Pole Building -- Electrical Question

[SOS]

I'm building a pole buidling in about two months and plan on running electricity to it before next winter. Would #10 wire be as good as I need and should I run two wires? Here is some more information:

• I plan on dropping in additional breaker in the house fuse box and connecting the pole buidling to the house and putting in a small fuse box at the barn
• The buidling will be about 400 feet from my house
• I will run lights most of the time and a fan in the summer and maybe a tv/radio
• I will also run a compressor and possibly a small table saw and small hand tools and probably a charger for my tractor on occasions.
• No plan to hook up heater as I have a wood buring stove

Is this going to burn up the wires or my house or the barn?

 

[rambler]

Please get an electrician to set this up for you.

You are in way, way over your head.

I don't mean to be sharp about it, but..... You aren't even close to what you need!

At 400 feet, you need wires almost as thick as your thumb to run 60 amps that far.

It's pointless to go through the work & only set up a 20 amp box out there. Too foolish.

Why would you only run 2 wires? You need 4, set up a 220 amp box out there - if oyou only got 120, you will need even thicker wires to carry the amps! and, you need to run a ground wire these days. In some rare locations you can get an ag exemption and only run 3, but plan on 4 for most locations.

The compressor & table saw both are high-load startup motors that draw heavy amps for about 2 seconds as they rev up. You will _not_ get by with undersized wires. You need an honest 20 amps just for them. No cheating on skiny wires. The lights & radio will be on one side, the electric motors on the other side of the 220v hookup.

A voltage drop calculator I use says to run 120v 400 feet & have 20 amps at the end takes #2 copper wire. And that would be foolish, to only put 20 amps out there!

To run 240v out 400 feet & get 60 amps available so you have a decient setup, you are looking at running 3/0 aluminum wire out there. And have something you can use and be happy with.

Just for reference, your 2 wires, copper, #10, running 400 feet, will deliver about 4 amps reliably.

You are in way over your head here.

--->Paul

 

[BungeeII]

To put it a bit less harsh...

Sending electricity over that span of wire presents a challenge. What are you fighting against? Voltage Drop. How do you solve that? Increase the wire size. Go to your local supply house, they may help you out. (not a big box store) Aside from sizing the wire properly and installing the breaker and sub-panel properly, you also have to be concerned with meeting code for depth and/or conduit requirements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_drop


Startup of a modest compressor may peg 20 amps. Many higher.
Startup of a typical economy table saw may also peg 20 amps.
Figure another circuit for lights/fan and you can easily see that you should budget for a 60amp load.

 

[windy acers]

I HAVE A SIMULAR SET UP WITH 4 NO. 6 COPPER THROUGH CONDUIT.JUST TO BE SAFE YOU NEED TO LEARN ABOUT PROPPER GROUNDING AND USE A GROUND ROD AT THE BARN.I PUT IT ON A 20AMP 220 BREAKER IN THE HOUSE.I USE 1HP AIR COMPRESSER TABLE SAW DRILLS ECT.AND HAVE NOT TRIPPED THE BREAKER IN THE 3 YEARS SINCE I PUT IT IN.

 

[theboman]

I ain't no electrician, do well to spell it, but voltage drop is the number 1 killer of most things that run off electric. I've seen it bunches of times in the music world, and TV world.
Want a new compressor? Starve it for voltage and you'll have to buy a replacement.
I've seen many a good RV air unit ruined by those sayin' it'll run on 15 amps..... Ditto, for power amps, audio processors, video tape players/recorders etc.

 

[bullsram]

If it is possible move the building closer so you dont have to buy as much wire . You should go with atleast a 100 amp panel in the barn in my opinon and running aluminum wire is even more foolish. If you can afford copper run that all the way as it is a better conductor and doesnt get as hot like aluminum. Just my 2 cents... Bull

 

[lhfarm]

I just ran service to my barn. You can read about it here http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/139326-450-wiring-conduit-how-assemble.html. The best advice I got was from the power company. I asked them to come out and tell me what I needed to do. They sized the wire, conduit and service panel. Then I shopped for an electrician who would work with me doing the trenching and getting the conduit in the ground, so all they did was to install the service disconnect at the meter base and do the final hook-up.

It passed inspection without a hitch and I know it was done right and most importantly I have safe, reliable power to the barn.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I had the same situation with my shop and house being about that far away. After looking at the size wire needed to carry a 100 amp service, I decided to put in an extra meter and separate service to my shop. The power company ran the overhead wire to the shop for free since they didnt need to put in a pole.and the overhead lines wont bother anything in that area. I will have to run underground line to my house so I dont end up with a pole in my front yard, and that is going to cost me, but that is all part of new house construction. My builder tells me that the Arkansas power company will run the wire for the 200 Amp house service for $9.80 per foot if I put in the conduit, so that is my next project when I get back to the good ole USA. RIGHT after verifying with the power company what they suggest I do. This is a free service so why not take advantage of it.

 

[Western]

I just ran service to my barn. You can read about it here http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/139326-450-wiring-conduit-how-assemble.html. The best advice I got was from the power company. I asked them to come out and tell me what I needed to do. They sized the wire, conduit and service panel. Then I shopped for an electrician who would work with me doing the trenching and getting the conduit in the ground, so all they did was to install the service disconnect at the meter base and do the final hook-up.

It passed inspection without a hitch and I know it was done right and most importantly I have safe, reliable power to the barn.

100% agree on this, Your electric company engineer have seen allot of setups and can spot pending problems and give you good recommendations.

I had my electric coop out last week for this very thing. My shop has a couple of possible locations but, likely it will be 260' from the house pole. They will set a new pole and 200 amp transformer and a drop to the shop for $5.75 foot, still . cheaper than I can bury copper or aluminum. I don't like another wire running in front of the house so I am still considering having them do it with a ground base transformer, I just have to wait till after the holidays for their estimate.

 

[KeithT]

I have 100 Amp service to my shop. I had the conduit laid before the building was built and have 400 Amp service to my house.

The run is around 270' to my building. The electricians used 4 Gauge 4 wire aluminum. After accounting for the distance they told me i would have around 60 Amps available. I have a compressor and 220 V welder I use out there with no problems (not at same time).

Make sur you run large enough wire to exceed your needs in your pole building, you only want to do it once.

 

[SOS]

Thanks all. It looks like a job for a professional. I will probably do the ditch and ditch prep and drop a few lines in for a phone and a network, but leave the rest up to the pros

 

[ray66v]

This same basic question gets asked over, and over. There is ton's of information on this, in the FAQ search area.

As well as other popular repeating topics such as: ag vs turf, chains on the front tires, synthetic vs mineral, Oil filters, diesel fuel additives, pvc for air lines, mig vs stick, filling tires, bucket hooks, stone for driveways, fabric under stone driveways, generator size, and steering wheel spinners, (that one has not been back recently).

 

[Diamondpilot]

These guys gave you good info. 10 ga is not enough to run just your compressor at that distance.

I would go with 100 amp service as others stated. Do it right the first time or you could be looking at a fire.

Also when you have the trench open think ahead. I put in water, phone, cable, electrical, 2 cat 4's for internet alarm intercom ect, and the best thing I did was run compressed air back to the house. I put in a air station in my attached 2 car garage, utility room, and in my upstairs pantry. Used pex and have had no issues at 120 psi for 7 years now.

Chris

 

[bota7800]

Where does your electrical service come into your property relative to where you are planning this building?

In my case, the supply came up from the road roughly following the drive to house. When I had an existing pole barn and a new metal horse barn wired we excavated and tied into the supply line under ground* near the project. My electrician was concerned that if we came from the house and back to the new service there would be capacity problems. It also saved material and was a lot simpler job. He earned his money with me right there.


*The connection was made in a Traffic box.

 

[SuperCobra]

Thanks all. It looks like a job for a professional. I will probably do the ditch and ditch prep and drop a few lines in for a phone and a network, but leave the rest up to the pros

Looks like you're in my neighborhood. Check prices before you buy wire and rent a trencher. I found out after the fact that is was a lot cheaper to have the Rap COOP do everything. I guess they can get the wire that much cheaper in bulk.

 

[LD1]

Looks like your in my neighborhood. Check prices before you buy wire and rent a trencher. I found out after the fact that is was a lot cheaper to have the Rap COOP do everything. I guess they can get the wire that much cheaper in bulk.

Very true.

Check your COOP or local electric company.

When I did my shop I needed 60 ft for 100amp service. I used 1/0-1/0-2 aluminum (I think) And lowes wanted $2.84 per ft and the coop was $1.98 but I got it for $1.57 due to my mother working there.

As mentioned there engineers are also very knowledgable as well. I was pondering wether or not to run a new 200ft leg from the meter or just the 60ft from the house. And he avised me well. Since I had a 200a meter and a 200a box in the house he said it wouldnt matter as far as electriciy is concerned but it would be easier to go from the house. He also reccomended the wire sizes and reccomended just throwing a 100a breaker in the house box to connect, that way I could hook everything up without them having to pull the meter.

Don't quote me but if I remember he said it was 4/0-4/0-2/0 alum. for 200 amp and 1/0-1/0-2 alum for 100 amp. Those prices were underground triplex (no conduit required). I am no electrician but I am no novice either, but I don't understand everyones reccomendations for a 4 wire setup. What do you use the 4th wire for?? The 200 amp to my house only as 3, 2 hot legs and a ground?????

 

[SPIKER]

Very true.

Check your COOP or local electric company.

... I am no electrician but I am no novice either, but I don't understand everyones recommendations for a 4 wire setup. What do you use the 4th wire for?? The 200 amp to my house only as 3, 2 hot legs and a ground?????

4wire is required when tying to a 2nd building from the home, this becomes a sub panel from the original and sense it is in a different building it requires the ground and neutral to be separated in the new sub-panel. there is a ground potential difference between the two buildings... you need the 2 hot legs for 220 and a Neutral and a ground... while the Neutral & ground are bonded in the main panel then can not be bonded in the sub.

mark

 

[firefighter jim]

4wire is required when tying to a 2nd building from the home, this becomes a sub panel from the original and sense it is in a different building it requires the ground and neutral to be separated in the new sub-panel. there is a ground potential difference between the two buildings... you need the 2 hot legs for 220 and a Neutral and a ground... while the Neutral & ground are bonded in the main panel then can not be bonded in the sub.

mark

A cheaper route (since it is a long run) would be running 3 wires (2 hots and 1 neutral) (aluminum) and drive a ground rod at the new building for your ground wire (copper) from the new sub panel. And as SPIKER pointed out, do not bond neutral to panel. (sub panel will require a ground bar kit)

 

[firefighter jim]

Very true.

Check your COOP or local electric company.

When I did my shop I needed 60 ft for 100amp service. I used 1/0-1/0-2 aluminum (I think) And lowes wanted $2.84 per ft and the coop was $1.98 but I got it for $1.57 due to my mother working there.

As mentioned there engineers are also very knowledgable as well. I was pondering wether or not to run a new 200ft leg from the meter or just the 60ft from the house. And he avised me well. Since I had a 200a meter and a 200a box in the house he said it wouldnt matter as far as electriciy is concerned but it would be easier to go from the house. He also reccomended the wire sizes and reccomended just throwing a 100a breaker in the house box to connect, that way I could hook everything up without them having to pull the meter.

Don't quote me but if I remember he said it was 4/0-4/0-2/0 alum. for 200 amp and 1/0-1/0-2 alum for 100 amp. Those prices were underground triplex (no conduit required). I am no electrician but I am no novice either, but I don't understand everyones reccomendations for a 4 wire setup. What do you use the 4th wire for?? The 200 amp to my house only as 3, 2 hot legs and a ground?????

The 200 amp service feeding your house has 2 hots and 1 NEUTRAL (not a ground). The electrical panel is then grounded by an additional wire which runs to a ground rod, or in some cases, the cold water plumbing (if it's metallic and with a jumper around the meter). The NEC now requires a ground rod.

 

[kennyd]

A cheaper route (since it is a long run) would be running 3 wires (2 hots and 1 neutral) (aluminum) and drive a ground rod at the new building for your ground wire (copper) from the new sub panel. And as SPIKER pointed out, do not bond neutral to panel. (sub panel will require a ground bar kit)

That is NOT legal, at least here in MD for sure!