Oil vs propane heat

[LouNY]

Yes, multiple sources are good it provides for backup and options.
I have oil fired boiler for main heat and hot water,
a coal insert in the fireplace that does the main load of heating much of the winter,
electric heat lamps and spot heaters in the bathrooms,
supplemental electric in the basement facing into the water pressure tank and softener and house plumbing on a 45 degree thermo-switch just in case.
Then a couple of propane infrared radiants just in case.

 

[Oaktree]

I still make 4 or 5 cords annually for the fireplace and for those days when it's -10 and windy. This old farmhouse was built to the exacting building codes of the 1830s, so despite a lot of remedial insulation it can need a lot of BTUs on nasty days.
The geothermal cost an obscene amount of money initially but has paid for itself and now pays dividends to me. A bonus is hot water and central air with what I consider a minimal increase in the electric bill to run the associated pumps and blowers.

My house is about the same age as yours, and it's surprisingly easy to heat. It has been insulated (well, as much as you can with plank construction), and we fixed the couple of places where drafts were getting in. The bathroom can get a little chilly for my wife's preference (it's fine for me)...it's on the opposite corner of the house from where the stove is. A small space heater takes care of it. We do have a couple fans to help circulation.

As far as the "exacting building codes of the 1830s" go, the biggest downside we have is that whoever built the house apparently didn't own either a level or a square. :laughing:

Curiously, what was the payback time on the geothermal? ISTM it would be decades (and it still doesn't work when the power is out). How does it deal with really cold weather where traditional heat pumps give up and switch to straight electric heat?
I live in northern N.H. where it rarely gets hot enough to need A/C.

 

[goeduck]

I also would like to know more about the geothermal, I assume in fishheadbobs case we talking about a ground loop on a heat pump? I plan quite a bit of excavation for a shop expansion and adding a loop at the same time makes sense. Ground temperatures around here are supposed to be relatively constant at ~59 DegF at only 6 feet down. I read that on the internet so I know it to be fact
:shocked:

 

[RoyKing]

Geothermal works get for the winter if you don't undersize your loop, use distilled water and antifreeze, very little maintenance if they put in a air removal tank. Pay back all depends on your energy cost, you can't beat wood from your own land, will keep you healthy gather cutting splitting it. If you've got access to natural gas first choice, I like oil and coal for second choice, if you need AC geothermal will pay off, easily get 25 years out of unit, loop should go 50 years.

 

[fishheadbob]

My house is about the same age as yours, and it's surprisingly easy to heat. It has been insulated (well, as much as you can with plank construction), and we fixed the couple of places where drafts were getting in. The bathroom can get a little chilly for my wife's preference (it's fine for me)...it's on the opposite corner of the house from where the stove is. A small space heater takes care of it. We do have a couple fans to help circulation.

As far as the "exacting building codes of the 1830s" go, the biggest downside we have is that whoever built the house apparently didn't own either a level or a square. :laughing:

Curiously, what was the payback time on the geothermal? ISTM it would be decades (and it still doesn't work when the power is out). How does it deal with really cold weather where traditional heat pumps give up and switch to straight electric heat?
I live in northern N.H. where it rarely gets hot enough to need A/C.

In my case I estimate my payback time was give or take 4 years. The geo salesmen all wanted to know what my heat bills were, but I really didn't have any since I cut wood from my stand. Making 20 cords was getting old after 45 years, and so was I. The agreed upon estimate was about 1,000 gallons of oil annually would be about right, and another $500 in propane for hot water (my supplier murdered me on small customer = high per gallon charge.) There were a lot of state and federal rebates at the time which halved the original cost of $24,000 down to about $12,000. Since those programs have been cut back geo sales have gone down but companies faced with reduced interest have lowered their prices to stay in business. Also this area is heavily dependent on natural gas in almost all areas except mine, and gas is a super bargain right now.
The central air conditioning was a nice little perc., but yeah, I live near Buffalo and only really need it a few days a year.

The geothermal will not work without electricity. In 40 years here I don't think we've ever had more than a few hours without electricity; I live about 2 miles from an electric substation so that helps. Over the years I've had backup generators which I would run once or twice a year to keep rust off, never needed them so they were sold.That's also why I keep a few cords on hand just in case. Because of a settlement from the state power authority I get a residential agricultural break on my electric lowering my electric bill by anywhere from 15% to 40% per month depending on an incomprehensible formula used.


Ground loop eating up less than 1/4th acre; 57 degrees at 8 feet down, some high tech heat pump doing the heavy lifting. The system can keep up on brutal days, it has to work hard to do it, but I am concerned that towards the end of the heating season I've taken so many BTUs out of the ground I've likely lowered the ground temps a few degrees, making the system work harder for the same amount of heat. I have always kept the breakers for the supplemental electric heat in the off position. That's why I supplement with wood a few times a year.

Apparently levels and squares weren't invented by the 1830s. We like to say that our house has "character", a nice way of putting it.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Buy backhoe

Dig trench

Buy pipe and geo units


Install loops

Header for loops

Install pump

Cover pipes


I got quotes before starting, DIY paid for the new tractor vs them installing.

 

[ovrszd]

So the installation cost of Geo Thermal is similar to the cost of a TLB?

 

[goeduck]

So the installation cost of Geo Thermal is similar to the cost of a TLB?

That tells me there is a premium for basic backhoe work!

 

[goeduck]

Header for loops
View attachment 626834.

Are the left headers spare? Also, how many trench feet did yours take? Total pipe length if you have that? Sq footage of house? Sorry for all the questions.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

That tells me there is a premium for basic backhoe work!

Or overpriced systems.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

So the installation cost of Geo Thermal is similar to the cost of a TLB?

I have 2 units, a 2 ton and 3 ton. Here’s my quote for $45.5k before tax rebate. It cost me $14k plus a tractor, around $11k after tax rebate.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Are the left headers spare? Also, how many trench feet did yours take? Total pipe length if you have that? Sq footage of house? Sorry for all the questions.

The left is for my 3 ton unit that wasn’t done when I took the pic.

2ton unit $3940
3 ton unit $4292
Backup heat coils $158 and $189
Fusion kit $1100
7 x 500 ft roll SDR11 $104 each

Flow centers $624 and $949 (2 pumps)

Around $400 for propylene glycol

That’s pretty much all the costs except fittings.

Replacement flow center last yr was $760 for the single pump (2 ton) I need to rebuild the failed pump for a spare.

One 500’ of pipe per ton / loop for slinky plus 100 ft each way is to get to the slinky in the trench, so 700 ft per loop.

I put in shut off ball valves for each loop (allows you to purge each loop using the loop pump) and all the HDPE to metal fittings added up.

Their quote was to connect to existing ductwork. I moved my upstairs unit and totally redid my attic ductwork.

I also ran my own manual J to size the system.
Which I can’t find now. Close to 2700 sf. Plus basement.

Also bought manual j software and geothermal design software. Also took the IGSHPA geothermal installer course and was an accredited Installer at the time.


Slinky trenches are about 65ft long.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Before geo I used an oil boiler and forced hot air from heat exchangers. Still have the boiler in the basement, need to tear that out.

 

[goeduck]

Great information, Thank you! I wonder if I can find the course anywhere or on line.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I see they now have an online course

Training Events | IGSHPA

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I also put in a monitoring system.

Welserver.com

I keep track of loop temps, runtimes.

 

[Egon]

Be aware that there are also vertical heat exchangers.
[video]https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/330029478926423325/[/video]

 

[ovrszd]

Great posts Buckeyefarmer!!! Thank you very much for all the information. Rarely do we get this much detail!!!

 

[fishheadbob]

Be aware that there are also vertical heat exchangers.
[video]https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/330029478926423325/[/video]

When I was pricing out systems the cost for 3 wells to provide the heat source was the same as the ground loop system.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Heat controller units. Same as climate master. They use same control board.

Prices are 10 yrs old.