murphy1244
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2011
- Messages
- 19,512
- Location
- Ohio
- Tractor
- Kubota 1120 RTV Kioti DK-40, MF-135, Ventrac 4500Y
I run the PTO to help warm up too.
My NX6010
- Thread starter MinnesotaEric
- Start date
- Views: 494326
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MinnesotaEric
Super Member
Testus interuptus!
Today, after hitting a couple of the bypass spring coils with map gas to detention (pun!) them and then testing the thermostat function on my stove again, I tossed everything back together and got all but maybe half a gallon of the anti-freeze back in before I started up. The good news is that at idle, the tractor now can build some heat, and after the T-stat opened I was able to get a little more anti-freeze in.
However, after I put the stock 13 pound radiator cap on, I started to smell antifreeze. And so I got my hose out and washed off all of my spills. The antifreeze smell came back immediately and so with the engine running I began to look around at the things I disturbed. Turns out the bottom of the upper radiator hose is weeping antifreeze through the spiral wraps just as was suggested when I first mentioned I have an antifreeze leak somewhere but hadn't located the source last month.
Anyway, it is a little too soon to give a result of the T-stat transplant other than to say that with a leaking upper radiator hose, the engine got some heat in it at idle and seemed to warm up faster (I drove around my neighborhood in high gear, giving my neighbors something to talk about), and it seemed to regulate at the same operating temperature on the temp gauge inside the cab, but it never really did build up much pressure due to the leaky hose.
Since I need to chase up north, and don't want to wait for Kioti parts and the upper radiator hose is basically a straight bit of hose, I think I'll chase off and get a better-made-then-stock Gates hose with the same inside diameter and cut it down to size and retest to try and get a determining result.
Today, after hitting a couple of the bypass spring coils with map gas to detention (pun!) them and then testing the thermostat function on my stove again, I tossed everything back together and got all but maybe half a gallon of the anti-freeze back in before I started up. The good news is that at idle, the tractor now can build some heat, and after the T-stat opened I was able to get a little more anti-freeze in.
However, after I put the stock 13 pound radiator cap on, I started to smell antifreeze. And so I got my hose out and washed off all of my spills. The antifreeze smell came back immediately and so with the engine running I began to look around at the things I disturbed. Turns out the bottom of the upper radiator hose is weeping antifreeze through the spiral wraps just as was suggested when I first mentioned I have an antifreeze leak somewhere but hadn't located the source last month.
Anyway, it is a little too soon to give a result of the T-stat transplant other than to say that with a leaking upper radiator hose, the engine got some heat in it at idle and seemed to warm up faster (I drove around my neighborhood in high gear, giving my neighbors something to talk about), and it seemed to regulate at the same operating temperature on the temp gauge inside the cab, but it never really did build up much pressure due to the leaky hose.
Since I need to chase up north, and don't want to wait for Kioti parts and the upper radiator hose is basically a straight bit of hose, I think I'll chase off and get a better-made-then-stock Gates hose with the same inside diameter and cut it down to size and retest to try and get a determining result.
k0ua
Epic Contributor
I knew that was what you would find on that anti-freeze "weep"
OP
MinnesotaEric
Super Member
I ran out of light to fire up the tractor and make noise in my neighborhood warming it up to temperature (I try to be a good neighbor).
Nevertheless, here is what I have to share:
Near as I can tell, James, the stock upper hose failed because it was overtightened from the factory. The factory hose clamps cut into the hose providing a weak point for a future failure. In the photo below the stock upper radiator hose that failed is on the left and the replacement Gates hose is on the right. Notice the quality difference?
And because it is me, along with replacing the upper radiator hose, I winged the stock hose clamps that damaged the hose as they tighten into the weeds in favor for double loop hose clamps that don't damage hoses when reasonably tightened (these clamps can take torque).
And since it is too late to make noise and remain a good neighbor, I'm pressure testing at 13 psi the entire system.
Nevertheless, here is what I have to share:
Near as I can tell, James, the stock upper hose failed because it was overtightened from the factory. The factory hose clamps cut into the hose providing a weak point for a future failure. In the photo below the stock upper radiator hose that failed is on the left and the replacement Gates hose is on the right. Notice the quality difference?
And because it is me, along with replacing the upper radiator hose, I winged the stock hose clamps that damaged the hose as they tighten into the weeds in favor for double loop hose clamps that don't damage hoses when reasonably tightened (these clamps can take torque).
And since it is too late to make noise and remain a good neighbor, I'm pressure testing at 13 psi the entire system.
OP
MinnesotaEric
Super Member
Sometimes, the bear gets you. My tester showed my system was still losing pressure.
Sigh. Because I want to get out of town and back up north, I had RTVed up the stock thermostat gasket and reused it. Sadly, the gasket didn't hold a seal. This time I took the time to make a new gasket out of gasket material I keep around.
But no good deed goes unrewarded and when I was loosening the rearward bolt of the T-stat housing, the bolt stuck in my swivel socket as I pulled it up, and as I thought, "Noooooooooo!!!" and the radio played Beck's, "I'm a loser, Baby, so why don't you kill me!", the bolt did a Peter Pan and vanished behind the water pump housing.
The first step of bolt recovery was to get a lot more space under the hood. I decided the best way to do with was to use a pair of tie-downs and hook the ends to the cab mirror mounts and hook the tie-downs together under the hood. When I pulled the pin to the gas rams, I then lifted the hood up and tightened the tie-downs to hold the hood straight up.
I then proceeded to tear apart the turbo induction plumbing to gain access to the water pump.
I don't know about you, but my mind tends to wander, and so while taking things apart trying to find the missing bolt, it occurred to me that all this sensor is doing is measuring pressure differential and that a test tube with the proper restriction could do the same thing.
And this sensor? An O2 sensor or an exhaust temp sensor? A test tube with fittings? I should consult the service manual to determine what these sensors are doing.
Anti-freeze leak number 2 turned out to be a dealer installed leak from the optional heater core.
The problem with the optional heater core is access. It is a 30mm hex with no room for a wrench swing or a socket and so the tech likely tightened the heater core as best as he could. My solution, 30mm is close enough to 1-1/8" and so I used my 1-1/8" wrench and an extra-long 1/2" wrench to snug this rascal up. I snugged the heater core up, but the pipe tape looks like I may need to pull the core out, re-pipetape it, and do a fresh install.
I suspect I may still have yet another anti-freeze leak, but I had to quit to go in and watch the Walking Dead. I'll hit the system again with my pressure tester on Monday, weather permitting.
Sigh. Because I want to get out of town and back up north, I had RTVed up the stock thermostat gasket and reused it. Sadly, the gasket didn't hold a seal. This time I took the time to make a new gasket out of gasket material I keep around.
But no good deed goes unrewarded and when I was loosening the rearward bolt of the T-stat housing, the bolt stuck in my swivel socket as I pulled it up, and as I thought, "Noooooooooo!!!" and the radio played Beck's, "I'm a loser, Baby, so why don't you kill me!", the bolt did a Peter Pan and vanished behind the water pump housing.
The first step of bolt recovery was to get a lot more space under the hood. I decided the best way to do with was to use a pair of tie-downs and hook the ends to the cab mirror mounts and hook the tie-downs together under the hood. When I pulled the pin to the gas rams, I then lifted the hood up and tightened the tie-downs to hold the hood straight up.
I then proceeded to tear apart the turbo induction plumbing to gain access to the water pump.
I don't know about you, but my mind tends to wander, and so while taking things apart trying to find the missing bolt, it occurred to me that all this sensor is doing is measuring pressure differential and that a test tube with the proper restriction could do the same thing.
And this sensor? An O2 sensor or an exhaust temp sensor? A test tube with fittings? I should consult the service manual to determine what these sensors are doing.
Anti-freeze leak number 2 turned out to be a dealer installed leak from the optional heater core.
The problem with the optional heater core is access. It is a 30mm hex with no room for a wrench swing or a socket and so the tech likely tightened the heater core as best as he could. My solution, 30mm is close enough to 1-1/8" and so I used my 1-1/8" wrench and an extra-long 1/2" wrench to snug this rascal up. I snugged the heater core up, but the pipe tape looks like I may need to pull the core out, re-pipetape it, and do a fresh install.
I suspect I may still have yet another anti-freeze leak, but I had to quit to go in and watch the Walking Dead. I'll hit the system again with my pressure tester on Monday, weather permitting.
k0ua
Epic Contributor
I agree, one does not miss the walking dead. Be sure to catch the follow up on talking dead too!. Emily (Beth) was looking fine!:thumbsup:
OP
MinnesotaEric
Super Member
With the rain coming down, tonight I finally circled the wagons around the chainsaw carrier I've been thinking about.
When finished, the saw will rest on 1/4" wide 10 pound closed-cell foam. The grip teeth are free the none of the chain teeth take any weight. If I find a nice handle, I'll weld on a nut plate and use the handle as a press.
In other news, before it rained I pressure checked the cooling system, and this time, the system held pressure. I guess I fixed everything last night, after all. I then checked the anti-freeze and it is only good for 10-20 below. In colder climates, we mix anti-freeze and water 60/40 for maximum protection. I'll drop the stock anti-freeze tomorrow and put in 60/40 mix of the ten year stuff.
When finished, the saw will rest on 1/4" wide 10 pound closed-cell foam. The grip teeth are free the none of the chain teeth take any weight. If I find a nice handle, I'll weld on a nut plate and use the handle as a press.
In other news, before it rained I pressure checked the cooling system, and this time, the system held pressure. I guess I fixed everything last night, after all. I then checked the anti-freeze and it is only good for 10-20 below. In colder climates, we mix anti-freeze and water 60/40 for maximum protection. I'll drop the stock anti-freeze tomorrow and put in 60/40 mix of the ten year stuff.
grm61
Platinum Member
OP
MinnesotaEric
Super Member
Today, I painted my chain saw holder which is now in the oven getting the paint baked on. While rattle-canning the chainsaw holder, it occurred to me that if Republicans gain the senate, then we may find favorable conditions for the resolution of Fannie and Freddie, and shares in each company should experience a momentary pop on enthusiasm alone. As a result, I purchased a 1000 shares of FMCKI preferred in today's afternoon session. I then ran out and purchased $20.00 in Mega Millions tickets too because I'm feeling lucky.
If the trade works out, I'll buy a PTO-driven forest mulcher.
If the trade works out, I'll buy a PTO-driven forest mulcher.
murphy1244
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2011
- Messages
- 19,512
- Location
- Ohio
- Tractor
- Kubota 1120 RTV Kioti DK-40, MF-135, Ventrac 4500Y
Notice the full cage, I like that.
grm61
Platinum Member
Eric, Ive been thinking about your concerns with the warm up on you NX series tractor
Your a smart guy and very determined..
So take whatever you want of this, if any, of this and put in your think tank.
I'd like to share some of observations of my DK45 in cold weather.
Some things to ponder...My tractor for instance....is 2.2 liters in displacement, it holds 8 quarts of ice cold oil....a 7.4 or 8.1 liter big block chev gas pot holds 7.5 quarts .....over three times the displacent.... and gas...holding less oil than the little tractor motor.... d.That is a lot of oil to warm up for a small displacement diesel motor with aluminum oil pan dissipating heat rapidly with the engine fan blowing cold air accross it./B]. on top of that diesels run cool.
The tractor is not going to make any heat at dead idle when it's cold out.
I'm sure you probably have a point and shoot infrared thermometer...take some reading on your oil pan.
I fired my tractor up last winter at O degrees F, the reading on the oil pan was +1F, after 15 to 20 minutes of running approx. the coolant temp had reached normal operating temp..needle was between the dots...the oil temp was up to 27 degrees F:shocked: It takes quite a while when it is cold out for these little motors to heat all that oil and coolant, and cold cast iron...also remember diesels run cold, yours should do slightly better with the oil being pumped through the turbo.
.
When you were talking about your coolant leak...you referred to the block heater as a heater core...probably just a mix up in terms....
FWIW, the heater core, (think small radiator) is in your roof, the coolant lines you will see going up through the cab frame to the top, the heater fan blows cold air across this also....I/m sure you probably know this, but just throwing it out there to not leave anything out.
I know your tractor has auto throttle, and I don't know if you can turn it off??
Things I noticed on my 45...when COLD out...I fire my tractor up At idle, after a couple minutes I bump it up to 1250 to 1300 let it run for 7 minutes or so then bump it up 1450 to 1500..a few minutes after that the coolant temp it up between the dots.
If I do that same procedure, and turn the heat on (think water valve) and turn the heater fan on it will barely come off cold during that time....So I don't turn the heat temp up (water valve) until I have heat in the motor... If I do things in this order it will warm up fine...but not at idle, I follow this routine in the summer as well, takes less time though, When it is real cold I will run it for twenty minutes or so before I use it, lots of cold iron and oil to get warmed up, I run the pto as well to help warm the hyd oil.
When I'm clearing snow and need to get off the tractor for a while I leave it run about 1400 to1500 with the heater blowing and it will stay up at normal, if I knock it back to idle it will slowly cool down.
For me, not a big deal to modify my driving style a little in the winter, these thing are made to work hard in all seasons.
You will figure out this winter what works for you, hope maybe some of this might help.
Good luck
My tractor also has a aluminum oil pan that dissipates heat very well, the engine fan also moves a lot of air that aids in the cooling effect of the oil as well.
Your a smart guy and very determined..
So take whatever you want of this, if any, of this and put in your think tank.
I'd like to share some of observations of my DK45 in cold weather.
Some things to ponder...My tractor for instance....is 2.2 liters in displacement, it holds 8 quarts of ice cold oil....a 7.4 or 8.1 liter big block chev gas pot holds 7.5 quarts .....over three times the displacent.... and gas...holding less oil than the little tractor motor.... d.That is a lot of oil to warm up for a small displacement diesel motor with aluminum oil pan dissipating heat rapidly with the engine fan blowing cold air accross it./B]. on top of that diesels run cool.
The tractor is not going to make any heat at dead idle when it's cold out.
I'm sure you probably have a point and shoot infrared thermometer...take some reading on your oil pan.
I fired my tractor up last winter at O degrees F, the reading on the oil pan was +1F, after 15 to 20 minutes of running approx. the coolant temp had reached normal operating temp..needle was between the dots...the oil temp was up to 27 degrees F:shocked: It takes quite a while when it is cold out for these little motors to heat all that oil and coolant, and cold cast iron...also remember diesels run cold, yours should do slightly better with the oil being pumped through the turbo.
.
When you were talking about your coolant leak...you referred to the block heater as a heater core...probably just a mix up in terms....
FWIW, the heater core, (think small radiator) is in your roof, the coolant lines you will see going up through the cab frame to the top, the heater fan blows cold air across this also....I/m sure you probably know this, but just throwing it out there to not leave anything out.
I know your tractor has auto throttle, and I don't know if you can turn it off??
Things I noticed on my 45...when COLD out...I fire my tractor up At idle, after a couple minutes I bump it up to 1250 to 1300 let it run for 7 minutes or so then bump it up 1450 to 1500..a few minutes after that the coolant temp it up between the dots.
If I do that same procedure, and turn the heat on (think water valve) and turn the heater fan on it will barely come off cold during that time....So I don't turn the heat temp up (water valve) until I have heat in the motor... If I do things in this order it will warm up fine...but not at idle, I follow this routine in the summer as well, takes less time though, When it is real cold I will run it for twenty minutes or so before I use it, lots of cold iron and oil to get warmed up, I run the pto as well to help warm the hyd oil.
When I'm clearing snow and need to get off the tractor for a while I leave it run about 1400 to1500 with the heater blowing and it will stay up at normal, if I knock it back to idle it will slowly cool down.
For me, not a big deal to modify my driving style a little in the winter, these thing are made to work hard in all seasons.
You will figure out this winter what works for you, hope maybe some of this might help.
Good luck
My tractor also has a aluminum oil pan that dissipates heat very well, the engine fan also moves a lot of air that aids in the cooling effect of the oil as well.
OP
MinnesotaEric
Super Member
Thank you for your thoughts. I mess up nomenclature all of the time. And names. I try not to, my bad. Bad enough that I do it when talking but my auto-spell changes words on me all the time. Gets really bad when it is trying to auto correct an option chain. At any-rate, I cannot be revving up an engine at 10 degrees or less to warm it up. The tractor will be stored in my sister's unheated pole barn and tasked with whatever they want. For that reason I'm also considering a circulation engine heater such as Zerostart's 8000 series. According to their literature, a 750 watt heater should take a stone cold engine to 120 degrees in about half and hour of being plugged in.
A 330-5036 in this
http://www.phillipsandtemro.com/userfiles//Industrial Tank Circulation Engine Heater Sellsheet.pdf
Or a 3308001 in the 8000 series for a 750 watt circulation heater.
http://www.phillipsandtemro.com/userfiles//Series 8000 Tank Circulation Heater.pdf
If anybody wants to go off the deep end and find all kinds of products that keep fluids like brake lines from freezing and fuel lines from freezing, to external cab heaters, here you go.
Phillips & Temro - Literature
Edit: After hunting around, I decided to go with the industrial 1000W application. The least expensive source I found was here: ZeroStart - 330-5048 - 1000W Industrial Circulation Heater
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k0ua
Epic Contributor
I'm still trying to get over the one with the trough and the bat lol
yeah, that was a little tough, but Rick was right, those Terminus folks messed with the wrong bunch.
grm61
Platinum Member
what is wrong with the block heater that's. presently on the tractor, does it not work?
TSO
Elite Member
Eric... I don't know if you're over thinking the tstat issue, or the pre-heater, or if there is such a design flaw that forces the issues to be addressed...
But at least on my tractor, it only takes a couple mins for her to warm up enough to start blowing warm air out of the vents. And maybe only 5-10 mins max for the air to turn hot. That's with storing it in a non heated barn, no block heater.
I doubt that Massey unlocked some patented secret there, my buddies Kubota seems to warm up quickly as well.
I'm just saying, it might have been prudent to see just what kind of factory performance you would have actually gotten in the winter, before making any changes. .... ?
But at least on my tractor, it only takes a couple mins for her to warm up enough to start blowing warm air out of the vents. And maybe only 5-10 mins max for the air to turn hot. That's with storing it in a non heated barn, no block heater.
I doubt that Massey unlocked some patented secret there, my buddies Kubota seems to warm up quickly as well.
I'm just saying, it might have been prudent to see just what kind of factory performance you would have actually gotten in the winter, before making any changes. .... ?
murphy1244
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2011
- Messages
- 19,512
- Location
- Ohio
- Tractor
- Kubota 1120 RTV Kioti DK-40, MF-135, Ventrac 4500Y
Running the PTO will help too.
RDrancher
Veteran Member
OP
MinnesotaEric
Super Member
From my own experience of starting this tractor in sub 40 degree weather, I do not like the extended warm-up time while under load. Remember, a Tier 4 machine plugs its own particulate filter faster while warming up or if left idling, and so it gets shut off when jumping out for a few minutes or more. This means, for me that the tractor is starting from "not warmed up" throughout the day. Performance stinks when cold and the exhaust filter gets plugged. Right now, the tractor claims that it doesn't need a regen cycle, but the tractor has lost enough power that is cannot drive its own weight up a 6-7% grade in high gear. So, I have a 60 hp tractor that isn't acting like a 60 hp tractor. As a result, while I have it where I can try things, I'm trying things. Also consider that last year the coldest night they had at my sister's was forty below zero and so I want a provision to be able to warm up the engine from an outlet if needed since I'm moving there within the next year.
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TSO
Elite Member
Wow, hadn't even thought about the tier 4 complications .... But that power loss phenomenon would really chap my gluteous maximus! No offense, but your trials and tribulations with this tractor are making me really glad I have this tier 3 Massey, even though there was a time I had seriously considered the NX6010 for the extra PTO HP.
I'm looking forward to the day when the tinkerage is complete and your start using this thing regularly ...interested to see how it holds up
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've owned many (17) diesel pickups. Diesel's should never be left idling in sub zero temps. Your RPM's should be bumped up 1250-1500 to keep cylinder temps high enough to allow full fuel burn. If left sitting at idle, you're going to run into cylinder wash. I've always bumped my idle up 12-1300 after 1-2 min at idle. I do this with all of my pickups and tractors and haven't had a problem to date. By doing this you will also have faster warm up times.
