Pole Barn:Electric and H2O

[Bill_in_MI]

Suggestions/ideas/warnings desired:

I am building a barn about 100 feet from the house. Power requirements will be nominal so I am planning on running a subpanel from my (200 amp) service in the home. I would run 6Ga four conductor NM cable from a breaker in the house panel to a switch in the garage, then 6 Ga UF from the switch, through the wall with an LB fitting to a trench and on out to the barn main lug panel. I would like to add water for an inside garden hose hook-up and maybe to feed a lawn/garden irrigation system (no drinking/cooking) I am in Michigan so there is the frost line issue to deal with. Would have to go down about 3 ft to have year round water and use frost proof hydrants. Aside from local code issues, is there any reason not to run the water and elect in the same trench? Additionally, what type of water line should I run. I plan on penetrating the basement wall at the 3 foot below grade level and then continuing on to the barn. I'm thinking a minumum of 1 inch pipe...plastic of some from. Is there anything better than PVC?

Finally, I may want to run a propane gas line between the two structures for future consideration. This is the area of least knowledge for me. Same trench? I'll can size the trench to meet separation requirements if there are any.

Sorry for the long-windedness, but I am sure that there are some experiences here that I would like to tap into. Thanks.

 

[WVBill]

Bill:

I just did almost exactly the same as you. My pole barn is 120' from the house. I ran three #4 THHW conductors and a #6 THHW ground in 1" PVC conduit from a 60 amp breaker in the main panel in the house to a main breaker panel in the barn. I used a 100A MB panel so I could have a main cut-off switch at the barn. I won't go into the details of the grounding/bonding unless you ask.

I ran a 3/4" PVC water pipe (I should have used black poly) and an underground rated phone line in the same ditch. The water line terminates outside the barn.

I didn't run and don't know about running propane. If I were going to run propane out there, I'd have the propane company do it. I don't mess with gas.

My water line is not below the freeze line so I know I'll need to blow it out with compressed air come winter.

 

[cowboydoc]

Bill,
I did pretty much the same thing. However, here you have to be four foot to be below frost. I would think in Michigan it would be about the same. Anyway I ran my electric and water in the same trench. I put the water in at four foot covered it up to 2 foot and then ran my electrical down. I ran 10 gauge for my wire and 1" for my water. The other thing is make sure and draw pictures, put in stakes, something so that you know exactly where your lines are. I've had to dig mine up a couple times for repairs in the last few years and it sure is nice to know exactly where to dig.

 

[skent]

I also ran 3 #4's and a # 6 in 1" conduit. Man was it a tight fit. Sorry I didn't run 1.5" and add a 12-3w/ground in order to control a flood light on the polebarn from the house. (I ended up adding a remote controlled floodlight that operates off my garage door opener aux. button)

Also consider running a direct bury PAIR of phone lines (one for now-one for future) and even a coax (later on a TV or computer feed). The cable is cheap, the equipment to bury is not.

This fall I plan on installing an Outdoor Furnice behind the pool. (Burried pipes/electric and control lines) Will be putting many extras in that ditch also.



Steve

 

[Bill_in_MI]

Thanks for the feedback.

WV Bill: I had not considered the electrical pvc condit and individual wire pulling. Is there an advantage over direct burial cable or is it a code issue there? I'll be down a minimum of 18 inches. Is black poly suitable for continuous line pressure? I use it for my lawn irrigation, but only after the valves. Use pvc up to the valves. I, too, thought about a shallow pipe run which I would blow out (same time as the sprinkling lines) each fall. Then, figured for a little extra digging (pretty easy in these parts) and drilling through the concrete wall I could go year round.

Richard: You are probably right about the 4 ft depth. Also, good suggestion on the photos. I think I could take a quick trip up on the roof and get a good plan view that would allow me to zero in...but...your experience in needing to dig up for repairs worries me a bit. I would hope that would not result for a long time, and only then in a very unusual circumstance. Can you explain more about your repair situation?

Thanks again.

 

[Bill_in_MI]

Steve,
Same question as I asked WV Bill re conduit. Why versus dirct burial UF cable? And yeah, you've got me thinking about the extra cable to control a light and the communications stuff. Good suggestions. TV and computer in the barn? Kind of hard for me to foresee right now. Do you get kicked out of the house or just looking for a retreat ? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[GlueGuy]

Bill,

How much current in that sub-panel? I don't have my reference, but I bet 6AWG wire over a 100' & buried is only good for around 50 amps. We have 2AWG over about the same distance for 100 amps. We put this in 2.5" plastic conduit, with steel for the up/down transitions.

Out here, there is a code issue with water & electricity in the same trench. You can do it, but there is a separation issue.

We ran our propane about 140'. I dug the trench, and the propane company installed the pipe. It's all one piece of plastic with a copper wire wound around it. The end points (tank & regulator at the house) are steel. The wire gets terminated at each end. If the want to find it, they just attach a signal to one end or the other, and use a detector to find it.

The GlueGuy

 

[cowboydoc]

Bill,
The repairs that I had to make were 1. Somehow there was a nick in the wire and I was not getting a full current to the barn. I knew exactly where it was because I had seen it when I buried it. I put one of those waterproof connectors on it but when I dug it up sure enough it was full of water and there was my power drain. The second one was not really a repair so to speak but I wanted to put in another water hydrant in my barn. I couldn't for the life of me remember where I had buried that line. I finally found it after digging five holes. Now I have pics of where the lines are and I have them marked with stakes that I drove into the ground. Also on the propane or natural gas issue I just called the company I buy from and they came out and trenched my line, put in the pipe and hooked it all up for nothing. The company I use is Ameri gas.

 

[Bill_in_MI]

GlueGuy,
I am only looking for 30 to 40 amps. Going up in wire gage only to minimize the voltage drop. I am pretty sure I can use the same trench for the water and electrical with a minimum of 18 inches depth on the electrical and a 12 in separation from the water. I need to very, though. The gas line sounds interesting with the wound wire...have not seen that around here. I was CA all of the week before last...including the SF Bay area (your profile) Thanks for the info.

 

[Bill_in_MI]

Richard,

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Also on the propane or natural gas issue I just called the company I buy from and they came out and trenched my line, put in the pipe and hooked it all up for nothing.

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I could live with that! I'll check with a local company here...just seems a shame to have two trenches dug when there is one big one available. Thanks.

 

[Bird]

Bill, most propane companies used copper lines and may be going to some form of plastic now. I used to do gas leakage surveys for natural gas companies and the pipe used has changed over the years. I think all the old wooden pipe (Bois 'd Arc) is gone now, but I found cast iron pipe, black pipe, galvanized pipe, coated pipe, copper (which ain't recommended for natural gas anymore), etc. And now they're all going to the yellow "plastic" pipe. With the metal pipes, you could connect a sending unit and trace exactly where the pipe was. Now with the plastic pipe, that doesn't work, so I think all the gas companies are learning to wrap it with a "trace" wire so you can find it later.

Bird

 

[PBMAX]

Bill,I don't know what you do or don't know so I'll just keep it simple.If you are only looking for 30-40 at a 100ft you should be fine especialy if you are running Copper wire,assuming you are.(for ex. 10 gauge(COPPER) wire is rated for 100 ft at 30 amps in conduit.I would consider a 60 or 100 amp panel my self for future use.Plus like some one mentioned the disconnect is also nice at times.Course you can feed in to a 2 pole breaker instead of the top luggs and use it as a disconnect.But some places the inspectors frown on that.Plus it uses up a breaker.Good luck.Me I'm still trying to figure out the cheapest wat to dig through rock.Living on a mountain give you a great view but the rock sure is shallow. I put my barn on hold mostly for this reason.The soil is any were from 8" to 4' deep in any give direction.Gonna have to rent one of those monster dithc witch's

Lil' Paul
Proud new owner of TC21D
Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[DaveM]

Bill- I had a propane co. run about 125' of propane pipe (black PVC looking) last fall. They dug the trench (rock city!) and ran a ribbon of metal tape on top of the pipe from the tank to the house before back filling. They would use a metal detector to find it again in the future.

Dave

 

[RobS]

Bill, I'll be living with Propane when we join you in Michigan next year (hopefully). Could you have a second propane tank for the barn and not have to run that off the house?

 

[Bill_in_MI]

Bird, Thanks for that info. Makes sense to me. Speaking of tracing or finding things. I have some plastic corregated drain pipes which carry eaves trough runoff from the house down to the pond. I know generally where they are, but they were installed years ago (did not have Richard's advice then!) and landscaped over. I believe the lawn irrigation pipe -pulling kid crushed one (years ago, now) cause it won't drain anymore...just fills and overflows. I am guessing the blockage is about 40 to 50 feet out into the line. My question: Is there a way for me to pinpoint the trouble area so I can do a minimally invasive surgical procedure? Shove some kind of signal generating device used with a sensor? I think the drain is only several inches down. And, I think the line is a reasonably straight shot from the entry point of the downspout. There is at least one branch that joins it however...somewhere out there. Appreciate any ideas, but especially any cheap ideas.

 

[GlueGuy]

Bill,

You might want to run an electrician's snake down the hole until it won't go anymore, then use a tracer to figure out where it stops. My snake is about 100' long, so that would pprobably do the trick.

The GlueGuy

 

[GlueGuy]

Richard,

Amerigas is the same company that sells us our propane. They have been nice people. All of the homeowners in this area have gone together to form a "propane users group". In exchange for getting "scheduled delivery" of propane, Amerigas gives us a substantial discount on the cost of propane; they key the price to wholesale cost (a published figure) plus a fixed markup. This last winter, it was saving us almost 50 cents per gallon.

The GlueGuy

 

[Bird]

Bill, I don't know of any way to solve that problem other than what GlueGuy has already said.

Bird

 

[cowboydoc]

Bill,
Actually I had the same problem awhile back. I actually probably got a little lucky too. Anyway what I did was after it had rained really hard I went out with a rod and started poking in the ground along where I knew the pipe was. I just kept going along hitting the pipe, rather drain tile. I eventually got to a point where the ground was really soft and dug it up and there was my problem.

 

[Tdog]

Bill,

My pole barn is about the same distance from the house as yours. I buried a 10 gage wire for electricity & ran a one inch pvc pipe for water. I also ran a 2nd electric line in order to connect the barn lights [the outside flood lights, anyway] to a three-way switch. That way,we don't have to walk out in darkness on early winter mornings. Also ran a phone line & that's sure come in handy. I'm in the gulf south area so my water line is not very deep. I chose to run the water on one side, & the electric on the other side of my drive up to the barn apron. As long as I had the trench open, I also ran a coaxial cable so that we could use a camcorder for watching my wife's horse if she were ever pregnant or ill - - so far, I haven't even tested it to see if it works, but there's no reason it shouldn't.