NG, Propane, gas or diesel generator??

[Dargo]

I only have a small 10k portable generator. It would obviously run a couple of my refrigerators, some lights, etc. I really want to put in a 'whole house' generator setup with an automatic transfer switch. My big "however" is what fuel source to use.

To give some background, I have 800 amp electric service to my place as well as natural gas. I have 4 A/C units and 5 furnaces along with 2 fireplaces. I don't really think I need to be able to replace all 800 amps of service in an outage, but I am spoiled enough to want to be able to run at least a couple of my A/C units; those being 4 ton units each. I also have 2 large freezers and 3 full sized refrigerators running in the house and guest house besides the normal dozen TVs or so, computers and lights.

Now for the part that confuses me some. I do live in an area that is considered part of the New Madrid Fault zone. My thought is that the longest time frame that I may be without power is if we have a massive earthquake. With that being a possibility, I am afraid to go with NG because I think many of the underground natural gas lines may be ruptured and they will be shut off. For propane, I don't have any real desire to have a large propane tank sitting outside anywhere. That leaves diesel. I do have a relatively small, but generally full, 550 gallon diesel tank in one of my barns. Even if it's only half full, that gives me a relatively large amount of diesel fuel on hand in an emergency. For gasoline powered generators, I really haven't seen large ones that run on gasoline nor do I want to keep large quantities of gasoline around the place. Besides it having a comparative short shelf life, it is rather volatile.

So, I ask you guys, what would you do? Besides not being sure what fuel to use, I really don't know what size to get. My guess is that I can probably get by with a 30 to 50k unit, but I don't know. Any ideas?

 

[daBear]

Not sure where to start to comment on this. I am way south of you, but also on the New Madrid fault. In my almost 60 years on earth I have never had a natural gas outage and that is what powers my generator. I have 2 of my 3 ac units on my genset and they are a 3.5T and a 3T. I basically have half my house on the gen, but since I did this while building I was able to carefully specify which circuits are covered. My generator is a 16K air cooled and was only $4K including 100A switch and installation.

If you have an earth quake to the extent that NG is interrupted you probably will have a badly damaged house and can't live there anyway. You can what if this thing to death and still not be happy. NG is (to me) the most reliable way to go without having to get a LP tank or mess with diesel. Just my thoughts. Also, my 16K cost about $1.50 an hour to run and when you step up to what you are thinking of that will go way up.

The size genset you are looking at will be water cooled and cost $20K plus. If that is not a factor, fine, but just how much insurance do you really need for something that will only be used a couple of times a year for minor outages. Then once in every 10 years or more hopefully for a big event like we had down here with Katrina three years ago and I was cooped up in a house with three mad women for two weeks and no air. That's why I have a generator now. In 18 months of use, I have 54 hours on it and most of that is exercise time.

 

[atgreene]

I'm willing to bet the diesel is going to be your most efficient way to power that much demand.

I am looking at a 20 kw propane, as my 16 kw pto is a hassle for my wife if I'm not home. I want diesel, but when it's 20 below zero, propane will start, diesels tend to have issues in our cold climate.

JMHO

There's some decnt deals here: http://www.generatorsales.com/all11.asp?page=1

 

[PBinWA]

Dargo, why not just go with a big PTO generator? You have the tractors and the Diesel. Seems like the logical choice to me.

I guess if you were concerned with making it easy to hook up (or automatic) for your wife then you may want to consider a stand alone.

If I were you, I would get a small propane (good shelf life) automatic unit that would kick in for your wife and then have a big PTO unit for when you are around to hook it up.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Highbeam]

Good thinking PB, in addition, the smaller genset could be used until/unless a big demand needs to be met. I actually prefer a small genset for temporary outages.

 

[schmism]

propane or NG....

just got an email from a HAM in houston dealing with the aftermath of Ike. Has a NG genny. wont run out of fuel unless the natural gass spply is cut off.

propane is the same way, keeps forever without going bad, works in any climate.

both gas (as in air) options are very very clean, oil does not get dirty like it does from gasoline or diesel.

check out the link for 30-50Kw genny's

Available used natural gas generators, propane.

 

[kenmac]

You know your area better than anyone else. But, if you are going with a large generator, I would choose N.G. If you loose gas supply, you will also run out of the other fuels as well on that large of a generator Unless, you install a larger reserve tank. You will need to figure all the start up AMPS on all the appliances you intend to use. With what you've listed . You may want the 50KW

 

[techman]

Gasoline - not good for long term storage, maybe won't work when you need it

NG and Propane - big gen is a lot of gas. Your NG feed may not be big enough to supply the power you want

Diesel - cold weather starting can be an issue (under 32 deg), no issue with long term fuel storage, and long run with a reasonable tank size, most durable (name brand engine)

I went with diesel. No regrets

paul

 

[firedog]

I'd go with the NG as well. Just open the valve crank'er up and walk away. No refilling constantly as with gas or diesel.
my smaller gen (5600W) is set up for LP and I have already ordered a conversion kit for the lincoln machine (10KW).

If you set if up for NG it will also run on LP. Think about a below ground LP tank as a backup to the NG source.

 

[Dargo]

Thanks for the replies. I have ruled out a PTO generator because I feel that it is very possible that I'll need my tractors to work if we have a disaster and have no power. I do like the options and ideas listed though. I think I "want" a diesel generator for the reason I mentioned earlier, but I really don't know. I followed the link listed for used NG and diesel generators. It appears as if I will need a 50kw generator from what I see. I have a nice place for one if I get one that has it's own enclosure. Still, I'm not sure what type.

 

[kenmac]

big gen is a lot of gas. Your NG feed may not be big enough to supply the power you want



paul

Depending on your N.G. supplier. You can have a larger N.G. service / meter installed at little or, no cost to you. You can also ( depending on your supplier) have a seprate service / meter just to supply the generator

 

[PBinWA]

Thanks for the replies. I have ruled out a PTO generator because I feel that it is very possible that I'll need my tractors to work if we have a disaster and have no power. I do like the options and ideas listed though. I think I "want" a diesel generator for the reason I mentioned earlier, but I really don't know. I followed the link listed for used NG and diesel generators. It appears as if I will need a 50kw generator from what I see. I have a nice place for one if I get one that has it's own enclosure. Still, I'm not sure what type.

The one thing I would also consider is, do you really need 50KW during an extended power outage? (I know you like to go big Dargo) But in reality, for an extended power outage you wanted to conserve as much fuel as possible. In my house, I can run our basement power, well pump, hot water heater, and propane stove from an 8500 watt generator. It's everything we "need" to live comfortably and with my usual fuel supplies I can probably go for a week or more (pretty rare for the NW to be that bad for that long).

I think it's good to consider not just the size of the generator but the fuel economy of the unit and how long you may need to go. That's kind of why I suggested a smaller generator that powers the essentials at a more fuel efficient pace. Then if you really need the extra KW you can fire up a PTO Generator or if you must have a big diesel generator have it for backup.

It would kind of suck to sink a lot of money into a big generator and not have a backup option. Considering you have two good size tractors (I think) you have two motors for a PTO Generator. Essentially, with a smaller dedicated generator and an extra PTO generator then you have three options.

In times of disaster, it's nice to have options and redundancy.

 

[Dargo]

Depending on your N.G. supplier. You can have a larger N.G. service / meter installed at little or, no cost to you. You can also ( depending on your supplier) have a seprate service / meter just to supply the generator

Oh, I have a huge NG supply here with all the tankless water heaters, furnaces and 400,000 btu pool heater. My gas meter is the size of a small lawn mower.

Still, I'm obviously confused. My "little" Honda generator has something like a 20 or 22 hp gas engine and is rated at 10,000 continuous output. But, it doesn't have enough to run any A/C units. Since I don't plan on living on generator power, I am getting more interested in looking into some low hour used units. Maybe there would be something like that in a PTO configuration somewhere?

 

[JoeL4330]

me, I'd split my electrical load into: critical; more-or-less essential; and, other. Two new panels, two auto-transfer switches. Feed the critical panel through one AT sw from the more-or-less panel. Feed the more-or-less through the other AT sw from your current mains panel. Two gensets, NG and Diesel, one to each AT sw. Me, I would size and fuel the (smaller) critical one from NG and the (higher-amp) more-or-less from diesel ...but you could do the reverse ...choose your scenario. [if you followed the above description, note that the smaller genset automatically cuts out when the larger is running].

Why would winter starting be any harder for the diesel genset than for any other diesel motor you have? Same winterized fuel, block heater and extra parallel deep discharge batteries optional ...[and, note that except in your catastrophic earthquake scenario the NG genset is running while you fiddle with the diesel if, indeed, you have to.]

I would not think that 800 amp service is required in an "emergency" ...and, if I had natural gas and adored AC, I would have installed gas-powered AC units, which have higher installation costs but lower operating costs.

...it's fun to plan survival scenarios with OPM (other people's money)

 

[kenmac]

Still, I'm obviously confused. My "little" Honda generator has something like a 20 or 22 hp gas engine and is rated at 10,000 continuous output. But, it doesn't have enough to run any A/C units. quote]


Cause it doesn't have enough start up amps to run a 4 ton A/C unit. It will run a small window unit

 

[Dargo]

I would not think that 800 amp service is required in an "emergency" ...

Yeah, I would say that would certainly be a true statement.

Anybody else have any places to look on the net for price comparisons? The only 'reasonable' priced diesel units that are new appear to be Chinese brand power plants I've never heard of. I don't think I want to rely on some junk Chinese diesel engine that comes from the factory leaking oil and is made from WWI technology. I'm always concerned when a brand new diesel engine comes with spare parts.

Price wise, it looks as if NG units would be the best. I still worry about NG lines being ruptured in a major disaster and being left with 20k of useless equipment. I generally do have 3 or 4 full propane tanks sitting around for fork trucks. For some reason I seem to doubt if they would run a 50kw generator very long.

After calling local companies I can see that I'm going to end up buying the generator somewhere other than locally and then just hire one of the electrical contractors to wire in the automatic transfer switch. I've already seen units priced double here locally as compared to what I can find them on the net. Any good places for reasonably priced new or lightly used equipment? I still am up in the air about what fuel source to use.

 

[Dargo]

Still, I'm obviously confused. My "little" Honda generator has something like a 20 or 22 hp gas engine and is rated at 10,000 continuous output. But, it doesn't have enough to run any A/C units. quote]


Cause it doesn't have enough start up amps to run a 4 ton A/C unit. It will run a small window unit

Don't laugh, but I tried. It killed the generator dead. Fortunately it is somewhat idiot proof and it didn't hurt anything.

 

[PBinWA]

Is AC really something you need in an emergency? Even a Heat Pump isn't useful during extreme cold so it should be removed from your formula.

 

[schmism]

Price wise, it looks as if NG units would be the best. I still worry about NG lines being ruptured in a major disaster and being left with 20k of useless equipment. I generally do have 3 or 4 full propane tanks sitting around for fork trucks. For some reason I seem to doubt if they would run a 50kw generator very long.

Kohler Residential 50KW Emergency Backup Generator - Natural Gas or LPV:Kohler Generators:Home Standby:Natural Gas & Propane Generators

1/2 load fuel usage ~5gal/hr

your really going to need a large (250-1000gal) stationary LP tank to run this size of genny for any length of time.

 

[kenmac]

Is AC really something you need in an emergency?

I do. In the summer it hits 90+ here. All all a dog has to do is to wet on the power pole & we loose power