Irrigation wiring question

[RedDirt]

I have four like irrigation controllers, an Orbit model with a wireless remote for each. These four, six station controllers will all be mounted on a board, together, in the garage.

When I am wiring the bank of controllers can I hook up all the valve common wires with a jumper to each controller? Or does do the valve commons need to be run only to the station dedicated to operate that valve?

The former is my desire as it gives me the most flexibility of hard wiring individual stations as the system is built and valves are added to the system. This will be an add-on as needed project, maybe a couple of years before fully operational. Also, as stations locations come on line, the valves of that station may need to be operated from two different controllers simple as a function of running out of stations on one controller to handle the three/four valves located there. If I can't bulk all the commons together at the controllers I'd need two commons to the stations to run valves from separate controllers.

BTW - I'm building this way because the controllers were very cheep, $10, $15 as I recall; a promotional sale at Home Depot. A 24 valve controller in comparison normally runs several hundred dollars.

 

[jeffinsgf]

There's no reason that the common coming from a manifold can't be jumpered into two controllers (or more). Seems like it might get a little confusing, though. Personally, I would run 7 conductor cable to each manifold location and let one controller run that manifold.

 

[Willl]

Don't think so, you can't share commons with all three transformers.

Now if you could get one larger transformer to run all three controllers, that would work.

 

[Willl]

Then again, drawing it out on paper doesn't look so bad, and we all share the same common/ground/earth with no problem.

 

[RedDirt]

Willl,
It's the valve commons, not the transformer commons, that I want to join and connect to multiple controllers. But thanks for the input.

Jeffsgf,
Your reply is encouraging, thanks.

All the underground wires are already installed, When I built the house several years ago I rented a trencher for a weekend to install my water main. It worked so well, and I had it all weekend, I made a quick sketch where I thought I'd want stations and went ahead and ran my irrigation mains and control wires. Just capped them off "for later". Mostly I ran 4 and 6 conductor wires but a couple home runs are 7 conductors that I split downstream to two stations. I'm just now installing the valves and laterals.

I'm not sure why joining all the valve commons and running to various controllers would be any more confusing than tracking the 40 or so wires I already have. If all the white wires are common at all stations, as typical, then it might even be easier. Good record keeping, a labeling system, and accurate as-builts are the only ways I know to keep it all straight.

 

[aczlan]

Willl,
It's the valve commons, not the transformer commons, that I want to join and connect to multiple controllers. But thanks for the input.

I'm not sure why joining all the valve commons and running to various controllers would be any more confusing than tracking the 40 or so wires I already have. If all the white wires are common at all stations, as typical, then it might even be easier.

where I worked last summer we had a very large irrigation system, the main system had a pair of rainbird ~30 station controllers and 4" mains going to the lawn, in this system the white (common) wires were all hooked together. we also had another that was almost as bit and it also had the commons hooked together.
so based off of that I would say if you are using one transformer to power everything, connect all of the commons together.


Aaron Z

Aaron Z

 

[Soundguy]

If it were me, I'd connect all the commons for each controller.. but not specificall 'bus' all the commons together. just my opinion on the subject. There is no benefit of cross connection all the commons.. however.. if a fault occurs, you could be sharing the fault across all the controllers if you 'bus' the commons. ( few ground fualts that would cause a problem.. but there are some.. )

Soundguy

 

[Willl]

Can't do one without the other.

 

[RedDirt]

where I worked last summer we had a very large irrigation system, the main system had a pair of rainbird ~30 station controllers and 4" mains going to the lawn, in this system the white (common) wires were all hooked together. we also had another that was almost as bit and it also had the commons hooked together.
so based off of that I would say if you are using one transformer to power everything, connect all of the commons together.

Aaron Z

Aaron Z

When you say "if you are using one transformer to power everything" do you mean the transformer that powers the controller? willl also mentioned "transformer". Now I'm confused x2.

To me "transformer" is the power source. My four controllers each has it's own 26vac/750mA power transformer. Do I need to get a single transformer to power up all the controllers from one power source in order to cross connect the valve solenoid commons? Would that be a 26vac/3000mA transformer and then daisy chain the controllers together (wire together in series like a line of receptacles)?

 

[aczlan]

When you say "if you are using one transformer to power everything" do you mean the transformer that powers the controller? willl also mentioned "transformer". Now I'm confused x2.

To me "transformer" is the power source. My four controllers each has it's own 26vac/750mA power transformer. Do I need to get a single transformer to power up all the controllers from one power source in order to cross connect the valve solenoid commons? Would that be a 26vac/3000mA transformer and then daisy chain the controllers together (wire together in series like a line of receptacles)?

yes the transformer is the sole power source, I would not connect the neutrals of multiple transformers together, too much of a place for problems if one transformer goes out.

attached is a crude diagram, sorry it is not any better but I am rebuilding my computer and don't have Visio back on
yet.


HTH

Aaron Z

 

[Soundguy]

Can't do one without the other.

Uh.. sure you can... Each controller may have? 4 circuits. All 4 of those circuits can have a common neutral... and then discrete 'hot' leads. Move on to the next controller.. same deal.. and again.. and again. I said to not connect each controllers neutral to the next controller ( bus ).. IE.. let each controller have it's own neutral system.

It's VERY easy to have one and not the other... key here is when I said 'each controller'

soundguy

 

[Willl]

key here is when I said 'each controller'

The bigger 'key here' is if my reply was towards you, to which is was not.

 

[Soundguy]

The bigger 'key here' is if my reply was towards you, to which is was not.

Then you might utilize some of the reply features availble here on this forum.. like a 'QUOTE'.. since your message appeared right under mine.. with no quotes in it.. how was anyone suposed to determine who you were replying to.. other than the person/post directly above yours... I doubt any of us are psychic here...

soundguy

 

[Willl]

like a 'QUOTE'.

Oops, my bad. Sorry, won't happen again.

jeffinsgf dude, sorry if I confused you too, I was replying to the OP.

 

[RedDirt]

Thanks for all the input. I think I am getting the picture that the power transformer "common" and the solenoid commons are all one and the same. I was treating them as separate and different in my mind. Some sketches helped. To keep things simple consider I have two 3 station controllers and four valves at two different locations. So although I wanted to do this...(pdf is a better looking copy of the same sketch)

View attachment A-Want.pdf

(because I have the four transformers that were supplied with the controllers) you seem to be suggesting I do this...

View attachment B_Need.pdf

because a ground fault/problem of one of the individual transformers could "infect" the others (or the system).

What I don't want is this...

View attachment C_Don't Want.pdf

because then I could not run two valves from one location from two different controllers and some controller spaces would go to waste. IE: If I had two more valves from yet another station, this wiring would have me running it to a separate controller and Y3 and Z3 would be lost.

Here are some photos of the actual equipment. I only got two stations on line Sunday. The next three from two locations will also be connected this same controller. Then I have three at another box to connect and that's where the cross pollination would begin. To utilize the remaining 6th location on the first controller I want to join all the commons at the garage central control board.



Now the multiple questions:
So in your opinion is drawing 2 "Need This??" acceptable?

Would I use a 26VAC/3000mA transformer to power up all four controllers? Or, if I am careful to not program two controllers to operate at the same time, do I power them all from one of the 26vac/750mA transformers I have?

If the former above,running higher amps to each transformer has me concerned with overload protection. Should each transformer be then individually fused?

Is 3000mA the same as 3Amp?

Grainger has trans formers rated a V/A. What would be the V/A rating I would need to power the four controllers from a single transformer?

Thanks again for your help. A lifetime in and around construction has given me a decent education in most trades and I've become adept at many. Electrical is still my weak point. I still think it is magic!

PS. When I posted I found my jpg's converted from pdf's fell apart so I added the pdf's if you need a better look at the sketches.

 

[Soundguy]

Is 3000mA the same as 3Amp?

.

Yes.

soundguy

 

[RobertN]

I came in to this late; you already bought stuff...

I would recommend a different controller. I use the Hunter Pro-C models. I have at home, and have installed for customers, a 32 station capability. One controller. One thing to program. Multiple programs, so yo can have daily watering on one schedule, weekly on another etc.

The Hunter Pro series is the easiest to use, easiest to program unit that I have found. I found other models, and manufacturers hard enough for me to figure out, much less the customer.

Thanks for all the input. I think I am getting the picture that the power transformer "common" and the solenoid commons are all one and the same. I was treating them as separate and different in my mind. Some sketches helped. To keep things simple consider I have two 3 station controllers and four valves at two different locations. So although I wanted to do this...(pdf is a better looking copy of the same sketch)

 

[jeffinsgf]

RedDirt,

I think someone has convinced you to make this much harder than it is. The common going to the solenoids has nothing to do with the power supply from the transformer. SoundGuy had a reasonable reservation re: tracing faults, but it would be fairly easy to disconnect the various controllers if you had a fault in one. You were on the right track when you started --- stay there.

 

[RedDirt]

RedDirt,

I think someone has convinced you to make this much harder than it is. The common going to the solenoids has nothing to do with the power supply from the transformer. SoundGuy had a reasonable reservation re: tracing faults, but it would be fairly easy to disconnect the various controllers if you had a fault in one. You were on the right track when you started --- stay there.

jeffinsgf,
You keep giving me the answer I want to hear. At first I didn't think the power transformer and solenoid commons were directly related but replies got me thinking they must be. The valve solenoid needs its power from somewhere and the where seemed to be the hot and neutral of the incoming transformer wires.

So I'm good to go with the "A-Want" schematic in above post?


RobertN,
The four 6 station controllers were a "purchase of opportunity" at $10 -$15 (4+/- yrs ago) each and I knew a 24 valve controller would cost hundreds. I looked at the Hunter Pro-C on the web but can't find out everything that's required because of its modular design so I haven't a clue how to price check. I found other 24-36 station controllers in the $1200 $1800 range...way too expensive for my wallet.

Could you tell us a ball park cost of the 32 station model you mention? It looks ideal for my needs but hard to believe it would be within my budget. I could upgrade to a unit costing a few hundred but above that I'll have to make do even if end result wiring demands that I limit the capability/capacity of the system

 

[RobertN]

We used the Hunter ICC. It is just like the Pro-C, except a bigger box. It is hard wired; the transformer is built in.

Looking on the web, the one I have is $175 with an 8 station module installed. It is expandable to 32 stations, using 4-station or 8-station modules; the 8 station modules appear to run $60.

Hunter ICC-800-PL - ICC Series 8 Station Controller, Plastic Cabinet (outdoor) for sprinklers and irrigation systems.

We got ours a couple years ago. Installed another one shortly after for a customer. They were less then. And, we got installer pricing. FWIW, we get all of our stuff at John Deere(used to be Green-Mark) locally.

We're running 18 stations, with room for expansion. We have the ICC-800-PL, with two additional ICM-800 modules(total 24 possible stations). We have one empty slot.

We originally had a a couple controllers. It was a pain to get them synced up. Our well supply is limited, so we have to do some creative watering(mostly drip). We had to make sure two controllers did not turn on at the same time. With multiple stations, multiple programs, it was challenging.

I have installed a bunch of the Hunter Pro-C and SRC units. Very reliable, and very very easy to set up, program etc.

RobertN,
The four 6 station controllers were a "purchase of opportunity" at $10 -$15 (4+/- yrs ago) each and I knew a 24 valve controller would cost hundreds. I looked at the Hunter Pro-C on the web but can't find out everything that's required because of its modular design so I haven't a clue how to price check. I found other 24-36 station controllers in the $1200 $1800 range...way too expensive for my wallet.

Could you tell us a ball park cost of the 32 station model you mention? It looks ideal for my needs but hard to believe it would be within my budget. I could upgrade to a unit costing a few hundred but above that I'll have to make do even if end result wiring demands that I limit the capability/capacity of the system