irrigation zone control

[WinterDeere]

Attention @Complete Turf Care, this one is right up your alley!

I'm running an old 1990's Rainbird system with only 6 zones, and I have it max'd out, with a need now to add another two zones for new gardens created around our pool and patio. The installers only pulled a single 7C cable from controller inside, under several gardens and concrete or flagstone walkways to the nearest junction, so even pulling another control wire is going to be a non-trivial task.

Before I go either disconnecting zones that may be well-established enough to go without irrigation, or pulling new wiring for a larger controller, I figured I should ask... are there controllers that use serial addressing like a bus system, which might work over old 7x22AWG wiring? This couldn't be any high-speed affair, the wiring ain't particularly "clean", with several wire-nutted "break-ins" and extensions due to mod's made over the last 30 years. But even without serial comm's, just static AND/OR logic, you should be able to address up to 64 valves with 6 + 1 conductors.

The down side is that I don't want to be digging up zone boxes to replace valves, so it'd have to be something already compatible with Rainbird CP100-type valves, like a simple screw-in solenoid replacement.

And yes... before anyone asks, I did consider just putting the new solenoids in tandem with an existing zone. But I'm trying to manage flow rate within capacity of a 10 gpm well, on a system with some relatively large zones. It might be doable, but I want to exhaust other easy options, before resigning to that.

 

[Complete Turf Care]

Most controllers have the ability to add zones by adding another module. But, if yours is old, that may not be possible. Changing the controller is not that big of a deal.

For adding more zones with existing wire, I don't think that's possible. As far as I know, you need a wire for each zone, unless you have a "2-wire' system, which is not what you have and is a whole other beast.

You should not need to replace any valves. If they still work, you should be fine.

I think your biggest issue is the wire. I think you will need a new wire to get to your new zone valves. It may be easier to add a new controller to get to the new zones, instead of pulling a new wire to get across your pool and other obstacles. If you add a new controller, you will also need to connect to the water source somewhere.

There are such a thing as wireless valves. They are battery powered and don't need wires. You just have to remember to change the battery every year.

You can buy these that will control 1 or 2 or 4 valves. With these, you will just need to connect to a water source.

Hunter WVL-100 Single-Station Wireless Valve Link | Cheap Sprinklers

Wire-free valve control for Hunter ICC2 & HCC systems. Add valves up to 2,000' without new wiring. Guaranteed lowest price with fast shipping.

cheapsprinklers.com

 

[WinterDeere]

Thanks, Complete Turf Care! I knew you’d have the answer.

Do you think the problem I’m facing, of too-few conductors in existing wiring is common enough to justify a product development, to solve the problem? Would I find a customer?

The logic required for a low-speed static binary addressing of valves would be relatively simple. Subtracting out one conductor as the common, it would allow anyone to control 2^C-1 valves, so 63 valves with my 6+1 conductors. You’d need a converter at the controller and then another at each valve grouping, so they’d have to be made cheap, but I do think that’d be doable.

But, it’d be hundreds of hours of product development, especially for me, as I don’t usually work on submersible plastic consumer stuff powered by 24V logic. The packaging and marketing for retail sales, heck… even dealing with retailers, might be an even bigger challenge, as all of my product development and sales is all commercial-only.

 

[ponytug]

Thanks, Complete Turf Care! I knew you’d have the answer.

Do you think the problem I’m facing, of too-few conductors in existing wiring is common enough to justify a product development, to solve the problem? Would I find a customer?

The logic required for a low-speed static binary addressing of valves would be relatively simple. Subtracting out one conductor as the common, it would allow anyone to control 2^C-1 valves, so 63 valves with my 6+1 conductors. You’d need a converter at the controller and then another at each valve grouping, so they’d have to be made cheap, but I do think that’d be doable.

But, it’d be hundreds of hours of product development, especially for me, as I don’t usually work on submersible plastic consumer stuff powered by 24V logic. The packaging and marketing for retail sales, heck… even dealing with retailers, might be an even bigger challenge, as all of my product development and sales is all commercial-only.

I know folks around here who have complex irrigation systems, and they did what @Complete Turf Care recommended. They have controllers for the NW side plants, NW side trees, NE side... Personally, I think that the distributed controllers helps with troubleshooting, as you know that the issue is in the NE segment. (And while it is malfunctioning, the rest of the system works...)

Personally, I'm not a fan of the WiFi valves as a) the whole battery change thing, (solar and a lithium battery would seem better) and b) the inherent IoT security risks, but that's me.

All the best, Peter

 

[WinterDeere]

If a battery can last through our relatively-short watering season (mid-June into October), then I'd have no trouble with wireless valves, from the battery change perspective. But many of my valves are 300 feet from the controller, thru a building and other obstacles, so I anticipate connectivity issues.

I'm just surprised no one has a static-addressible system for these valves, and that everyone is still running 1 conductor per valve. In case anyone is not following what I'm saying, just consider the 7-valve configuration possible with only 4 conductors (3 signal + 1 common). If "0" is 0V and "1" is 24V on each of three conductors, we'd have:

000 - all off
001 - Valve 1 on
010 - Valve 2 on
011 - valve 3 on
100 - valve 4 on
101 - valve 5 on
110 - valve 6 on
111 - valve 7 on

7 valves with a 4 conductor cable from controller to valve box, and each time you add 1 conductor to the wire bundle, you double the number of valves you can control. And this doesn't rely on high quality wiring for high-speed signaling like a 2-wire serial bus system. It's selection by DC or 60 Hz AC voltages.

It's probably cheaper to just pull more conductors on any new install, but this could be a life-saver for anyone looking to expand an existing system without pulling new wiring... like me!

 

[Complete Turf Care]

The wireless valves are not WiFi. I think they are Bluetooth and you program them from your phone and not from a controller.

@WinterDeere it seems that what you are describing is a "2-wire" system, or a possible variation of it. A 2 wire system will control many valves at long distances from the controller with only 2 wires. Each valve has a "decoder" that is programmed to operate that valve.

I don't know of anything available that could be added to existing wire so that you could control 2 or more valves separately with one wire

If you were to develop something like that, I would think there would be a small market for it. Or, you could patent it and sell it to Rainbird or Hunter.

 

[Complete Turf Care]

I apologize for the link I posted earlier. Those valve controllers are controlled by a RF (radio frequency) signal. They are good for up to about 1000' but you must be in 'line of sight'.

This is the valve controller I was thinking of. These are programed with your phone at close range. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

Hunter NODE-100-VALVE Battery Controller with PGV-101-G Valve | Cheap Sprinklers

Single-station battery controller with pre-installed PGV-101-G valve. 3 programs, waterproof, no AC power needed. Guaranteed lowest price with fast shipping.

cheapsprinklers.com

 

[ponytug]

@Complete Turf Care, no worries here! I have seen various versions, some WiFi, some Bluetooth, some zigbee; there are a bunch of ways to not run wire.

I think the many flavors is itself also an issue, because it is hard to know whether the company, or the technology, or the app or central control devices will still be around in the future.

All the best,

Peter

 

[WinterDeere]

If there were all solenoids that screwed onto a very standard valve, such as the Rainbird CF's, then longevity of the solenoid or control manufacturer would be less critical.

Also relevant to this thread, as whatever conversion I make is going to be best if easy to apply to valves I've already installed.

 

[Valveman]

I have a Hunter Node that runs two Rainbird valves on a remote garden. Works fairly well. Don't have to open the valve box but need to be close to the Node to get Bluetooth to connect. I have used DIG timers before as well, and I think they now have a Bluetooth option. With multiple remote timers you just have to make sure they work at different times and when using a Cycle Stop Valve zone flow rates do not have to exactly match the output to keep from cycling the pump to death.

 

[WinterDeere]

Yeah, I am cycling my pump to death, but we’ve already discussed the reasons why cycle stop may be risky on my old setup.