possible well pump problems?

[merrickvilleguy]

Do you have a well loop or pond loop geothermal? Does the well pump feed the geothermal as well as the house at the same time?

Its an open loop water source from the same well the rest of the house runs off of. The return side goes into a 75' deep well about 40-50' away from the source side.

 

[lectro88]

I did not mean to infer that you did not know what you were talking about. I apologise if I did so.

Your ok, I asked as I said, to know exactly what we have at hand. And be able to give acurate advice.

Can you easily isolate the supply from the house. And know what you really have at hand, without feeding other systems, or possible leaks

Seems like you could have several problems, compounding or complicating accurate troubleshooting.

 

[whistlepig]

ya I'm not even sure of the size of the submersible pump I have, and even the dept of the well was a ball park from the previous owner (hubby died and wife wasn't 100% sure)

If I fill a bucket using it from full pressure, it takes no time at all to fill a 5 gallon pail. If I wait till the pump is running and the pressure is in the 20-25psi range, I get around 5gpm off the pump.

This problem was very sudden and dramatic and coincided with the pressure valve on the geothermal pump (i.e. a week before the valve went, we had no pressure problems, a week after the valve went, we did)

I think you have well pump geothermal. From what I have read on this post I think your pump is about gone. I think you already know this.

 

[merrickvilleguy]

Your ok, I asked as I said, to know exactly what we have at hand. And be able to give acurate advice.

Can you easily isolate the supply from the house. And know what you really have at hand, without feeding other systems, or possible leaks

Seems like you could have several problems, compounding or complicating accurate troubleshooting.

When I tested the 5gpm on the hose, I closed the valve on the other side of the hose so there was no other fixtures using water (including the geothermal).

On a side note ... if the furnace is off and we don't use water, the pump remains off for as long as I've paid attention (at least a couple hrs). The switch is audible from upstairs.

I know what you mean by many issues ... thats why I flipped the valve to get a time on the pressure/flow problem.

Pig ... After everything else I've come across I think thats the last thing left. If I had a leak between the pump and the house, the pump should kick on more frequently (whenever the water leaks enough to get the pressure down) ... but that doesn't happen.

So I guess a couple hundred to get a guy to pull it and 5-600 for a new pump ?

 

[whistlepig]

When I tested the 5gpm on the hose, I closed the valve on the other side of the hose so there was no other fixtures using water (including the geothermal).

On a side note ... if the furnace is off and we don't use water, the pump remains off for as long as I've paid attention (at least a couple hrs). The switch is audible from upstairs.

I know what you mean by many issues ... thats why I flipped the valve to get a time on the pressure/flow problem.

Pig ... After everything else I've come across I think thats the last thing left. If I had a leak between the pump and the house, the pump should kick on more frequently (whenever the water leaks enough to get the pressure down) ... but that doesn't happen.

So I guess a couple hundred to get a guy to pull it and 5-600 for a new pump ?

I'm trying to sort through this. I have had both systems. Submersible and above ground. Does not sound like bleed off. Pressure problem as you first guessed. I.E. bad pump. Submersible pump replacement around here is $900.00. Parts and installation.

 

[merrickvilleguy]

Well at least the pump hasn't failed completely yet, I just added some new traps to my collection to the tune of near $1600, so can suffer this for a month and some to get the cash together (maybe until the ground thaws if they need to dig up the line between the house and the well)

 

[kidstrustfund]

Go back to my previous post and I gave you a tutorial on some steps to do to solve your problem. I edited the post to the info I picked up from your posts.

 

[lectro88]

Seen this same situation happen several times. Whenever a pump runs continuious, and water table gets low or pump is starved or run, call it dry.
If the pump can pull the well dry. The pump is never the same, and damage occurs quickly, I feel you are experiencing a weak pump now. You can get by with it for a while, but heavy demands can not be met.
When you do replace, (I would) also install a larger bladder tank too.

 

[mmurphy]

Pumps And Tanks Forums! - ALL WITH FAILED BLADDER TANKS PLEASE READ
Here is some info to chew on before condeming your pump. A pressure tank if not sized right, or bladder is leaking can give symptons much like you are saying. This site has some vary good info.

 

[milkman636]

The OP needs a larger expansion tank. A 20 gallon tank does not provide enough drawdown for the demands of a heat pump and domestic water.

Removing 3-5 gallons of water may be enough to drop the preesure in a 20 gallon tank from 50-30 psi. Each pump cycle may represent less than 5 gallons of water being used.

Shut off all taps and outlets, let your pressure swith cut out at fifty psi. Drain water from a tap into a bucket until you hear the pressure switch click closed. That's the amount of water you're using between pump cycles, If it fits it one bucket, you need more tank. (maybe 40 gallon or larger)

Continous short cycling because of the undersized tank will shorten pump life dramatically. If the tank is sized right, the pump will have longer run cycles with plenty of time in between cycles.

Short cycling is generally a tank problem. If the foot valve fails, as one of the previous posters suggests, the pump will be cycling even though no water is being used in the house. Continuous running or lack of runnning is generally a pump/water supply problem.

 

[merrickvilleguy]

Just a note: apparently with geothermals (this is my first) it is normal for them to run long term, so should mean the pumps running a long time at a go?

If the pressure tank was shot shouldn't I be seeing short cycling? When I emptied the water from the tank with the pump off, shouldn't the air pressure in the bladder be low? I agree that a larger tank will help the pressure and delay cycling when the geothermal isn't running (which is a good thing) but, if the geothermal is running, the well pump will be running anyways as it uses a ton of water?

 

[milkman636]

If your well pump runs continuosly whenever the geothermal is on you have an undersized water supply. That would explain why you are getting down to 20 psi. You should be able to maintain normal operating pressures with miultiple fixtures open and your heat pump going full tilt. Your well, pump, or supply line to the tank may also be undersized in addition to the small tank. Possibly all three.

You should get some proffesional help in sizing your water supply system to satisfy the entire house and heat pump demand. It sounds to me like a geothermal installer that didn't do his homework. Is this your first winter in the house?

 

[milkman636]

I would add as much tank capacity as I could.

For example only: If your heat pump is using 5 gpm and runing for 10 minute heating cycles. Having 50 gallons of drawdown would mean the well pump would only cycle on at the end of the heating cycle to replenish the water used by the heat pump.

This is only an illustration to demostrate how bigger tanks will help your situation. This is not a specific sizing recommendation.

If you add larger tanks and still can't maintain pressure the problem will be outside of the house. That is why I recommend getting someone knowledgeable to evaluate the whole setup. It could be money well spent toward getting everything right the first time.

 

[kidstrustfund]

You are correct. If you had a bad bladder tank the pump will short cycle. To reply to a previous port. Their are different degrees of bad foot valves. What I was leaning towards is a foot valve that had a restriction in it. A bad foot valve to a different degree will let water back down the well. Same bad valve but a different problem. I agree that damage could have happened to the pump by it running the well dry, especially when a pump runs for an extended period of time. I am liking that call. I would think you then might have a bad well or restricted points because the well is not delivering enough water to satisfy the pump. But if things are close with the gpm's the well will deliver as compared with the gpm's the pump draws. I would try a pump replacement or air rating the well before you drill a new well. I always try to fix the easy/ cheep stuff first. Before you condemn the pump or wel,l look for restrictions ( they could be anywhere from the well point to the main house valve). A pump repair man/ well driller will not spend a lot of time messing around with clearing restrictions because of the time vs. money situation. The call back rate from messing around with existing well/ pump systems are high. He could charge you 100s of dollars and have a call back a few weeks later which would piss you off. Any way you look at this the possibility of this being a PITA is very high, especially for a beginner. Tom

 

[kidstrustfund]

To size your gpm requirements add 5 gpm's for your house if it is a modest residential house plus the requirements for the heat pump. I have run as low as 3 gpm's for a residential unit. That will barley get you by but I have run systems on that . Tom

 

[merrickvilleguy]

The big thing here is that I have steady pressure (in the 20's) and steady gpm (did a 40 gallon test in 7 1/2 mins), since there isn't any mud in the water, there isn't any cavitation or bubbles in the supply, I am leaning away from the well being run dry. So either its the foot valve or pump that's done. In any event I'll be having someone look at it.

For the geothermal, its a 3 stage (22kbtu/29kbtu/aux heat) and from what the repair guy says its normal for them to run for long periods of time (there's only a 15-20f difference between input and output temps) especially when its real cold out. Today we're at 30f outside and it ran for about 3hrs this morning, but hasn't ran since. When it was -25f out, it ran continuously and maintained 64f. Even before the problem started a couple weeks ago, the furnace never really maintained a decent temperature in this place, and required the fireplace insert going to keep it anywhere close to 68. I'm honestly thinking of scrapping the furnace to go to a propane one (along with finishing the basement) and go more traditional.

My last home was less than half the size, and had a finished/insulated basement (this place has an unfinished basement ... project for this summer) and had a 60kbtu NG furnace as an example of what's common around here.

 

[kidstrustfund]

Don't forget restrictions in the well line. It's a good choice calling a pro. Pumps and wells are frustrating to anybody other than a pro. I can't tell you how many hours I've spent wondering what was going on even after plumbing professionally for decades. Tom

 

[merrickvilleguy]

ya seriously, just getting that far took about 3hrs to nail down and get all the numbers together ... the big thing here is I wanted to get an idea of what might be wrong so I won't be taken for a ride by the plumber

 

[milkman636]

Here is a related link:

http://wellowner2.org/2009/index.ph...e&catid=51:home-heating-and-cooling&Itemid=51

 

[TheGoose]

Hello Merrickvileguy,

I am a licensed water well driller and pump installer in the state of tx. From your description of your problem it sounds like you have several possible problems. I will try to the best of my ability give you some solutions but it is difficult to know all the factors sitting behind a computer screen.

First off, the way the water is surging tells me that there may be something wrong with either your pump or tank. This is what I would do.

First, pull the cover off of the pressure switch and observe the contacts. Run the water until the contacts shut, which will turn on the well pump. Make sure that the contacts are staying shut and not opening/closing rapidly. If this is the case then you have a restriction in the 1/4" line going to the switch. Be careful, the points are energized and 230V can KILL!!

You can easily test if your pump is good if you can find a way to easily block in the incoming flow with a valve and install a gauge on the pump side. I would try to run the pump and then slowly block in the gauge until you are almost dead-headed. When you approach the dead-head pressure you should have well over 100 psi on your gauge. If you do block in the valve all the way be careful because a submersible pump can produce well over 100 psi and if there is a relief valve in the line you could pop it and it may not re-seat or you could damage your incoming line or plumbing. It is difficult to know these things without being there myself. I am unfamiliar with local standards in Canada so you must take these thoughts into consideration.

If your pump will pressure up then we can eliminate that as the problem. Next I would try to find out if the incoming line will pump steady flow. This could tell us if your well is producing enough water to keep up with the pump. I realize that being in the basement it may be a little difficult to do this but I really don't know how it could be done. Perhaps there is a way to send a line outside to let the open discharge line flow outside or run a hose outside? Using the pressure valve we installed I would start out with a low flow, say 2-3 GPM and then open the valve up until your water starts either pulsating or stops/starts completely. If it either pulsates or starts/stops then you have a problem with your production.