NEWBIE looking for advice

[citytransplant]

The Challenge: Just bought small old country home on almost 7 acres of property. A small creek runs across the entire property, dividing it into two. Home, 2-stall horse shed and about 3/4 acre fenced pasture sits on one side of creek covering about 2 acres. On the other side of the creek there is 1 acre clear and about 4 acres of woods. I need a compact tractor with loader (and possible backhoe?) to clear brush for more horse elbow room, haul manure, groom pastures, build culvert to cross creek, install tile drainage and probably a million other things.

To add to The Challenge, I have never even SAT ON a tractor, let alone driven one. Lived in the city all my 49+ years.

I am looking at a new Farmtrac 270DTC that just happens to be sitting on a dealer lot about 3 miles from my home. I drive by that pretty blue gal every day and she seems to be calling my name. I am not partial to any one brand. The Farmtrac just happens to be nearby and the price seems to be within my means.

Two questions: 1) Is this machine a good fit for my needs? 2) Is it assumed that the dealer asking price is simply that, a price they would love to get but seldom do. Is it customary to haggle over price when it comes to a new tractor or is it like Walmart where what is on the sticker is what comes out of your wallet? I have purchased a number of automobiles, both new and used, thus know the whole haggle routine. I have never paid sticker price for a car and don’t want to for a tractor. I am simply looking for some purchasing strategies.

 

[flwiii]

First off, Get to know the dealer. Find out how well he supports his product in case the undesireable breakdown should occur. The relationship with your dealer is one of the most important parts of the equation. A stubborn or neglectful dealer, no matter the quality of the product is a recipe for disaster. Also, get to know the other competitive dealers. Get a feel for where they stand with their product and how eager they are to spend time with you answering any questions you may have without regard for whether or not you are ready to purchase.

Secondly, I would suggest that you get familiar with more than just one tractor. Test drive the Farmtrac along with the competing brands from other dealers. Get a feel for what is the most comfortable for you. It is not wise to buy something you know little about or have not made comparisons to other product that is available.

As far as the capability of the 27DTC, I can't say, but I'm sure others will pipe in on that.

 

[Maka]

Excellent tractor. It is a very nice size for the type of work on the property size you are working on. Although I represent the Montana line the 270DTC is the same as he Montana 2740 and we have many, many happy customers. The loader is different and I don't know those specs but that is a fine machine.

The tractor is manufactured by LG now LS and has some excellent features. One thing I like on this size tractor is that the space for the operator is comfortable, pretty spacious.

It is a shuttle and not a hydrostat. Be sure a shuttle is what you want as it is gear driven so requires the operation of the clutch but I prefer a shuttle over hydro in most cases. That is a personal preference and you will see many debates here on the merits of both.

The tractor is very reliable as I have many of them in the field and they perform extremely well. I would, like already suggested, talk to the dealer, drive the machine, evaluate the features and the price. If all of those things are good then I would really consider it as the quality is excellent and parts are easy to get get. You won't be disappointed in performance as it will work day in and day out.

Best of luck.

Maka

 

[gamble77]

As Maka did I too will sing the priases of the FarmTrac 270DTC. We have sold lots of them and they seem to perform great. Given your lot size and plans for the tractor I think the 270 would be a perfect fit. The loader that FarmTrac builds for that machine is very nice also, and comes standard with a quick attach bucket (skid steer type).

As for the dealer just make sure you feel comfortable with them. Ask the salesman for customer references in your area. Check out the service deparment. Look at the parts deparment and make sure they stock all the major parts. If you are comfortable with the dealer...and I promise you that you will be getting a quality machine...then I would jump at the deal. Plus its hard to pass up that 0% for 48 months FarmTrac has going on right now!

 

[citytransplant]

Thanks to you folks for the worthwhile suggestions. I have spent hours on this board and have learned plenty.

On another thread, a post recommends... “HST for the loader work”

Why would hydro (if indeed HST is an acronym for hydrostatic tranny) be better for loader work? The Farmtrac mentioned above does not have hydrostatic tranny. What are the pros and cons between HST and shuttle shift? And what is shuttle shift exactly? Is it similar to standard transmission on an automobile? If yes, why is it called "shuttle shift?"

 

[coasterez]

Hydrostatic allows for very convenient and fine control of your tractor. Some employ separate forward and reverse petals, while others have a single rocker "petal" that you push forward with your toe or backward with your heal, see-saw like. Much like the accelerator pedal on your car, the further down you push the pedal the faster you go. Barely touch the petal, and move ever so slowly. Release the petal and stop (except on steep hills). HST is convenient for work that requires a lot of short distance back and forth motion, like loader work or plowing snow. It is also the absolute best for finish mowing, allowing you to go very slowly around flower beds, lawn furniture, etc. and immediately speed up when in the open. HST's are mechanically more complicated than manual trannys and they steal away a few extra horsepower from the PTO.

Shuttle shift is a manual transmission where you set your operating range and gear, and then use a separate single lever to engage forward and reverse. Many tractors are now synchronized. So, you can shift gears on the fly like in a car. Some have syncro shuttles which let you shift from forward to reverse without stopping. Though I would not recommend doing this even on those machines. Operation of the shuttle does required using the clutch, which can be fatiqueing, and sometimes you feel like you need a third arm to operate loader, steer and shuttle all at the same time. The real advantage here, besides costing less, is constant and powerful ground speed and more hp to the pto.

I have an HST in my JD425 and shuttle on my Kioti CK25. I like them both for how I use them. I find the shuttle just fine for loader work. The JD is for mowing and snowplowing. The CK25 is for digging and hauling.

As others have said, look at many brands. I suggest looking at Deere, New Holland, Kioti, Kubota, Agco, Hahindra, and Tym. Also, consider carefully what the MAJOR tasks will be for your tractor. Let the most important ones help you down select. If mowing or bush hogging then PTO hp and HST might be critical. If digging, then weight, hydraulic pump capacity, and loader specs might be most important. If your land is hilly, then look closely at stability, foot print, center of gravity.

For that much land and pasture, I would think you would want a machine having at least 30 hp so you can pull a pretty good size mower. Get the biggest, baddest, best tractor you can afford, and get all the toys (....err....tools) along with it. If moving alot of brush or trees, then a grapple on your FEL and/or backhoe will be very helpful too.

Tom

 

[rtimgray]

Hydrostatic transmissions run the tractor back and forth at the push of a pedal, either one for forward and one for reverse, or by a rocker pedal (push with toe to goe forward, heel to go back). Advantage is quickly going front to back with near infinite speed control within a given range (usually two or three ranges on compact tractors). Disadvantage is usually a little more expensive than gear or shuttle tractor and is mildly more inefficient (robs a hp or two from the PTO). Also usually have to keep engine RPMs up high to get the most out of it - not really a big deal, but the noise may bother some folks. Most folks consider them to be more user friendly. Doesn't really equate to an automatic transmission.

Shuttle shift allows a tractor to go backwards or forwards in a given gear - can be either manual shuttle (press clutch and shift lever), or power shifted, and I think there are a couple of different ways that the shifting can be accomplished without clutching, but I don't know enough to speak intelligently. Good for general work, easy back-and-forth, a reverse in every gear, but you still have to shift using hands and possibly (probably) a clutch. Advantage - cheaper than hydro and good for loader work and general use. Disadvantage - might take a little longer to get the hang of than a HST, but maybe not (very operator dependent).

Of course, there is also a straight gear drive tractor that will have 3 or 4 forward speeds and one reverse in a given range, you have to clutch in between each gear, not as handy (most older ag tractors are set up like this). Advantage - cheap. Disadvantage - a lot of clutch and shifting (and usually not a straight line shift either)

In the end, you should probably test drive each type and decide which one you like best for your application and budget.

Please note - this is a greatly simplified version of what can degenerate into one of the greatest debates on TBN, so I encourage you to search and test drive, draw your own conclusions and reach your own decisions. Good luck.

 

[chatcher]

I won't add anything regarding the choice of tractor because I don't have a lot of experience with many brands, but I will say something about a tractor-mounted backhoe.

I have about the same amount of land as you with similar needs (I don't have any interest in horses but do plan to grow a few things). I bought a tractor with loader and backhoe, and although the backhoe is very useful, a lot of fun to use, and can do most anything I would ask a backhoe to do, if I had it to do over I would not have bought it. What I find is that it spends 99% of the time stored in my garage, taking up a considerable amount of room, and is just hard enough to put on and take off that I avoid using it. Also, when trenching, a small excavator that can travel along the trench would be more efficient. So I would recommend renting a machine whenever a backhoe is needed - you'll have your choice between a full-sized backhoe, a mini-excavator, or trencher depending on the particular job, and it would take a long time to lose money over buying the backhoe attachment.

 

[flusher]

Be sure you get a tractor with an FEL for those "million other things". Bought a 21HP Kubota B7510HST with the LA302 FEL last May (cost: $12,600 plus tax) and have found lotsa uses for the FEL that I never imagined.

I have 10 acres of flat, grazing land with 30 almond trees left over from an old orchard and with about 3/4 acre to be (eventually) landscaped. The Bota has ag tires (came as part of the deal) so it's not particularly useful on landscaped areas. Turf tires/wheels for the tractor would set me back at least $700 so I use a cheapie 18HP/42" wide Huskee lawn tractor to mow the lawn.

For the weeds, I have a King Kutter 4-ft rotary mower (aka brush hog, bush hog, $675 from Tractor Supply Co). I mow 7 acres of weeds and that takes all day moving slowly in low gear. With a larger tractor in the 30HP range I could handle 5-ft wide implements and cut down the time it takes for this kind of chore. A hog like mine will cut 1" saplings with ease. If your brush is larger than this, you'll need a bigger hog and a larger tractor.

Also have a 4-ft box blade scraper (KK, $375 at TSC) to handle ground leveling jobs. Lotsa folks use a BB on their gravel driveways. I've used the BB and FEL to cut 4'-wide trenches for paver block walkways in the front and rear sides of the house. If the rain ever stops here in the North Valley I'll use the BB to scrape the weeds/turf from the areas I plan to landscape.

According to the invoice, the 7510HST cost was $10,000 and the FEL $2600. Considering all the use I've gotten, I figure I've recovered the FEL cost in less than a year.

 

[KentT]

You may want to "think outside the barn" -- sorry for the bad pun, but since you're not going to really farm, why consider only a farm-type tractor...

Check out this ltopic about Power Trac "tool carrires" instead of a more traditional tractor

 

[Soundguy]

Nothing wrong with Farmtrac.. It's not a big 3 .. but it right there with them in terms of company support.

Dealer will make the difference.

Close is good.. especially when it comes to dealer support. Set on a bunch of seats before you write a check.

Soundguy

 

[KiotiJohn]

Shuttle shifts come in a variety of configurations.
Manual: Must stop the tractor before shifting F/R in the gear you choose to operate. Clutch and shift.
Synchro: No need to stop first, clutch and shift
Power shuttle: no need to clutch to shift the shuttle

HST may be the easiest of all to learn, but one gets used to whatever one buys. The biggest mistake I find most gear/shuttle users make is to "slip" the clutch to much while trying to do close up work, leading to clutch burn out. This is eliminated with an HST transmission as the clutch is usually only used on HST to power the PTO or change gear range (High/Low, or High/Medium/Low ranges).
There are some HSTs that don't require a clutch at all even to engage the PTO.

Confusing, yes! Interesting and fun to research and learn, I think so.

I love my HST, have had geared, and would use again.

As for brands, go look! Make sure you know what is included as standard. Some brands, like Kioti include the loader valve and joystick as standard equipment. I think Mahindra may also.
Sometimes the extras can outprice another good standardized brand.

Also consider the fit and finish of the tractor. Do things make sense, is the material that it's made of going to last? Is the metal flimsy, or stiff and strong, does the tractor have enough weight to take advantage of the HP? AM I COMFORTABLE on this tractor? Some tractors have platform operator stations, while others have a "ladder" frame type that your legs basically straddle. Decide which you find comfortable for long hours of use, and ease of ingress and egress to the seat.

I looked at the Farmtracs and they seem just fine, but found that I liked the Kioti much better, and that it was more of everything for my needs. Your opinion may vary.

John

 

[daTeacha]

You said you are new to tractors. I agree with what has been said, but wonder if you understand the acronyms we tend to use. The stuff about PTO horsepower refers to the amount of power delivered to the Power Take Off shaft at the rear and/or middle of the tractor. This power is used to run mowers, and other such things. If you won't be using the PTO a great deal, or for very heavy work, missing a few hp there is no big deal. HSTs are probably the most popular transmissions among the posters. I'm going to be joining those ranks soon, despite feeling tractors need gears. It was just so much smoother to move a half inch or so or very slowy and deliberately that I was hooked.

Whatever you get, you will quickly adapt to using, unless you have trouble with doing anything mechanical. I doubt that or you wouldn't have made the move to country living in the first place. Definitely look around a lot before making a purchase. The machines are all pretty good, but some will fit you better than others, some dealers will seem more like family than others. Check out what your new neighbors are using, or just stop in, say hello, and ask what they think. Country folks tend to be friendly and helpful.

 

[citytransplant]

Thanks to every one of you folks for sharing your experience. I found every post to be very helpful.

Now that all of the snow and most of the mud are pretty much history, I have been able to explore most of the 7 acre property that we bought in December. It appears that I will have a need to drag fallen timber in order to clear trails for horses. What is the best way to tackle this chore? In addition, should I pay close attention to lift capacity when doing side by side comparisons in light of the logging challenge? I notice some specification sheets describe capacity at “lift point” while others reveal capacity 24” behind lift point and to make things even more confusing Montana talks about capacity at “ball ends.” It appears that lifting capacity diminishes as one moves away from the lift point. Where exactly is the lift point (aren’t there really 3 … as in 3 point hitch) and what is a ball end? Why measure capacity 2 feet behind the lift point?

Or should I not concern myself too much with lift capacity, because dragging trees is a job best suited for the FEL?

Thanks in advance.

BTW… looks like someone beat me to the Farmtrac 270DTC that I mentioned in my initial post as I no longer see it on the dealer’s lot. Must be a message from the TractorGod that I need sumpthin’ bigger.

 

[Ryno1]

One other thing to consider - the dealer. Does the dealer have a service center or just sales? Warranty? Does a particular dealer seem interested in what you need or just what he wants to sell you. Check out all the brands close by, sit on them, drive them, do as much as the dealer will allow.

As for moving logs - I have a NH TC30 and I find most of the time, I hook a chain on logs and drag them out of the way. Depends alot on size of the log, but I drag logs that I can't lift. Sometimes it's just easier and to me safer. An unbalanced log hanging from the FEL makes the tractor tippy. Good luck and have fun.

 

[KiotiJohn]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I notice some specification sheets describe capacity at “lift point” while others reveal capacity 24” behind lift point and to make things even more confusing Montana talks about capacity at “ball ends.” It appears that lifting capacity diminishes as one moves away from the lift point. )</font>
I have always considered the lift point to be what Montana is calling the ball ends. Those are the rotating sockets at the end of the hitch arms that the implement pins go through for mounting. Some people consider the lift point to be where the lift arms connect up higher on the rock shafts, but I'm not sure which is correct.

24" behind tells more about how much lift you'll get as that's where many implements will be when hooked on. Yes, capacity goes down the further out away from the lift point you get.

John

 

[citytransplant]

Thanks again for the wisdom shared by all. Having done some apples to apples comparisons, I noticed that 2 Deere units (that would otherwise meet my needs) have dramatically less lift capacity as compared to comparable units. For example:

Deere 790 (27 HP) with 815 lbs
Vs.
Farmtrac 270DTC (27 HP) with 1587 lbs.

Deere 990 (40.4 HP) with 1573 lbs.
Vs.
Farmtrac 330HST (33 HP) with 2976 lbs.

Note with the last example, Farmtrac powerplant delivers 7 less HP yet lifting capacity is almost double the Deere unit.

Am I to deduce that HP and lifting capacity are unrelated? Is it solely the quality and capacity of the hydraulic pump(s) that dictate lifting capability (without regard to the associated power plant) and are the hydraulics on Deere units inferior as compared to comparable makes? Finally, I understand that lifting capacity as described on specification sheets relates to lift at the 3-point hitch. Would lift capacity (or the lack thereof) also impact use of the FEL?

As I mentioned above, I plan to drag trees from woods thus need to consider the lifting ability of any unit I purchase.

 

[RoyJackson]

The 790 and 990 are pretty old designs. Both great tractors...simple, reliable and easy to maintain. However, as they are both "Advantage" (i.e. cheap, considering their power), you get lower capacities in some ways..hydraulics, for example.

However, when you consider the weight of the implements you, as a residential non-agricultural user, will use; I think you'd find the capacities of the 790 quite adequate. The heaviest implement you will probably purchase would be a rotary cutter. A 60" cutter weighs 600-650 pounds, well under the capacity of the 790's 3 Point Hitch.

As far as dragging trees, the 790 can handle up to an 8" tree with little problem (you'll need MFWD and probably the differential lock now and then). The 790, although quite capable, is rather light (about 2200 pounds less ballast).

The 990 is obviously quite a bit more capable. You'd be able to drag larger trees and use a 72" cutter (maybe even an 84" unit).

All that said...I'd look at a 3320 Deere with the power reverser transmission. That tractor may fit your needs better...especially if you want a backhoe.

"Or should I not concern myself too much with lift capacity, because dragging trees is a job best suited for the FEL?"

You'll want to skid trees from your drawbar (steel bar with holes in it located below the rear differential). For towing, that's the strongest part of the tractor. I have used the FEL on occasion to move trees. These were lighter trunks and the only reason I did this was to prevent digging up the finished lawn I had to cross.

BTW, three things not brought up (or I missed them if they were):
1) Tire selection: if you're not going to mow a lawn with your tractor, Ag type (R-1's) would probably be your best choice for maximum traction. Make sure getting them filled is part of the deal.
2) Stall cleaning: If you're going to use your machine to clean stalls, you'll want to get a small enough machine to do that work. This, of course, would depend on the design of the barn and stalls. With 7 acres, I'd guess you're planning on having two or three horses. In that case, a suggested barn design would be the type with the stalls open directly to the corral or pasture (rather then the traditional design with the stalls off a central passageway through the barn).
3) Resale value: The Deere's will remain quite high (compared to a brand such as Farmtrac). That may not mean a thing to you, but is something to consider.

As many others have written, make this choice carefully. If you buy the wrong machine (size or power), you'll take a substantial depreciation if you try selling or trading the first two or three years (as you'd be competing against new tractors and better financing for new machines).

Good luck!

 

[KiotiJohn]

My Kioti CK20HST has a 3pt capacity of 1109 24" aft.
I have used it to haul trees as large as 24" in diameter, so I want all the lift I can get out of it.

Any major lifting like the tree trunks should be done at draw bar height, but you don't have to use the draw bar to do it. I hook a boom pole on my hitch, tie a chain around the lowest part of the pole where it mounts to the hitch arms between the arms, and lift just high enough off the ground to be about even with the draw bar. If you lift up higher, the rear tires become a fulcrum, and the tractor can quickly flip.

3pt's typically have greater lift than do FELs, and the geometry makes them better for the heavier lifting, but smaller trees could be dragged by the FEL as long as they're not over capacity, and that you keep the loader down at carry height, just off the ground basically, to avoid lifting the rear of the tractor. I don't use the FEL for dragging big tree trunks at all.

One reason not to use the FEL is that you have to mostly drag backwards, the arms are not designed for the side stresses that can occur as you maneuver the trunk around. Maybe they can take it, but they're designed for the actions of loading.

Smaller trees that can go in the bucket will be okay IN the FEL, but even then height has to be carefully considered to avoid flips and turn overs. Always going slowly and keeping the loader low is the key. A little dip in flat ground with the loader full of tree trunk could spell disaster.

This is a lot of talk to answer about lift capacity, but I think you want to get more capacity on the hitch than the 790 regardless if you're going to be doing trees.

Capacity is a funtion more of the geometry and strength of the equipment, the size of hydrualic cylinders and hoses, and the size of the pumps. HP of the tractor doesn't really have anything to do with it other than the tractor's ability to move the fluid, flow capacity.
John

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Am I to deduce that HP and lifting capacity are unrelated? )</font>

Yes and no /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif..

Yes.. the tractors engine hp will ultimately set the upper limit for what the tractor could conceivable lift.. if it had a hyd pump capable of utilizing all the tractor hp needed.. and the tractor was strong enough structurally to put that hp to work.

No.. The hyd pump output characteristics , relief settings and the hyd cylinders, the geometry, and the structural integrety of the lift/loader mechanism will determin max lift on the 3pt or loader.. this assumes thate tractor engine can provide enough hp to the pump to meet or exceed the pumps requirments.. etc.

In other words.. a 95 hp tractor could have a wimpy 1500 psi 3gpm pump.. and be a quite useless loader tractor... While a 35 hp compact could have a 2500 psi 5-7 gpm pump and lift more..e tc.

Tractor weight also has alot to do with it. Lighter / small frame tractors cannot lift as much due to ballast.

Soundguy