possible well pump problems?

[TheGoose]

If you can eliminate both your pump and well then the problem must lie down-stream. I'm just gonna ignore the geothermal aspect of it because when it's all said and done the geothermal system is just a water user and I don't think we should treat it any different than any other water usage appliance or fixture. It's possible that your bladder tank could still be bad even though it shows air pressure. Are you sure you evacuated all the water/pressure out of the system before checking the pressure? Sometimes it's possible to get a pin-hole leak and it will leak very slowly in/out and make it difficult to diagnose.

I would again bleed all the pressure out of the tank/lines and then I would manually bleed all of the pressure out of the bladder tank until it was empty of both water and air. Next I would re-pressure the bladder tank. Leave the water off for a while, perhaps several hours. Check the pressure of the bladder tank again. If it has dropped by 2-3 psi then you have a hole in your bladder. If the tank checks good then it really becomes a mystery. Perhaps a blocked line? Perhaps a hidden valve that got mysteriously pinched? Debris partially plugging the line?

Good luck and post up what you find.

 

[TheGoose]

Oh, and if your tank is bad get with me because you might possibly want to NOT get a bigger tank. I know that sounds illogical but I can explain if need be. The main thing that matters is that you keep your pump running while you are using water, be it geothermal or household use. There are several ways to do this and you can still get by with a small tank.

PS....a submersible doesn't have a footvalve. It has a check-valve, but when the pump is running it doesn't matter if the check valve is good or bad.

 

[merrickvilleguy]

Hello Merrickvileguy,
First off, the way the water is surging tells me that there may be something wrong with either your pump or tank. This is what I would do.

First, pull the cover off of the pressure switch and observe the contacts. Run the water until the contacts shut, which will turn on the well pump. Make sure that the contacts are staying shut and not opening/closing rapidly. If this is the case then you have a restriction in the 1/4" line going to the switch. Be careful, the points are energized and 230V can KILL!!

Ya the pump stays off when it hits 50psi. The pulsating I noticed was a one time thing. We don't see any rapid cycling, if I drain the pressure below 30, it stays on consistently until 50psi (maybe a minute to get that far) and shuts off and remains off.

You can easily test if your pump is good if you can find a way to easily block in the incoming flow with a valve and install a gauge on the pump side. I would try to run the pump and then slowly block in the gauge until you are almost dead-headed. When you approach the dead-head pressure you should have well over 100 psi on your gauge. If you do block in the valve all the way be careful because a submersible pump can produce well over 100 psi and if there is a relief valve in the line you could pop it and it may not re-seat or you could damage your incoming line or plumbing. It is difficult to know these things without being there myself. I am unfamiliar with local standards in Canada so you must take these thoughts into consideration.

The pipe coming from the pump to the house is underground, but I could separate the pipe in the house and do it there. Will have to pick something up, but do prefer to not burst my pipes =)

If your pump will pressure up then we can eliminate that as the problem. Next I would try to find out if the incoming line will pump steady flow. This could tell us if your well is producing enough water to keep up with the pump. I realize that being in the basement it may be a little difficult to do this but I really don't know how it could be done. Perhaps there is a way to send a line outside to let the open discharge line flow outside or run a hose outside? Using the pressure valve we installed I would start out with a low flow, say 2-3 GPM and then open the valve up until your water starts either pulsating or stops/starts completely. If it either pulsates or starts/stops then you have a problem with your production.

If I was having production problems at the well, (i.e. emptying it and drawing air), I would think with having the pump running for hrs to feed the geothermal it would show cavitation or silt in the water? (The geo just dumps the water into a second well). The pressure even after hrs of running the pressure seems to sit in the 20's (25ish) and I can still hit about 5gpm off my hose.

If you can eliminate both your pump and well then the problem must lie down-stream. I'm just gonna ignore the geothermal aspect of it because when it's all said and done the geothermal system is just a water user and I don't think we should treat it any different than any other water usage appliance or fixture. It's possible that your bladder tank could still be bad even though it shows air pressure. Are you sure you evacuated all the water/pressure out of the system before checking the pressure? Sometimes it's possible to get a pin-hole leak and it will leak very slowly in/out and make it difficult to diagnose.

When I tested I set the valve to the rest of the house (after the tank) closed, then opened the hose into my sump pit (conveniently adjacent) and left it open until no water came out. I lifted the tank and it felt light. The pressure at the air valve read 28. I can't preclude the possibility that there was water over the bladder but it wasn't completely full as no water came out.

I would again bleed all the pressure out of the tank/lines and then I would manually bleed all of the pressure out of the bladder tank until it was empty of both water and air. Next I would re-pressure the bladder tank. Leave the water off for a while, perhaps several hours. Check the pressure of the bladder tank again. If it has dropped by 2-3 psi then you have a hole in your bladder. If the tank checks good then it really becomes a mystery. Perhaps a blocked line? Perhaps a hidden valve that got mysteriously pinched? Debris partially plugging the line?

I'll give this a shot this afternoon.

Oh, and if your tank is bad get with me because you might possibly want to NOT get a bigger tank. I know that sounds illogical but I can explain if need be. The main thing that matters is that you keep your pump running while you are using water, be it geothermal or household use. There are several ways to do this and you can still get by with a small tank.

PS....a submersible doesn't have a footvalve. It has a check-valve, but when the pump is running it doesn't matter if the check valve is good or bad.

Ya, with the amount of gpm and time the geothermal uses, the tank would have to hold a few hundred gallons of water to meet its needs, for the rest of the stuff in the house we use low flow (toilets, faucets, showerheads) anyways, worst users are the dishwasher and clothes washer.

The big tell here is that it was a sudden problem and not chronic, and it happened around the time the water valve was stuck open (causing our water pump to run continuously for about a week or so without rest)

 

[Egon]

I turned the pump back on, filled the tank back up, turned the hose back on and let it run, it slowly dropped the pressure to 30psi, then made its way down to 20psi with the pump running, water flow was steady and not sputtering. Turning the hose off quickly raised the pressure in the tank back to 50psi./QUOTE]



I'm surely getting confused here but that is a normal state for me.

The systems pressures up, doesn't cycle frequently and is meeting household demands.

What should be fixed?

Set the high pressure cut-off to 60 psi. and inflate the tank bladder to the proper pressure. If all works then ?

In a water well a foot valve is usually at the bottom of the tubing string. So if a check valve is placed on the bottom of the string is it now a foot valve?

 

[merrickvilleguy]

well the thing is as an example ... before the change, I was able to have a shower (2.5gpm head) while the furnace is running. Now I can't.

When the furnace is off, I can shower, use sinks (0.5gpm) etc just fine with very little noticeable change in pressure.

The only thing I can think of is that if this problem has been ongoing, that the valve in the furnace was restricting the flow to the furnace to the point there was enough water for everything else?

 

[milkman636]

Is there a flow regulating valve at the heat pump that was adjusted as part of your recent heat pump service?

 

[merrickvilleguy]

It was replaced altogether. Thats what got me thinking initially that it was the heat pump was just applying too much load to the system. But, to rule out other problems I took a look at what the system was giving without the pump in use, which led me to see the 5gpm and 25ish psi.

To be honest, I have no idea what the pressure is supposed to be like (namely because I don't know how big my pump is), I mean if it is a 1/2hp pump instead of a 3/4hp that might only give me 5gpm ?

Rob

 

[milkman636]

What is the pipe size between the pump and the tank?

 

[Egon]

Now I can see a little light.

Rob it sounds like a decision will have to be made. Check the furnace for proper water usage, pull the pump for inspection or do both.

 

[merrickvilleguy]

What is the pipe size between the pump and the tank?

I'm working off memory here but I think it's 1 1/4" OD

 

[merrickvilleguy]

Now I can see a little light.

Rob it sounds like a decision will have to be made. Check the furnace for proper water usage, pull the pump for inspection or do both.

We're actually doing both, the plumber we called thinks its iron scale in the pipes or possibly on the pump itself.

 

[TheGoose]

One thing I forgot to mention....

your installer can tell a lot by checking the amps of the pump. Any discrepiences with the pump should show up in the amps.

Good luck to you and post up what you find...and put some pics up. I would like to see your set-up with the geo system and all.

 

[merrickvilleguy]

So I've learned a few things:

1. my heat pump requires 6gpm min
2. my well pump is a 1/2hp pump which supplies 7gpm
3. both are undersized for the application

So looks like I will be going to propane heating.

The plumber I talked to insists its just a constriction of the pipe from the pump to the house, apparently they can fix that without replacing all the pipe?

Will see what thursday brings.

 

[Brad_Blazer]

I had a similar but more severe problem after I let the stock tank overflow all day. Good pressure behavior at the tank but low/no flow in the house. The filter coming into my house was clogged due to the dirty water that came in when the well ran down. Make sure to check all filters/screens coming into the house including faucet screens.

 

[Brad_Blazer]

It's a centrifugal pump so you might get up to 10gpm as the pump head/pressure drops.

 

[Egon]

Sounds like your the fellows out checking things are doing good!:thumbsup:

 

[merrickvilleguy]

furnace guy was here today and confirmed that the valve he replaced was pretty badly plugged before and thats why we never noticed the flow problem before ... instead of using the 6gpm it is supposed to we were using around 2-3

 

[PILOON]

One thing I learned with submerged pumps and bladder tank installations.
Often minute leaks in fittings or eroded check or foot valves will allow pressure 'bleed down' that results in some of these sympoms.
That is asuming the tank is OK.

My solution is not to only depend on the foot valve only so I like to install an additional check valve close to where the water enters the tank and before the pressure switch.
That way you eliminate all bleed down problems and with submerged pumps that self prime it is mere seconds to pressure up the the bladder tank.

It takes but the smallest pin hole or rusty pipe joint to allow bleed down and cause pump cycling.

 

[kidstrustfund]

I think you found your problem. The following is my opinion. I m not in front of your system so use your own judgement on how to proceed. The pump delivers 7 gpm. Your heat pump uses 6 gpm. 1 gpm for your house won't cut it. The reason things worked before is the valve at the heat pump was restricting the gpm. You also complained that you didn't like the performance of the heat pump. That supports the starved heat pump theory. Your heat pump was starved of water. You should notice improved performance in your heat pump now that you changed the valve when not using water in the house. Do a test. Do not run any water in your house and run your heat pump. Choke your main valve so your heat pump gets 3 gpm. You can do that by choking the main valve and pulling water from a hose connection down stream. Use a bucket and throttle the main valve until you get 3 gpm. Note the heat pump's performance. Does your heat pump run any better when your main valve is opened and delivering 5 gpm as opposed to running at 3 gpm? Consider upgrading to a pump that can deliver 11 gpm minimum. I am not a well driller so I do not know if your well can deliver 11 gpm. Perhaps " The Goose" can advise us on that one. I am a master plumber. I do gas heating and plumbing for a living. Around my area you do not want a plumber trouble shooting well / pump systems. I am an exception because I maintain over 20 well / pump systems and did customer repairs for 30 years. I also am a cheap scape, so I do the maintenance myself. Replacing the pump is cheaper than replacing the heater. Your plumber believes you have a restriction in your well / pump system. This is something I was thinking could be a problem in the beginning. Their could be a few things going on. Pump isn't big enough to deliver 11 gpm, and you have restrictions in your system. Based on the info I have on my end of the computer I would replace the pump with a bigger pump after asking your local well driller if your well can deliver 11 gpm. You may want a separate pump system for your heat pump based on your well driller's recommendations. Air rate the well prior to installing the new larger pump. If things still do not deliver enough gpm's to satisfy your heat pump and house, replace or unclog your well line up to the heat pump and main house valve. Around my way propane goes up to 3.50 + per gallon in the winter. Your outlay would be more if you convert to propane( unless you go with a new well). Research if the heat pump will work in your area if it has enough water to satisfy it's needs. Research if a properly functioning heat pump is cheaper to run than a high efficient propane with fuel costing the highest rate of propane in your area. Also research if the temps of a properly running heat pump are comfortable. I am not a heat pump man so I don't know the answer to that. Its been a while since I replaced a pump but your well driller should be able to replace it for 1000 complete. Air rating the well should cost you 300. Unclogging your well line is something I can't comment on. I am retired from plumbing for 9 years now. My pricing could be low. I am stunned by what things cost now a days. I sound old with that last comment. Good luck. I'll be happy to follow this. Tom

 

[merrickvilleguy]

I actually learned some more info off the furnace guy, these things are designed to have a sink temperature of around 50, and their break even point is around 37. Our well water temperature is 38. So as we speak right now the heat pump has been on for the 3 hrs I have been up, and our temperature is at 60. We have the thermostat set to 68. The furnace guy says the heat pump is quite small for this size of house (who knows why the previous owners went with it ?), and that in general, when it gets cold up here, most people have to supplement with wood to keep the temperature in the house up. After receiving our electricity bill, it would seem we averaged around 70-75kwh in the last month heating the house, and that's on top of burning 3-4 face cord of wood in our air tight fireplace insert.

A quick test showed I can fill 4x 5 gallon pails in just under 4 minutes after we shut the heat pump off and let it turn completely off, and before letting the pressure tank charge. So I am assuming we have plenty of water in the well, its just the pump is unable to deliver it to the house (either clogged pump or line).

I have no illusions of saving money on going to propane, but, I do know that 60f is a bit cool to wake up to, and we are effectively wasting electricity trying to raise it. We are currently -4f outside (not too cold but just for data's sake)