screw near the top of the pic is the idle adjustment screw. In the pic, the screw on the middle right is the rich/lean adjustment (which took a lot of guessing to get set correct-enough). With that carb, I had to also buy: Amazon.com: BH-Motor New Fuel Solenoid For 692094 FSL90-0009 B1692094 807664 692094 BC : Automotive again - because my carb was ruined by water. If you end up replacing the carb, get enough gaskets to go on each side of the plastic spacer under the carb, do not overtighten, those plastic spacers are hard to find.

other, fuel related -
try replacing the fuel pump, the vanguard engines dont like running with a failing fuel pump. also use some fuel line and replace the valve cover line that feeds/operates the fuel pump. A small leak could act similarly to a failing fuel pump.

compression -
have you checked the leak down compression on each cylinder? again, from my water issue, I had an exhaust valve sticking open on one of my cylinders (which is apparently also a symptom of these vanguard engines when stored for an extended duration (i.e.: a couple of years or more). I freed up the exhaust valve by removing the exhaust and the valve cover, and worked the valve, being careful not to scar it - while using a lot of PB blaster. I went from effectively running on one cylinder to two properly compressing cylinders.

sticking gas pedal linkage -
not sure who did what, but when i got it, the gas pedal linkage would catch and bind multiple places under that floorboard cover between the driver and passenger. As it was, I didnt see how it could ever work correctly, I completely overhauled it, repositioning things until everything worked freely.

overly worn torque converter belt -
rough acceleration could be a worn belt. I truly hope your pug was built better than mine.. to take the belt off or even adjust the tension on it - requires unbolting the engine from the frame and possibly modifying the frames' mount slots (if tensioning is what you need). My vanguard engine had a second set of mount holes which i had to tap and use because i twisted off 3 of the 4 non-grade-8 mounting bolts trying to get the engine loose. I went back with grade-8 bolts and a torque wrench.

is there oil in the air filter from the breather tube? -
mine had a split in the diaphragm of the breather valve, which after extended higher rpm runs, would pump enough oil in to the carb area that it would run rough and also soak the air filter, which would then compound the problem. replacing the breather valve cured that. I even ran a catch bottle on a line to the breather tube for a while after that replacement to make sure some other foul up wasnt also causing oil to escape the breather. I have since remove the catch bottle, and so far, so good.

Hope there is something helpful in here.

Separately from your questions, today I fabbed up a receiver hitch and custom hitch extension to be able to rear mount my winch or tow a trailer. the front receiver was a much easier project. you can see that I do not have the electric/hydraulic lift for the bed, would love to find the specs of what is needed there.

custom extension just clears the bed, and the receiver itself just clears the bed's footwell when dumping. of course the bed cannot dump with the extension in place.

extension clears the rear by just over an inch. pay no mind to the upside down winch, i was using it as a trampoline to see if i could get the front tires off the ground.. i could not.

 

[minton]

JW, you've been busy and so have I but to a lesser degree based on my skill set.

Hope the pictures helped in designing your tale-gate and associated parts; if you need more let me know.

Having trouble w/ mine running...checked out vacuum/pulse fuel pump and based on the tests it is fine.
Problem is when I crank up, it instantly fires up and then dies. On the passenger side looking at the top portion of the carb. there is an inlet for what appear as a vacuum line connection...nothing is connected to it.
Also fuel cap has cork in it but does have cut out section for venting purposes.
Any ideas...might be carb.

My lift bed extendable tube isn't working; there are 6 wires to the switch and 2 to the arm itself, yellow and red at the latter. How can I test if it's the arm itself or something else?

Your's is looking good.

 

[johnwayne]

@minton the tailgate pics were VERY helpful.

that line on the carb not having anything connected to it is definitely going to be AN issue. if not in use, it should have been capped to keep dirt out, if in use, it obviously should have been hooked to something. my new carb doesnt have that connection, where it would have been is capped off. IF i had to guess, maybe it is an overflow drain line connection? your carb may pre-date some of the EPA safety changes. my carb sends fuel overflow into the carb throat instead of to the ground via drain line, if the float needle fails to seat. you may need to pull the top off the carb and look for grit, clogs and stuck parts - debris could have gotten in the top of the carb and is causing problems.

their use of cork in the gas cap was a bad idea, it degrades and debris gets sent into the carb. i bought a large fuel resistant rubber washer from ACE and cut it so that the gas cap seals at the rim but doesnt block the tiny air hole in the cap. gas cap is not of the best design, but it works.

from your previous question, in your photo of your carb, the screw in the bottom of that image is your idle adjust, and it looks like the reset spring is in place on the linkage.

dying after crank - i have noted that on mine, if you crank it and then disconnect the battery, it will not continue to run for very long without the battery in the circuit. this could mean many things.. the charging system could be weak, there could be a killswitch relay that grounds the plugs when the battery is removed, or they could have a "faulty" design where the carb fuel shutoff solenoid is operated solely off the battery circuit and not by the charging circuit (which might actually make sense, as the headlights go out immediately when the battery is disconnected despite the engine running for a few seconds). so technically a weak or missing battery could cause it not to continue running - IF mine is operating as designed. And if mine is operating as designed - I dislike that design, as i would want to jumpstart and run my pug with a weak battery instead of being stranded.

you have the 'deluxe' model!! 6 wheels and power dump - nice! mine is a single rear axle, no power dump.. yet.

just guessing on the electric/hydraulic controls, without part numbers to pull diagrams.. looks like any labeling on the lift ram/motor may have been stripped or painted over, that's unfortunate.

IF there is no other connection of ground to the lift motor, then the red and yellow wires on the motor would simply be red = positive, yellow = negative for one direction and reversed polarity for the other direction. This is a guess without part numbers to pull up wiring diagrams, just using knowledge of other similar equipment, mine has none of the wiring for the lift. if the motor could be connected to ground in any other way, do NOT follow these next steps, as it could damage your motor. [obligatory warning:] DO NOT jump a test wire from battery to that connector with the hydraulic ram connected to the bed, one could lose an arm or LIFE. Now that that's out of the way, running wire from battery terminals to the motor's red and yellow leads should operate the motor. use a wire connector for negative lead, and then clips or a gloved hand to just touch the positive lead momentarily to the other lead to see if you get motor movement. if you get motor movement, swap the connections and see if you get reverse movement.
then assuming above test worked..
i have no idea if there are interlocks or other safety or limit switches in the wiring to the lift motor, my guess is not, but that is just a guess. assuming no other disconnects are in the system, that should be a momentary double pole - double throw switch. meaning that of the wires to it, one should always be positive, and one always negative. with the motor disconnected, a volt meter can tell you which wire is constant 12v (likely will have to have the key in the on position). putting the meter in continuity mode will allow to you find which wire is always negative. so then when the switch is depressed one way positive is connected to a certain color (red or yellow), negative to the other, on one end of the switch. pressing the switch the other way would result in a connection on the other side. my guess is that in the wiring harness somewhere, the red wires coming out of that switch tie together, then the same with the yellow wires (or more likely it could be two red/yellow pairings, depending on how the switch is made), and that with the black and white wires, one goes to positive, and one goes to ground [negative]. with the motor and battery disconnected, on the back/bottom of the switch, using a volt meter in continuity mode, put one probe on the black wire and depress the switch in one direction and place the probe on the reds and yellows there to see what the switch connects and doesnt connect. then do the same with the white wire, then repeat black and white wire tests with the switch depressed in the other direction. now you know if the switch is good, and which wire is positive and which is negative depending on which way the switch is depressed.
so if the motor and switch check out..
there could be some other disconnect in the circuit, there could be a relay somewhere that disables power to the lift switch if the engine is not running, or if the key is off, or there could be limit switches on the bed that are stuck.

 

[minton]

johnwayne, I removed the top of the carb. and there was alot of crud (looked like disintegrated red gasket seal) in the front side at the bottom. Vacuumed bowl out and cleaned w/ carb. cleaner as well as the needele
valve on top and passages. Put it back together and difference between night and day in running and performance. The open line at top is probably a drain as you mentioned but had alot of cob webs around it...I may cap it off.

I need to get the fuel resistant rubber washer for my fuel cap since it is cork.

I'm not having any problem w/ it dying after starting now since cleaning most of the carb. (wasn't able to remove the lower jet but sprayed what was exposed and used compressed air) so the crud in the bowl was probably
affecting it dying and I also set the idle up a bit.

Haven't been able to determine what's going on w/ the lift motor. There isn't any electrical wire ground but the metal pins that pass through the sleeves on either end, might be some sort of ground...just guessing.
I still connected separate wires dirrectly from the batt. to the lift motor harness w/ still no movement. There was some arc when I touched the alternate wire so must be doing something wrong.
Still working on it so hope to determine what I need to do.

Really impressed on how well it pulls and runs now...before the carb. work it struggled for the power to climb a hill but now it just powers up. I thought my belt might be worn but now I thinks it's good to go.

I'll let you know when I get the lift to work...if you need any more pictures of the tail gate let me know.

 

[johnwayne]

the more i think about it, that top line must be an overflow drain for if the float bowl needle doesnt seat. just put some fuel line on it, and fasten it so that the line cant get caught or pulled into any moving parts, and would empty outside of the frame/skid plate. the length should keep dust and bugs out. capping it could work against the carb.

if it arc'd, the motor of the lift could be seized. no idea if the motor can be removed from the hydraulic piston - in an effort to explore freeing the motor up.

if i decide to pursue motorized lift on mine, i'll definitely share my notes of any result.

glad you got it running.

 

[minton]

I'll do that w/ a piece of fuel line.

I saw some motor assemblies on either E-bay or Amazon that aren't expensive...just have to determine which one would fit the PUG application.

Thank you for your thoughts and help.

 

[minton]

Been trying your e-mail address but so far 2 failures...I must me copying it incorrectly.

If you get this, send me another one w/ it. Thanks

 

[johnwayne]

shocks, anyone know anything about sources for front shocks for the pug? they seem simple enough, but everyone around here sells per the vehicle it fits in, so they are no help finding correct shocks.

 

[minton]

Hi John...had to look at mine because didn't remember seeing shocks on the front
but there is and they are the strut type. There inside the coil spring and couldn't see any markings on them.

Now my backs had labels that said:
Car Quest
Gas
Charged XD
Tried to send you an e-mail but both had failure notice...did you change your e-mail?

 

[johnwayne]

thanks for that info, mine is a single axle unsprung rear-end. did not change my email, I will send you a new email message from me again so you can save my correct address and reply to it.