Ok whats wrong with this pic

[jake98]

'the merchant' has a pretty good paper trail here. I'd think Visa/MC would thank him for keeping them out of this mess.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I was trying to avoid being blunt, but here is the rule from MasterCard.

http://www.merchantservice.com/university/resource/rules/MERC-Entire_Manual.pdf

5.6.1 Honor All Cards
A Merchant must honor all valid Cards without discrimination when properly presented for payment. A Merchant must maintain a policy that does not discriminate among customers seeking to make purchases with a Card. A Merchant that does not deal with the public at large (for example, a private club) is considered to comply with this rule if it honors all valid and properly presented Cards of Cardholders that have purchasing privileges with the Merchant.

Visa's rule:

http://www.merchantservice.com/university/resource/rules/rules_for_visa_merchants.pdf

2. Honor the Choice
If the customer indicates that he or she wants to pay with a Visa card, the merchant must make sure that choice is honored. A merchant is allowed to steer the customer to other forms of payment, but cannot confuse or mislead the customer or omit important information in the process. In other words, the choice is ultimately the customer's. A transaction can only be processed as something other than Visa if the customer has selected another form of payment. However, if a customer chooses Visa, it must be processed as a Visa transaction.

I do not think these rules are talking about this case or apply to this case if you will read them in detail. He is not trying to force the customer to use another 'brand' of card or trying to force a cash sell to beat the CC fee or because of his race, ect, etc.

The customer is abusive and threating.

 

[Robb71]

Without discrimination in this instance means if you take plastic from anyone you take it from everyone. If the card is valid and the charge approved, a merchant who refuses to accept it as payment is in violation of the agreement he signed.
I don't like it but that is the way it is.

The dealer in this seems to be a man of character and integrity, so it is solely up to Mr. Smith how he proceeds.
I would hate to see him get in trouble and lose his ability to accept MC/Visa which would probably cost his business more in the long run than if the owner scammed the credit card.

I really wish it was different, but it is what it is.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Without discrimination in this instance means if you take plastic from anyone you take it from everyone. If the card is valid and the charge approved, a merchant who refuses to accept it as payment is in violation of the agreement he signed.
I don't like it but that is the way it is.

The dealer in this seems to be a man of character and integrity, so it is solely up to Mr. Smith how he proceeds.
I would hate to see him get in trouble and lose his ability to accept MC/Visa which would probably cost his business more in the long run than if the owner scammed the credit card.

I really wish it was different, but it is what it is.

Are you really serious?

 

[tlbuser]

'Bota burgers and Dogs hot out of the bucket...beer cold in the snow- ahhh nothing better (and yes, i'm sure this voided the bucket warranty- but that is ok. I hear there is a dealer in TX that has an in with the manufacturer rep)

Love the pic. north country guys and cabin fever seems to make for some awful creative things.

 

[Mike Costello]

Without discrimination in this instance means if you take plastic from anyone you take it from everyone. If the card is valid and the charge approved, a merchant who refuses to accept it as payment is in violation of the agreement he signed.
I don't like it but that is the way it is.

The dealer in this seems to be a man of character and integrity, so it is solely up to Mr. Smith how he proceeds.
I would hate to see him get in trouble and lose his ability to accept MC/Visa which would probably cost his business more in the long run than if the owner scammed the credit card.

I really wish it was different, but it is what it is.

A very learned person once told me legal documents or even a lowly "No Trespassing" sign were only as good as a smart lawyer. He told me this in my younger years when I was just starting out as a business owner. What he was essentially saying was "Protect yourself" and stand by your principles.
As I stated in an earlier post, I faced issues exactly like this many times because of the nature of my business which was automotive services. No credit card company or bank EVER challenged me over my refusal to take a credit card or a check. Even they knew smart lawyers are expensive. Mike.

 

[CBW1999]

I would think that the CARDHOLDER agreement would have a section about the consumer intentionally defrauding the merchant. A call to the company, by the merchant might be helpful to run the scenario by them and ask for guidance.

The other issue is "theft of services" or "passing a false token". In vermont, essentially- if you accept product or services and ntentionally imake attempt to avoid payment, it is a crime. If you use a check or credit card knowing that you do not have the funds or, intent to prevent payment once tendered, it is a crime.

In this case, the index of suspicion is high- that the consumer does not want to pay. It is the consumers right to dispute this before paying.

Another option for the merchant. Have the consumer make a cash advance on his card. That way, the date/time/amount is documented with the CC company and it will match the invoice amount. It would be documented that way but- the merchant gets his money up front.

 

[dourobob]

. . . he's mad cuz he called today and wanted to pay by cc (knowing I already told him we couldnt do that) over the phone and with a cc we dont accept.

Sorry, I missed the part about a CC you don't accept. Makes it pretty easy - CASH is the answer.

Like many, I applaud jlsmith for how he is handling this and will "pop a top" when I hear it is over :thumbsup:

Bob

 

[Robb71]

Are you really serious?

I could be snarky back, but the words in the merchant agreement are very clear. I'm sorry you're are having trouble following what I'm saying, but yes when you as a merchant sign up to accept credit cards you agree to the terms set forth by the company.

Again, the terms a VERY clear, if a valid credit card is presented, refusing to accept it is not allowed buy the terms in the merchant agreement. And if you'll read the links I provided you will find there can be consequences for refusing to honor a valid card.

Yes I am serious, if the customer knows the rules, he can make a legitimate complaint to the credit card company. And if he has proof, the credit card company could act on it.

Not saying I agree with it I'm just presenting the facts.

Because this type of customer is exactly the type that will go out of their way to make life miserable for an honest guy like Mr Smith, I'd like him to make sure he is aware of a potential problem.

 

[Robb71]

A very learned person once told me legal documents or even a lowly "No Trespassing" sign were only as good as a smart lawyer. He told me this in my younger years when I was just starting out as a business owner. What he was essentially saying was "Protect yourself" and stand by your principles.
As I stated in an earlier post, I faced issues exactly like this many times because of the nature of my business which was automotive services. No credit card company or bank EVER challenged me over my refusal to take a credit card or a check. Even they knew smart lawyers are expensive. Mike.

I'm glad you never had any issues, but that does not mean the next guy who walks out on the ice doesn't get wet.

As to lawyers, the problem is the CC companies have lawyers on staff that write and review these agreements for any potential weakness. If there is a loophole in it the price to find will start in the neighborhood of $250.00 an hour and if you want a "good lawyer" you are probably looking at $500/hr.
That money will come out of Mr Smith's bottom line.

 

[Mike Costello]

I'm glad you never had any issues, but that does not mean the next guy who walks out on the ice doesn't get wet.

As to lawyers, the problem is the CC companies have lawyers on staff that write and review these agreements for any potential weakness. If there is a loophole in it the price to find will start in the neighborhood of $250.00 an hour and if you want a "good lawyer" you are probably looking at $500/hr.
That money will come out of Mr Smith's bottom line.

What ice? Expensive lawyers run both ways. The cc companies write off more expensive debt than a repair bill over a tractor every day. Couple that with bad publicity= no upside for them. Bottom line: Cash talks-BS walks.

 

[sixdogs]

Bottom line: Cash talks-BS walks.

I think we have a winner...

 

[CBW1999]

Regardless of the merchant or cardholder rules- method of payment was agreed upon as part of the repair/work order- wasn't it. That would be the contract that would hold up in court.

In that case, doesn't matter if he processes CC's or not, there is a valid contract specifying what payment would be made. So in the end, the merchant in this case would not be violating his terms.

That might not be a bad thing to include on invoicing- some type of section that specifies type of payment, to be used when appropriate.

 

[Robb71]

What ice? Expensive lawyers run both ways. The cc companies write off more expensive debt than a repair bill over a tractor every day. Couple that with bad publicity= no upside for them. Bottom line: Cash talks-BS walks.

The ice was an expression meaning just because you got away with it does not mean the next guy will. Sorry it went over your head.

Look, I'm tired of explaining what a group of words means to couple of people who do not understand and refuse to open their minds.

Bottom line is that there exists a merchant agreement that the dealer signed, and I linked a copy of it or a substantially similar version in my earlier post.

If there is a loophole that would be awesome, I hope Mr Smith can find it, because I have the same opinion of the tractor's owner as everyone else in the thread.
If there is not a loophole I just want him to be aware of it because he seems like a really stand up guy and I would want my neighbor or friend to warn me if I was about to do something that could cause a problem.

If you can show me where I have stated a factual error or where the merchant agreement allows the dealer to refuse to accept a valid card for payment I have an open mind, otherwise let us just agree to disagree.

Fair enough?

 

[Robb71]

Regardless of the merchant or cardholder rules- method of payment was agreed upon as part of the repair/work order- wasn't it. That would be the contract that would hold up in court.

In that case, doesn't matter if he processes CC's or not, there is a valid contract specifying what payment would be made. So in the end, the merchant in this case would not be violating his terms.

That might not be a bad thing to include on invoicing- some type of section that specifies type of payment, to be used when appropriate.

I do not believe there is information one way or the other in the thread if the form of payment was agreed to before work began.
Read Mr Smiths posts #169 and 196.

You can't disregard the merchant rules because you violated them before work began, you either take plastic or you don't.

It really is black and white.
There just isn't any gray area, but like I told the last guy if you can show me a fact I am open minded.

 

[blueriver]

I do not believe there is information one way or the other in the thread if the form of payment was agreed to before work began.
Read Mr Smiths posts #169 and 196.

You can't disregard the merchant rules because you violated them before work began, you either take plastic or you don't.

It really is black and white.
There just isn't any gray area, but like I told the last guy if you can show me a fact I am open minded.

JL Smith somewhere told the customer cash ... thats black and white! I called my processing company today. Maybe it varies from CC processing company ... Mine told me I have the right to decide weather to accept any card at any time and does not put me in breach of my merchant agreement, however I may lose the sale if the customer does not have cash.

I was also told even though I have the MC, Visa, Discover logo's displayed I can express cash as my preferred choice of payment at the time during the purchase... Thats the way my company explained it to me.

 

[Robb71]

JL Smith somewhere told the customer cash ... thats black and white! I called my processing company today. Maybe it varies from CC processing company ... Mine told me I have the right to decide weather to accept any card at any time and does not put me in breach of my merchant agreement, however I may lose the sale if the customer does not have cash.

I was also told even though I have the MC, Visa, Discover logo's displayed I can express cash as my preferred choice of payment at the time during the purchase... Thats the way my company explained it to me.

Who do you use to process your credit transactions?

 

[kidr]

Didn't the op say that the customer wanted to use a cc that the op's company did not deal with? I thought I read that ,but then I'm blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.

 

[Just Bill]

It really does not matter what the Visa or Master Card agreements says.
If you try to pay with a cc that is not accepted you have to play by the sellers rules.
If the whole post is read the customer was informed cash only.

 

[Robb71]

I'll try again.

This is direct from the MasterCard company rules:

"A Merchant must honor all valid Cards without discrimination when properly presented for payment."

This is what Visa's rules say:
"If the customer indicates that he or she wants to pay with a Visa card, the merchant must make sure that choice is honored."

"In other words, the choice is ultimately the customer's."

"However, if a customer chooses Visa, it must be processed as a Visa transaction."

Folk's it's not even debatable what the words mean. "All" means all, and "the merchant must make sure that choice is honored" means what it obviously means.

Any further discussion is just proof that half the population is below average intelligence. But like I said if you have facts, (not just what you want it to be) and you really want to share them, instead of hijacking this thread any more just send a private message.