Pole Barn advice

[Gizmo2]

Does anyone have a post foundation plan for how they connected their post to the concrete footing? I am working on my post footings now and don't want my post buried in the ground for a couple reasons. One is post rot and the other is the cost of the post themselves. I can get by with 12' post by sitting them on the top of the footing at grade where it would take 14 maybe 16 footers by going in on top of a 8 or 10 inch footing buried in the soil. It may not be much savings maybe $25 or $30 bucks a post but every buck I can save leaves me more bucks to spend on my concrete pad once the roof is up.

I don't want to hyjack the OP's post so maybe I'll just start another thread but any help would be helpful.

More money but we are going with the Perma Column. They also have post anchors used for attaching a post to concrete. Perma-Column | Permanent Foundation Systems

 

[grsthegreat]

id insulate the walls if i were you.... i never thought i needed it here myself, but in the intervening 10 years since the shop was built, ive now moved a plasma cutter, box brake and roller , plus assorted other tools in there. i had to add a 125,000 BTU gas furnace so i can use the shop in the winter. alot of heat passes thru those walls. So now im stuck with having to haul out all of my crap and shelves, and insulate the walls. much more work now then if i did it 10 years ago.

just my 2 cents worts

 

[mx842]

More money but we are going with the Perma Column. They also have post anchors used for attaching a post to concrete. Perma-Column | Permanent Foundation Systems

I looked at that system but it's a little too rich for this old country boy. I think I have decided to go with the angle brackets I am working on. As I said in another thread it's going to be bad weather wise here for the next couple days so I can work inside my shop and make up enough brackets to do all my post. I cut enough angle iron yesterday to make enough to put two on each post and I have enough plate to cut out enough 3" strips 8 or 10 inches long to weld on to the angles where I can drill a hole through to run a through bolt through. I already drilled a half inch hole on one side and I put 6 or 7 staggered 3/16 holes in the other for nail holes where I can nail teco nails into the bottom of the post. they shouldn't split the post too bad and will hold it in place until I can drill the large bolt hole to make it a permanent secure hold down system that will hopefully make any inspector that happened to show up at any time in the future.

 

[Birdhunter1]

1. Definitely will consider this.
2. The hydrant will be inside, however it isn't far at all from the house, and it is below the septic system. I don't think a bathroom would be worth the extra hassle.
3. This is part of the plan

You would be surprised how nice that bathroom in he shop is regardless of how close it is to your house. working outside.. muddy boots.. gotta go and I mean now and don't think you can bend over to remove your boots... run in the shop tracking mud anywhere, cleanup is so easy. Anyway there is my sales pitch on it.

To mount the post to the top of the concrete. Lt me go back here and say I do not simply have a 1' wall on top of the concrete floor, there is a footing under the wall and the wall is 2' tall, the floor is just 1' below the wall.

I built my own brackets out of 4" flatstock 1/4" thick. I can send you pictures of them but basicly I took a piece flat and welded two uprights on the sides of where the posts are. 3/4" holes in the uprights to allow a 5/8" bolt, 3/4" holes in the bottom plate to allow for 1/2" threaded rod epoxied into the concrete.
I do not know the epoxy that was used. I have a good friend that is a large concrete contractor that did the work (I just assisted) and he said the epoxy he used surpasses DOT and Corps of Engineers specs.

I built the brackets because I could not find what I wanted for sale, the week after I built mine I found them for sale in my local lumberyard that I had walked by them a dozen times that week probably.

I'll get pictures of my brackets up in the next day or two.

 

[boggen]

Does anyone have a post foundation plan for how they connected their post to the concrete footing? I am working on my post footings now and don't want my post buried in the ground for a couple reasons. One is post rot and the other is the cost of the post themselves. I can get by with 12' post by sitting them on the top of the footing at grade where it would take 14 maybe 16 footers by going in on top of a 8 or 10 inch footing buried in the soil. It may not be much savings maybe $25 or $30 bucks a post but every buck I can save leaves me more bucks to spend on my concrete pad once the roof is up.

I don't want to hyjack the OP's post so maybe I'll just start another thread but any help would be helpful.

I looked at that system but it's a little too rich for this old country boy. I think I have decided to go with the angle brackets I am working on. As I said in another thread it's going to be bad weather wise here for the next couple days so I can work inside my shop and make up enough brackets to do all my post. I cut enough angle iron yesterday to make enough to put two on each post and I have enough plate to cut out enough 3" strips 8 or 10 inches long to weld on to the angles where I can drill a hole through to run a through bolt through. I already drilled a half inch hole on one side and I put 6 or 7 staggered 3/16 holes in the other for nail holes where I can nail teco nails into the bottom of the post. they shouldn't split the post too bad and will hold it in place until I can drill the large bolt hole to make it a permanent secure hold down system that will hopefully make any inspector that happened to show up at any time in the future.

be carefull there. 8" to 10" depth footing in the ground could lead to bad things.

if pouring concrete to set the posts on. you need to make sure you dig down past your frost depth line. for me here in central Illinois, that is 4 to 4.5 feet depth. frost depth varies through out the US. you can by cheap sono tubes. or rather post forms. they look like cardboard. to help save on amount of concrete used. vs just digging a hole and filling it up. the sono tubes for posts will look kinda like a cone. if you are using solid posts. you can stick a piece of rebar into the top of the concrete (still half way wet that is) and then drill hole through bottom of posts.

putting rebar in while concrete is wet can be a pain lining up posts when it comes to that time. it works, but you can use a masonary bit (concrete drill bit) and a good hammer drill. to drill holes into the top of the concrete, for the rebar. doing this allows you to take your time setting up strings and getting everything level. and know exactly were to drill holes. and allows you to get everything more square and level. some times it is better to rent a concrete drill from a local machine rental place. so you are not fighting some small size drill you might already have to drill the holes.

if you go bare posts all the way into the ground. bottom of post still needs to go down to atleast the frost line level for your area. if ya don't then more than likely after a few years. you may notice a weave going on with your roof as posts rises up and down as the ground moves.

i have seen were folks have taken a post hole digger (2 man post hole digger) or one that hooks up to a tractor, skidsteer or back hoe. drill the holes they needed. then drilled 2 holes clear through bottom of posts. and then stuck rebar through. holes. dumped some concrete down into the hole first put in the post, then filled hole rest the way up with concrete. the rebar helps hold the post to the concrete so the post won't try and some how move up and out of the concrete

 

[mx842]

be carefull there. 8" to 10" depth footing in the ground could lead to bad things.

if pouring concrete to set the posts on. you need to make sure you dig down past your frost depth line. for me here in central Illinois, that is 4 to 4.5 feet depth. frost depth varies through out the US. you can by cheap sono tubes. or rather post forms. they look like cardboard. to help save on amount of concrete used. vs just digging a hole and filling it up. the sono tubes for posts will look kinda like a cone. if you are using solid posts. you can stick a piece of rebar into the top of the concrete (still half way wet that is) and then drill hole through bottom of posts.

putting rebar in while concrete is wet can be a pain lining up posts when it comes to that time. it works, but you can use a masonary bit (concrete drill bit) and a good hammer drill. to drill holes into the top of the concrete, for the rebar. doing this allows you to take your time setting up strings and getting everything level. and know exactly were to drill holes. and allows you to get everything more square and level. some times it is better to rent a concrete drill from a local machine rental place. so you are not fighting some small size drill you might already have to drill the holes.

if you go bare posts all the way into the ground. bottom of post still needs to go down to atleast the frost line level for your area. if ya don't then more than likely after a few years. you may notice a weave going on with your roof as posts rises up and down as the ground moves.

i have seen were folks have taken a post hole digger (2 man post hole digger) or one that hooks up to a tractor, skidsteer or back hoe. drill the holes they needed. then drilled 2 holes clear through bottom of posts. and then stuck rebar through. holes. dumped some concrete down into the hole first put in the post, then filled hole rest the way up with concrete. the rebar helps hold the post to the concrete so the post won't try and some how move up and out of the concrete

Again, my footing has 8 to 10" of concrete in it and here we only need to go to 18" and if the soil is good and solid at that point that is as deep as we need to go. There is one place that I had to do a little fill so that one will be deeper but for the most part the whole pad was in a cut zone. I still need to come up from the top of the footing to grade and in most places that is from between 4 to 10" and for that I will use the cardboard round forms and rebar. To hold the post brackets I now plan on putting anchor bolts into the concrete once I come up with some kind of jig to use as a guide.

I don't have the luxury of a tractor with an hole digger so all my holes are being dug by yours truly. The dirt right now is in really good condition for digging and my timing of the hole digging was purposely aimed at this time of the year. Two months from now I would need dynamite to blast a hole in that clay dirt. I also had to wait to pull out all the trees in the build site, not to wet not too dry. Yep you guessed it....no bull dozer either, just me and my old 96 ford bronco did the job and nicely I might add. I didn't have problems with but two trees out of the 28 I had to pull out. One a great big oak and the other was a huge Holly tree I didn't think I was going to get that thing out but I kept digging and yanking and it finally gave up. The hardest part was getting the stumps out of the ground once pulled over and then over to the burn pile and in some kind of position where I can have a weenie roast one day once this wind quits blowing so badly.

 

[Birdhunter1]

Mx and AJE, these are the brackets I fabbed. This oneI ran short on flat stock (it was 5"wide by 1/4" thick so I welded 2"x1/4" angle on the sides for ears to bolt to the concrete. The bolts in concrete are threaded rod that is epoxied in, the bolt through the post is a 5/8" post. For what it's worth unless you have the bigger drill bits and a big drill or drill press big enough to make these I'd just buy them.

On a building down the road similar in size to mine the contractor took a 6" wall girter and cut it into 5" pieces, expansion bolted it to the concrete and lagged it to the posts. Seemed like an easy and logical idea to me.

 

[SpringHollow]

I personally never like to encase wood (PT or not) in concrete. That creates a pretty bad environment for the wood.

Ken

 

[mx842]

Mx and AJE, these are the brackets I fabbed. This oneI ran short on flat stock (it was 5"wide by 1/4" thick so I welded 2"x1/4" angle on the sides for ears to bolt to the concrete. The bolts in concrete are threaded rod that is epoxied in, the bolt through the post is a 5/8" post. For what it's worth unless you have the bigger drill bits and a big drill or drill press big enough to make these I'd just buy them.

On a building down the road similar in size to mine the contractor took a 6" wall girter and cut it into 5" pieces, expansion bolted it to the concrete and lagged it to the posts. Seemed like an easy and logical idea to me.

Cool...they look good. That is pretty much the same plan as I am working on but I am doing it with the medal stock supply I have on hand. Actually doing it that way was a little harder but some times you gotta do what you gotta do. I have a mill and a small lathe so the holes were no problem I even drilled 7) 3/16 nail holes in the angle on the upright side to use as nailers to hold the post upright in place while I can place my braces to plum the post. You have to think like that when you are working by yourself on projects like this. The spare holes will also act as drain holes in case water ever filled up the bracket somehow. When I am done with the brackets I'll post some pics if I can figure out how to do it.

You say you can't remember what kind of sealer that was you used for the anchor bolts? Drilling holes and putting in lead anchors would probably be quicker and easier that trying to figure out the exact location of where to place the regular old anchor bolts in the wet cement and they actually match up with the bolt holes I drilled in the plate.

Thanks for your help and even though our ideas were pretty much the same it really helps to ease my mind knowing someone else did roughly the same thing and it actually worked out ok. Once I get my post anchor problem solved I can go to the next stage of my build. My trolly lift that will extend from the center of my big 12' sliding door all the way to the back of the building. I want to do this without a center support. I have a 1 1/2 ton electric chainfall on a roller frame that I use to pick parts off trucks and carry them to the back of the shop to where my small fab shop and powder coat ovens will be. I probably wont ever use the chainfall to it's capacity most of the stuff I do is less than 500 lbs and if I did ever need to unload something like a big machine like a mill or large lathe I can unload it at the door and roll it into place. The problem will be the 40' span with no support in the center and then the next problem I have is that my 10" I beams are only 20' and that means I will have to connect two together to reach the span but I think I have a plan worked out that will work. I have to build this structure before I start the rest of the building because this part will be on its own footing and not part of the building structure itself. My plan is to build this structure and test it to see if I can wheel a 1000 lb weight from one end to another with no center support without failure and if I can successfully do this without a failure then I will go forward with the rest of the building. Once the truss system is in I can then go in and put in a center support on top of the beam and use a turn buckle type system and anchor it back to each end of the beam somewhat like they do in suspension bridge construction for added support and safety.

I have already had several internet experts say I'm crazy for thinking this will ever work and will fall in a pile before a 200 lb load ever gets anywhere close to the center of the beam on my test run. I don't know maybe they are right but I'm hard headed and have to see for myself if this is true. All I have to go on is what I took out of my old building and if that worked for all those years this should work like a charm.......I hope! If it fails all I have lost is a little time and effort I got the beams for nothing that were leftover from a job they did at my sons plant he works at. hopefully I can get started on this part sometime this weekend and I'll let you know what happens.

 

[mx842]

I personally never like to encase wood (PT or not) in concrete. That creates a pretty bad environment for the wood.

Ken

That is kinda my thinking as well. I know, I know it may be overkill and I know thousands of pole barns have been built and do just fine with the post sitting on the concrete footing with wood blocks nailed to them at the bottom then back filled with dirt, mud, rock, concrete, or what ever else that can be found. I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to stuff like this. I guess it's the mechanic blood in me that is always looking for another way to do things with hopes I can make things a little better.....for me that is.

 

[SpringHollow]

A 40' span is huge. You might consider beefing up the trusses and suspending a beam in the middle, doing either a 20' span covering half the barn or using 3 rollers and I-beams to support a 40' beam. I did a 22' span rolling gantry crane - I had to gusset and weld on 4' to my 20' long 10" deep I-beams. I have lifted 3000 lbs or so in the middle of that span. I would have preferred stronger I-beams but I used what i had gotten cheap.

My calculations showed 4000 lbs in the middle would deflect my I-beams beam by 3/4". The same beams would deflect by over 1" with 1000 lbs in the middle of a 40 foot span. If i were using 20' beams for that, i would be tempted to put the full 20' length in the middle and gusset/weld 10' onto each end where the stresses are less.

Ken

 

[mx842]

A 40' span is huge. You might consider beefing up the trusses and suspending a beam in the middle, doing either a 20' span covering half the barn or using 3 rollers and I-beams to support a 40' beam. I did a 22' span rolling gantry crane - I had to gusset and weld on 4' to my 20' long 10" deep I-beams. I have lifted 3000 lbs or so in the middle of that span. I would have preferred stronger I-beams but I used what i had gotten cheap.

My calculations showed 4000 lbs in the middle would deflect my I-beams beam by 3/4". The same beams would deflect by over 1" with 1000 lbs in the middle of a 40 foot span. If i were using 20' beams for that, i would be tempted to put the full 20' length in the middle and gusset/weld 10' onto each end where the stresses are less.

Ken

A permanent support beam in the middle is out of the question because of space and also it would prohibit me railing my parts all the way through. I could however use one or two of those adjustable steel post I saw at Lowes the other day. They are 4" round post with a big threaded rod in the center welded to foot plates on both ends where you can adjust it to what ever height you need. I was thinking this would be a good alternative method if I ever needed to haul something, say like over 500 lbs from one end to another. I might have to have 2 of them, one to put in place somewhere near the middle and once the load gets to that point place the other one behind the load and continue on. Also I was thinking about maybe a rolling cart I could somewhat support some of the load on as it rolls through. One thing to keep in mind is that this is not the main purpose of the rail. It is more or less mainly used to just lift parts or hold in place parts while I weld or measure as I work on my many projects. You could call it an extra hand if you like. In my old shop where the hoist used to live it was mainly used to lift the ends of long pieces of stock we were cutting off with the band saw, chop saw, or plasma cutter. I have bar stock rollers but you can never get them adjusted just right for some material and are a real pain sometimes when you are working by yourself.

I do like the thought of the 20' section in the middle like you suggested. I had not considered that but now that you mentioned it it makes a lot of sense and I have to cut two pieces anyway so one or two more cuts wont hurt. Would you solid weld the connections? I was thinking that would not be the best Idea because of the difference in stress factors between the actual welds and the beam itself. I was thinking about welding a thick piece of flat plate on the top and bottom the same width as the beam. I have a piece of 1 1/4" thick plate I was going to cut to fit for this and I think I have more than enough to do two splices. In the middle I was going to clamp the beam between two pieces of 1/2" plate the same width as the beam and thru bolt them with 1/2" bolts probably at least 4 maybe 6 on each side of the splice.

I was talking to an old guy about this an he said not to solid weld the connection and although he seemed to know what he was talking about everybody has their own opinions and is the reason I asked this here because I want to find the opinions that work best for what I have on the work bench. I'm not an iron worker more like a jack of all trades and sometimes that can get you into trouble.:laughing: I am also not a structural engineer and I really suck at math and is the reason like to get different opinions from as many people as I can.

Do you know how much more support if any adding a riser on top at the middle of the section and bracing it back to both ends of the beam where they sit on the headers will provide. It seems to me this would greatly improve the strength of the overall system provided I build it out of the proper material. I realize this would have to be added after the truss system has been put in place and could be bolted or welded in place once the roof is on.

Sorry again OP for the post hyjack but thank you so much for asking your question.

 

[dusty3030]

FWIW we built a 40x80 steel building, 14' at the eaves this past August.
20x40 are fully enlclosed, insulated, with a 10x10 roll up door and one walk door. The other 60x40 has a backwall but no front wall or side wall. That area is all 6" of crushed limestone gravel.
We had to have a meter moved and went ahead and buried all the electrical to the new building as well as to an older steel building on the property.
We had the road extended to the new building.
We hired out everything but demolition of two buildings that were in the way.
Total cost was $37,000. We hired a local contractor to build the building and his quote was the best. We hired the electrician we wanted. It was turn key and they cleaned up and put us in business.
The building we got came from the same place that quoted us almost $3 a square foot more than the local contractor.
We spent a lot of hours getting quotes and meeting with contractors that paid off for us in money and in satisfaction with the project.

Also, it doesn't add much of anything to the cost to build it taller. It's worth it to go taller than you anticipate. I can stack round bales three high and still have plenty of clearance.

 

[SpringHollow]

I have also been told skip welding is better, that it is less likely to crack at the weld.

If you built a rolling bridge crane like mine, you could still cover the whole barn with 3 beams. My cross beam is suspended below the I-beams by trolleys (there are lots of ways that attachment can be done). The I-beams are suspended from reinforced trusses.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/152193-gantry-barn.html

Ken

 

[AJE]

Just an update... paperwork on 30x48x10 building is signed, just waiting on the yard to dry up a bit. I got the price locked in before it can go up too much though!

I'll have a lot of work to do once it's up, because I'm doing everything else myself. I've got to dig a trench and run a water line, electricity, and whatever else I need (only want to dig once!). Any suggestions? I want an extra electric line from the house specifically to switch exterior lights on or off from the house, and I was thinking maybe a cable TV line or something as well. Anything else?

 

[Pixguy]

Any suggestions? I want an extra electric line from the house specifically to switch exterior lights on or off from the house, and I was thinking maybe a cable TV line or something as well. Anything else?

I personally would run Cat5 for phone and or internet, or at least an extra conduit chase where you can run what you need years from now. :2cents:

 

[fowllife]

Conduit and water lines are cheap, run some extra's. I would run a 2" for the electriacl service to the barn (or bigger depending on how many amp sevice) a pair of 3/4" or 1" water line, and several 3/4" or 1" conduits. Conduit is so cheap in relation to digging another trench down the road. Think about what you may want out there, then add a couple more.

 

[AJE]

I personally would run Cat5 for phone and or internet, or at least an extra conduit chase where you can run what you need years from now. :2cents:

Cat5 is a good idea, as is a phone line (we have old phone lines, I'm not sure we could even run a phone line on Cat 5)

 

[grsthegreat]

Cat5 is a good idea, as is a phone line (we have old phone lines, I'm not sure we could even run a phone line on Cat 5)

sure, you can always run a phone line on a cat5

i ran phone and cat5 to all my outbuildings. i have used the phone in all of them (a speakerphone with pager feature) and have used the cat5 for internet and ethernet in my shop.

cheap and easy to do while the trench is open.

i also always lay extra, empty conduits

the real odd thing is...and most people dont know this, cat 5 wire has 4 pairs of wires (8 total wires) for internet use. ONLY 2 of these wires (1 pair) is used. the rest are for future use. waste of wire hehe

 

[wedge40]

sure, you can always run a phone line on a cat5

i ran phone and cat5 to all my outbuildings. i have used the phone in all of them (a speakerphone with pager feature) and have used the cat5 for internet and ethernet in my shop.

cheap and easy to do while the trench is open.

i also always lay extra, empty conduits

the real odd thing is...and most people dont know this, cat 5 wire has 4 pairs of wires (8 total wires) for internet use. ONLY 2 of these wires (1 pair) is used. the rest are for future use. waste of wire hehe

Which two?