NG, Propane, gas or diesel generator??

[kenmac]

I guess every area is different. Around here generac has the market. There are a few kohlers, onans coleman, etc,. but, there are more generacs than any other brand

 

[smitty9266]

You do want to run your A\C units. I can tell you from experience That being able to run the A\C in the house saved us thousands in home repairs and losses after Hurricane Katrina. We lost most of our roof and sustained considerable water damage from rain intrusion.....But we immediately pulled down the wet ceilings and stapled plastic sheeting up. fired up the A\C and dried out the carpets furniture and home contents. You could hear the condensate from the dampness run off the coils of the A\C unit. When my insurance adjuster came out we explained what we had done as a measure to reduce our insurance loss, and we were reimbursed all of our fuel cost.

Also.. you can now reduce the size of your generator by using the new load shedding switches. When you install your transfer switch you purchase as an example, 3 shedding switches or modules, you use these for your high draws A\C, water heaters, stove and such. These modules are programmed for priority....1, 2, and 3. When the number 1 is using power it shuts down 2 and 3. When 1 is not in use 2 or 3 will work. When 2 is in use 3 will shut down, if 1 needs power as soon as the load is taken from 2 1 will run.

I hope that is easier to understand than it is to write.

Also remember is is more fuel efficient to run a 30 kw at 1/2 or 3/4 load than it is to run a 20 kw at full load. If you check the specs on fuel usage you will see what I mean.

 

[ultrarunner]

I'd go Diesel since you've always got at least 250 gallons on site.

I had Natural Gas at the Hospital and had to upgrade because of earthquake requirements. Either Propane or Diesel was acceptable. I decided to go with a 125 KwPrime/150 Kw Standby rated Diesel because in an emergency I have the availability for county Emergency Services to supply diesel... Propane would be very questionable and Natural Gas could be out.

Most Natural Gas Generators run on Propane and vice-versa. I know the engine is derated slightly with one... less Btu I think.

 

[srjones]

I'd go diesel over propane for the following reasons:

1. Transferability. You don't need a special pump to transfer it or out. Gravity would work just fine. In the event of a disaster, you could take a few 55 gallon barrels and go looking for a fuel station rather than waiting for propane delivery truck to make it to you. Likewise, you'd be able to help out friends and neighbors in need if you had extra.

2. Since (I'm assuming) your tractor runs on diesel, you'd be able to get non-taxed fuel delivered in bulk.

3. From what I've read, diesel is the most efficient in terms of BTU/Kw.

4. While it's true that diesel's are hard starting in cold weather, you can prevent issues by mounting the genset in a heated enclosed space or using a heated filter.

 

[Dargo]

4. While it's true that diesel's are hard starting in cold weather, you can prevent issues by mounting the genset in a heated enclosed space or using a heated filter.

I know it's probably not exactly the best solution, but in the mines we used to build a fire, put it out, then shovel all the hot coals under the dozer engines. After a half an hour or so the heat rising from those hot coals had the engine and fuel warm enough to start. But, that might not work so well with a stationary generator.

 

[SimS]

Dargo;

Most of the larger commercial grade standby generators I have seen are equipped with a thermostatic crankcase warmer/heater. The heater runs on utility power that way the generator is ready to go 24/7/365. BTW some of the massive generators (large commercial real estate properties) actually come with a small heat pump that dumps the heat into the crankcase oil. Of course these units have many gallons of crankcase oil and tons of cast iron to keep toasty.
Good luck.

Sim

 

[schmism]

I'd go diesel over propane for the following reasons:

1. Transferability. You don't need a special pump to transfer it or out. Gravity would work just fine. In the event of a disaster, you could take a few 55 gallon barrels and go looking for a fuel station rather than waiting for propane delivery truck to make it to you. Likewise, you'd be able to help out friends and neighbors in need if you had extra.

2. Since (I'm assuming) your tractor runs on diesel, you'd be able to get non-taxed fuel delivered in bulk.

3. From what I've read, diesel is the most efficient in terms of BTU/Kw.

4. While it's true that diesel's are hard starting in cold weather, you can prevent issues by mounting the genset in a heated enclosed space or using a heated filter.

con reasons
1) if its not easy to transport, you dont have to worry about someone coming over and stealing some in the middle of the night to run there generator
2) propane has a simular thing for "ag" use.
3) while it might be more efficent in BTU/Kw its also twice as expensive.
-when everyone else in the area wants diesel for there gennies perhaps it will be easyer to get propane in bulk a week after the storm hits.
The company I used to work for, ran 2 50Kw gennies in FL for there office durring the last large FL hurricanes. had to get there 1000 gals of diesel trucked in from AL because they couldnt get any in FL a week after the hurricane. finding bulk diesel WILL be an issue after a major natural disaster
4) why make the system more complex, more you have to maintain, more that can go wrong. you gonna buy 500gal of winter blend in the middle of summer? what happens if you by 400gal of summer blend and the tank is 7/8 full by the middle of winter when an ice storm knocks out power for a week? then what do you with your fuel? heated tank? shure but again, more complex.

do a survey of the area large scale gennies in the area. pop in behind the lowes, the supermarkets, the office buildings and see what kind they are useing.

personally i like the idea of buying 1000 gal of propane and letting it sit indefinitely with no concerns about shelf life, operating temp, no water or other contamination issues...

 

[srjones]

con reasons
1) if its not easy to transport, you dont have to worry about someone coming over and stealing some in the middle of the night to run there generator
2) propane has a simular thing for "ag" use.
3) while it might be more efficent in BTU/Kw its also twice as expensive.
-when everyone else in the area wants diesel for there gennies perhaps it will be easyer to get propane in bulk a week after the storm hits.
The company I used to work for, ran 2 50Kw gennies in FL for there office durring the last large FL hurricanes. had to get there 1000 gals of diesel trucked in from AL because they couldnt get any in FL a week after the hurricane. finding bulk diesel WILL be an issue after a major natural disaster
4) why make the system more complex, more you have to maintain, more that can go wrong. you gonna buy 500gal of winter blend in the middle of summer? what happens if you by 400gal of summer blend and the tank is 7/8 full by the middle of winter when an ice storm knocks out power for a week? then what do you with your fuel? heated tank? shure but again, more complex.

do a survey of the area large scale gennies in the area. pop in behind the lowes, the supermarkets, the office buildings and see what kind they are useing.

personally i like the idea of buying 1000 gal of propane and letting it sit indefinitely with no concerns about shelf life, operating temp, no water or other contamination issues...

I guess the only thing we can all agree on is that gasoline is a bad option

A few counterpoints to Schmism's counterpoints:

1) If you have to worry about people stealing your stuff in a crisis, there are other terms that come to mind (marshal law, looting, self defense, etc.) When running a generator (any type) and you have lights you're announcing to the world that you have power and resources. In the aftermath of Katrina, it was pretty clear (from what I saw on television) how that worked in rural Mississippi and Louisiana, and how that didn't work when the NOPD took away the law abiding citizen's only means defense. I don't mean to go off on a rant...I'm just sayin'.


2) That's probably true, however I didn't think that propane was generally taxed.

3) Wow, I sure wish propane was 1/2 the price of diesel. Maybe it's just my area.

4) Does it really get that cold in S. Indiana? Even summer fuel can be made into winter blend with the right additives. Heck, you can even use heating oil, which by definition is meant to be used in the winter.

--the large data centers that I work with all have diesel generators. Maybe this is just a Northwest thing.

Ok, here's a new proposal: For the NG/LP gennies, how hard is it to switch between the two? Is it a major operation? Or a 5 minute procedure? Your primary backup could be NG, but have the tank of LP installed filled and plumbed ready to go. Have the hardware on hand and practice changing the oriface between the two.

 

[Dargo]

Ok, here's a new proposal: For the NG/LP gennies, how hard is it to switch between the two? Is it a major operation? Or a 5 minute procedure? Your primary backup could be NG, but have the tank of LP installed filled and plumbed ready to go. Have the hardware on hand and practice changing the oriface between the two.

I don't know. A local HVAC place now carries gensets that are NG/LP. I asked them Friday what all is involved in switching. They said that they'd get back with me because they were new to generators and didn't know. Maybe it's simple. Maybe it's not. All I know is I need to know a lot more about generators.

This looks like a decent price for a diesel unit. Is is junk? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=190253344927

 

[kenmac]

Ok, here's a new proposal: For the NG/LP gennies, how hard is it to switch between the two? Is it a major operation? Or a 5 minute procedure?

Unless They have come out with something new . On large generators. It's more than a 5 min.procedure to switch from one fuel to the other. The engines have to be set up & tuned for type fuel used

 

[tomd999]

Dargo,

Be very wary of low price gensets, one of the ways that save on costs is the windings and such. You will find that low price gets you high total harmonic distortion and high telephone interference. You also find lesser quality insulation and bearings.

If your looking for a couple portables, look at this deal from the government: 10 KW GENERATORS

Or if you have a shed you can put one of these examples in, these make excellent light industrial/commercial gensets.

Most of these were removed from refer railroad cars in the 70's. The ones I have seen are powered by a GMC/Detroit 2-53 turning a Delco cast iron frame generator. Generator Detroit Diesel 30 Kw Unit New Controls - eBay (item 160283608621 end time Sep-22-08 18:37:20 PDT)

Or another excellent choice is: 52 KW DIESEL GENERATOR WITH JOHN DEERE ENGINE - eBay (item 170263008449 end time Sep-23-08 16:51:40 PDT)

Both of these are in the price range of your example however they are a bit more work that just buying an economy genset and dropping it on the ground remember, long after the lower price equipment has stopped working, these will most likely be just fine.

Again, my 2.3 cents

Tom

 

[Dargo]

Thanks Tom. As I mentioned, I don't know squat about generators. I've sort of poked around looking at them for a while, but not really seriously. Now I need to find out the things to look for. I don't want to buy some cheap Chinese junk just because it is cheap. Still, I understand that not everything made in China is junk; which makes it more confusing.

 

[RobJ]

Sounds like money isn't an issue so go with the best, Cat make gensets so the price should give you piece of mind. Running 2 4 ton ac units during a crisis is, uhh, impressive. During Ike our 3400sqft home usage was down to 3 rooms. A $114 Lowes window unit, which ran for a very short time because the power came back on) would have kept the 3 room "comfortable". The unit was in the bedroom of course. It ran nicely on my 3500w Robyn genset with 2 fridges, tv, dish, dsl and a few lights. With the cool front moving away I was prepared to run it all night. Usually we ran the thing about 7-8 hours a day. Off at night.

Bigger the genset the more the fuel it'll use. Googling around I found this set to be perfect for my needs if I wanted to go this route. NG is not a proble around here and since the pipeline is in a grid, if there is a leak they can isolate it shut it off, and keep the gas flowing. With this unit I could run 2 window units if I needed and run them all the time. No worry about filling with gasoline.

With Ike most people overbought for a generator (mostly because that's all they had left). If people ask me, 2500-3000w tops. It won't run the whole house, just the basics and an AC at night. Remember the fridge doesn't to be run all the time. A couple frozen water jugs in the freezer and fridge will help out a lot.

Rob

Briggs & Stratton 7,000 Watt (Liquid Propane or Natural Gas) Home Standby Generator - 040298 at The Home Depot

This one might be a little better for a few bucks more. I sort of hear mixed things about the genracs.

Guardian Guardian 8,000 Watt (LP) / 7,000 Watt (NG) Automatic Home Standby Generator - 005501 at The Home Depot

 

[Dargo]

Rob, part of the reason I will go big with my stationary generator is because not only do I have a large family, but I will have quite a few relatives and close friends who have children and will not have any ability to obtain a generator. I don't think it will be like Thanksgiving or Christmas when we literally have a hundred or more people over, but since I am able to do so, I plan to do what I can to help those close to me. I won't have room in my freezers and refrigerators for all their food, but in a prolonged outage I'm certain some would want to bring their units over and be able to plug them in. And in the summer I want to stay cool and obviously warm in the winter.

 

[LMTC]

Dargo,
I bought an LP genset Thursday because it is what I could find, and my family was running on frantic--I needed to do something. I've always wanted diesel for this reason...in "normal" disasters most fuels will be equally available...for the most part. In a serious "TEOTWAKI" situation I ask myself which fuel will be easiest to find....and I answer myself "diesel" from many abandoned vehicle tanks. I'd also want at least a couple good cast iron hand pumps capable of pumping it from underground storage tanks if I should find any. As far as storage, read about PRI-D. We've used it for years, and PRI-G. I've used gas more than a year old treated with PRI-G with no problems. Many years ago a rep from the company (a serious rep whose info I trust, not a sales guy) told me they believed the diesel formula was probably good for ten years and more. He explained details of their test with the 32 year old duel dump found at a Wyoming mine.

We use PRI-D in all our diesel, and the G in our cars. Besides the storage function it seems to be an excellent injector cleaner.

 

[daBear]

Dargo that is more than a good price for a 30kw diesel on eBay. Maybe too good but it looks like they anticipated most questions and addressed the Chinese engine issue head on. Got to be some catch to that because it just looks too good for that price.

 

[RobJ]

Rob, part of the reason I will go big with my stationary generator is because not only do I have a large family, but I will have quite a few relatives and close friends who have children and will not have any ability to obtain a generator. I don't think it will be like Thanksgiving or Christmas when we literally have a hundred or more people over, but since I am able to do so, I plan to do what I can to help those close to me. I won't have room in my freezers and refrigerators for all their food, but in a prolonged outage I'm certain some would want to bring their units over and be able to plug them in. And in the summer I want to stay cool and obviously warm in the winter.

I understand, hmmm, some in-laws you know it might be better to buy THEM a genset. j/k.

But if you are going to spend that much, and its a big concern to you, this is one cases I would buy local expecting and demanding quality support.

Again my big concern is how much fuel can I store and how long will it get me. If everything goes to **** in a hand basket, and you are living fine with the genset on for 10 days, but everything is down for 20 days, IMO it's better to live low onthe hog for 20 days(which might mean less AC...and we know about AC down here!! ), than live high on the hog for 10 and nothing for the next 10.

Also look for a local company or regional company that can build a genset for you. when I worked on diesels we also built custom gensets. Deutz or other engines connected to Lima generators. We built about anything, size, on a skid, fuel tank in skid, enclosures, electric start, air starters, etc.

I'm interested in what you end up with.

 

[dmccarty]

Again my big concern is how much fuel can I store and how long will it get me. If everything goes to **** in a hand basket, and you are living fine with the genset on for 10 days, but everything is down for 20 days, IMO it's better to live low onthe hog for 20 days(which might mean less AC...and we know about AC down here!! ), than live high on the hog for 10 and nothing for the next 10.

We only have enough genset to run the well, fridge, freezer, lights, DSL, PC's, etc. Not AC or hot water. The generator hooks up the DR mower power head so I'll need gas. Figure I can get fuel in advance of the storm, get it out of a car if needed, and worst comes to worse I can drive a couple hours away from the impacted area to get supplies.

Course this may not work for supply the DPS, Dargo's Power Station, since he would be limited in how much diesel he can haul back home unless he has a CDL.

And he will need a 5,000 gallon tanker to go with CDL.

I think I have genset envy.

Later,
Dan

 

[JoeL4330]

Depending on a single genset is not my idea of serious continuity-of-operations planning. I didn't see much interest in my suggested cascade of gensets, one smaller, one larger, (earlier in the thread) which, if both diesel would allow easy fuel management as the mains outage stretched on ...

I'm guessing your current AC units don't run continuously so you could manage with fewer AC units running simultaneously to allow a smaller but more continuous load, which you could accomplish manually or using the priority switching discussed elsewhere in this thread. For operating efficiency as well as capital cost it is important to manage peak demand so you don't have to size for worst-case demand.

If seriously planning for continuity, I would prefer two units to a single point of failure and as I saw my diesel supply dwindle, I would want the ability to scale down.

 

[firedog]

Course this may not work for supply the DPS, Dargo's Power Station, since he would be limited in how much diesel he can haul back home unless he has a CDL.

And he will need a 5,000 gallon tanker to go with CDL.

I think I have genset envy.

Later,
Dan

Either all that, or his own nuclear power plant. Doh!!!!