Aside from running an old Allis and brush hog a few years back, in my time in the ag industry (about 8 years in precision farming) I can't actually recall having run anything off a PTO. The only thing I can think of that may have would be a pump for a pull-type sprayer. Everything else was hydraulic remotes - vacuum pick ups on planters, fold boxes, hydraulic motors of some form - seed drive, fluid pumps, etc. In any case, the modern machines are pretty simple - just a knob, button, or toggle switch for everything - remotes & PTO. The old machines? Levers and clutches.
International 444, 1968. Progress Thread, Getting Going
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DJ54
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- IH Farmall 656 gas/ IH 240 Utility/ 2, Super C Farmalls/ 2, Farmall A's/ Farmall BN/McCormick-Deering OS-6/McCormick-Deering O-4/ '36 Farmall F-12/ 480 Case hoe. '65 Ford 2000 3 cyl., 4 spd. w/3 spd Aux. Trans
By the time those modern machines get the age of that 444, they probably be setting in a salvage yard because of all the electronics being inoperable, or just too expensive to fix if parts are even available.
I have a friend who brought his 2 year old approx. 60 hp Mahindra to dig some post holes for a project our horse club did in a State Park. He dug the first 2-3 holes just fine, then all of a sudden the PTO stopped working. It has a toggle switch on the dash to engage it. I know very little about it, but after 5 minutes of looking I suggested checking the fuse to see if it had blown, from possible short. Took the cover off the fuse panel which is above the foot platform on the left side of the lower dash. The whole fuse panel was corroded. Mike keeps his tractor pristine and washes it off after he uses it probably 90% of the time. All that washing let water in the panel and corroded it up.
Another friend bought a new 100 hp John Deere. Had a full 1 year warranty. Tractor was just over a year old and out of warranty. He had his 15' batwing hooked up to clip pasture, and tractor would not start. Called the dealer he bought it from and described what it was doing. Service manager said it sounded like the onboard computer went out, then told him it'd be 2 weeks before they could get a technician out to fix it. Called another dealer he's dealt with that isn't a part of the other dealer's network of dealerships 100 miles away. Service manager told him the same but could have a tech there the next day. He plugged the analyzer in and sure enough, computer was out. Went to his service truck and brought back 2. One OEM JD for $1500 w/90 day warranty, aftermarket one for $850 w/1 year warranty, and let my buddy decide. He went with the $850 one. All those modern conveniences are great as long as they are working, very expensive to fix when they don't. It seems new machinery has gotten too technical and not built to last. Ok if you trade it in every few years, if it will even last that long before major problems due to electronic failure.
That's why I love my old iron..!!
I have a friend who brought his 2 year old approx. 60 hp Mahindra to dig some post holes for a project our horse club did in a State Park. He dug the first 2-3 holes just fine, then all of a sudden the PTO stopped working. It has a toggle switch on the dash to engage it. I know very little about it, but after 5 minutes of looking I suggested checking the fuse to see if it had blown, from possible short. Took the cover off the fuse panel which is above the foot platform on the left side of the lower dash. The whole fuse panel was corroded. Mike keeps his tractor pristine and washes it off after he uses it probably 90% of the time. All that washing let water in the panel and corroded it up.
Another friend bought a new 100 hp John Deere. Had a full 1 year warranty. Tractor was just over a year old and out of warranty. He had his 15' batwing hooked up to clip pasture, and tractor would not start. Called the dealer he bought it from and described what it was doing. Service manager said it sounded like the onboard computer went out, then told him it'd be 2 weeks before they could get a technician out to fix it. Called another dealer he's dealt with that isn't a part of the other dealer's network of dealerships 100 miles away. Service manager told him the same but could have a tech there the next day. He plugged the analyzer in and sure enough, computer was out. Went to his service truck and brought back 2. One OEM JD for $1500 w/90 day warranty, aftermarket one for $850 w/1 year warranty, and let my buddy decide. He went with the $850 one. All those modern conveniences are great as long as they are working, very expensive to fix when they don't. It seems new machinery has gotten too technical and not built to last. Ok if you trade it in every few years, if it will even last that long before major problems due to electronic failure.
That's why I love my old iron..!!
Ive been delayed on my project with a lot of things. However, we are better situated now so I started digging in again.
Where I left off was trying to get access to the belt pulley to get to the timing marks. That required hoisting the loader frame, removing a cylinder, and removing the rest of the body paneling to gain better access.
I was able to do all that tonight and I got the crank set at top dead center. Next up is installing the new parts in the distributor and getting everything put back together. I realize a timing light might be required to dial in the timing, but hopefully this will get it close enough to start with (I am following the service manual process to set the initial timing).
Where I left off was trying to get access to the belt pulley to get to the timing marks. That required hoisting the loader frame, removing a cylinder, and removing the rest of the body paneling to gain better access.
I was able to do all that tonight and I got the crank set at top dead center. Next up is installing the new parts in the distributor and getting everything put back together. I realize a timing light might be required to dial in the timing, but hopefully this will get it close enough to start with (I am following the service manual process to set the initial timing).
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dieselscout80
Veteran Member
Looking good. 
I don’t know if the gas ones have a idler pulley with a bearing like the diesel 424/444 have, but mine has been through a couple of the bearings over the years.
If it does have one now would be a great opportunity to check/change it out.
I don’t know if the gas ones have a idler pulley with a bearing like the diesel 424/444 have, but mine has been through a couple of the bearings over the years.
If it does have one now would be a great opportunity to check/change it out.
On this side there is nothing between the crank pulley and the fan pulley. I will have to look at the other side closer and see. Thanks for the suggestion.Looking good.
I don’t know if the gas ones have a idler pulley with a bearing like the diesel 424/444 have, but mine has been through a couple of the bearings over the years.
If it does have one now would be a great opportunity to check/change it out.
DJ54
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Hopefully you have it on TDC on the compression stroke on #1 cylinder (Cylinder at the front of engine.) If on the exhaust stroke, you will probably get a serious backfire, when it fires on the exhaust stroke, if it happens to be on #1, nothing if TDC on another cylinder, unless spark jumps across lugs in distributor cap.
Don't know how hard of a job it is to turn the crankshaft is, but removing the valve cover, and waiting/watching which valve moves on #1 cylinder would be the easiest. You'll want the intake valve closing (it will be 2nd. valve back from the front) 180º before it comes up on TDC. Crank to cam ratio is 2:1 so it may take more than a couple of revolutions to get to that point. Since it looks like you have the spark plugs out, it should turn that hard.
Don't know how hard of a job it is to turn the crankshaft is, but removing the valve cover, and waiting/watching which valve moves on #1 cylinder would be the easiest. You'll want the intake valve closing (it will be 2nd. valve back from the front) 180º before it comes up on TDC. Crank to cam ratio is 2:1 so it may take more than a couple of revolutions to get to that point. Since it looks like you have the spark plugs out, it should turn that hard.
Yes. The timing marks dont appear on the fan belt pulley on the front of the crank shaft unless the #1 cylinder is up. If you are beyond about +/- 40deg from TDC on #1 the marks disappear.
Progress last night - I set the firing order to 1 3, 4, 2 per the service manual and clocked the distributor accordingly (#1 firing to match TDC on the timing marks). I am getting some spark now. However, my indicator light is showing rather dim. I'm not sure if I am getting enough juice or what.
Compression appears to be OK - well over 100 on my gauge all cylinders.
Still no fire - even with starter fluid spray.
I did swap the ignition coils. That didn't make any difference, either.
I am going to try new spark plugs, freshening them up anyway is a good idea.
We'll keep at it.
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I got to new spark plugs in. Gap is right about .023" per service manual (plugs came out of the box pretty much right on).
Still no fire.
I went through each plug with my indicator light and I am getting the same dim glow on every plug. So I know I am getting some juice to them, but I still question if it is enough.
That begs the question - how much do I need?
I have the battery sitting on a float charger/maintainer and it is topped off and cranks strong. So I can't see system voltage being "low". Per my earlier work re-wiring things - with the fresh wiring I can't see there being resistance in the connections - loosening all the nuts and bolts and tightening them all over again would have worn through the oxidation/corrosion on the nuts/bolts/washers and there hasn't been enough time for the new terminals to have corroded.
I did have someone else crank while I sprayed starter fluid in the carb. No luck there, either.
When I tested compression the other day I was getting over 100 on each cylinder, I can go back to my video clip and get more exact numbers if it is that important - in other words, I would think there would be plenty of compression to get it to fire on, whether it is in spec or not I can't say, but I am confident that shouldn't prevent it from firing period.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Still no fire.
I went through each plug with my indicator light and I am getting the same dim glow on every plug. So I know I am getting some juice to them, but I still question if it is enough.
That begs the question - how much do I need?
I have the battery sitting on a float charger/maintainer and it is topped off and cranks strong. So I can't see system voltage being "low". Per my earlier work re-wiring things - with the fresh wiring I can't see there being resistance in the connections - loosening all the nuts and bolts and tightening them all over again would have worn through the oxidation/corrosion on the nuts/bolts/washers and there hasn't been enough time for the new terminals to have corroded.
I did have someone else crank while I sprayed starter fluid in the carb. No luck there, either.
When I tested compression the other day I was getting over 100 on each cylinder, I can go back to my video clip and get more exact numbers if it is that important - in other words, I would think there would be plenty of compression to get it to fire on, whether it is in spec or not I can't say, but I am confident that shouldn't prevent it from firing period.
Thoughts? Ideas?
DJ54
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Since you have a multi-meter I'd check voltage going into the distributor when engaging the starter by grounding one lead and touching the other to the stud on the side of the distributor. You should see 12 volts. When you let off the starter switch/button, you should see 6 volts. They are designed/built this way to give it a hotter spark when starting, but only when the starter is engaged. One you let off the starter, it goes to 6 volts to lengthen the life on the ignition points.
There should be a resistor (faded part # 68 in this diagram) pretty close to the location of the voltage regulator as shown in this wiring diagram from Case/IH online parts book: Case IH | Schematic, Manuals, Specifications and Diagrams for electrical system, starting and lighting, gasoline engine tractors | MyCNH US Store That resistor is bypassed when the starter is engaged to provide 12 volts to the distributor on startup. I'm wondering if your coils have a internal resistor, I'm thinking they are marked if they do.
Since I don't know what wiring has been changed, or deleted, if the wire bypassing the OEM resistor has been deleted and sending 6V to an internal resistor coil (if that is what you have) I'm not sure how much more it may reduce voltage. Your multi-meter should tell you pretty quick.
If you do have 12V at that stud when engaging the starter, I'd clean the contact points even though I'm sure you said they were new. I have read where they put a coating on them from the factory to prevent possible rust. A piece of card stock, new business card, or even a fairly new dollar bill makes a great cleaner pulling through the points when closed. Since you have starting fluid a little spritz before and after of pulling cleaning paper of choice through several times.
If that doesn't work, I'd suspect the condenser. Even though new I'm seeing some guy's getting bad condensers new out of the box. Just make sure where the band around the condenser is making good contact with the base plate inside the distributor, even though the screw into the base plate should be good enough, and make sure the wire from condenser is properly attached to the contact point set.
Start with the easy stuff first, checking voltage in and out of the coil with switch in running position, then in starting mode, whether by key switch, or push button switch. Then work your way through the ignition system, cleaning points, checking condenser mounting/connection. It's probably something simple, just have to work your way through it.
There should be a resistor (faded part # 68 in this diagram) pretty close to the location of the voltage regulator as shown in this wiring diagram from Case/IH online parts book: Case IH | Schematic, Manuals, Specifications and Diagrams for electrical system, starting and lighting, gasoline engine tractors | MyCNH US Store That resistor is bypassed when the starter is engaged to provide 12 volts to the distributor on startup. I'm wondering if your coils have a internal resistor, I'm thinking they are marked if they do.
Since I don't know what wiring has been changed, or deleted, if the wire bypassing the OEM resistor has been deleted and sending 6V to an internal resistor coil (if that is what you have) I'm not sure how much more it may reduce voltage. Your multi-meter should tell you pretty quick.
If you do have 12V at that stud when engaging the starter, I'd clean the contact points even though I'm sure you said they were new. I have read where they put a coating on them from the factory to prevent possible rust. A piece of card stock, new business card, or even a fairly new dollar bill makes a great cleaner pulling through the points when closed. Since you have starting fluid a little spritz before and after of pulling cleaning paper of choice through several times.
If that doesn't work, I'd suspect the condenser. Even though new I'm seeing some guy's getting bad condensers new out of the box. Just make sure where the band around the condenser is making good contact with the base plate inside the distributor, even though the screw into the base plate should be good enough, and make sure the wire from condenser is properly attached to the contact point set.
Start with the easy stuff first, checking voltage in and out of the coil with switch in running position, then in starting mode, whether by key switch, or push button switch. Then work your way through the ignition system, cleaning points, checking condenser mounting/connection. It's probably something simple, just have to work your way through it.
After some quick voltage checks I found the tap on the start solenoid for the ignition power (where both the 12v start/hot start power and the low V line off the ballast resistor meet to go to the ignition coil) was bad. I didn't troubleshoot it beyond voltage, however I suspect it is grounding out somehow and killing both the hot start and the run v. Hot start was under 2v.
So I bypassed that to try by taking the leads off the ballast resistor and shorting them. This got me battery voltage at the ignition coil. I will work on wiring around the start solenoid tap today (may use a relay for the hot start instead, if I can find one, or just put a manual switch on for the time being).
In any event, I am getting somewhere now. Based on some theory a buddy of mine laid out - it sounds like I have the distributor clocked to the wrong stroke (exhaust, not intake/compression). I will check that in a bit and see where I get then.
This is all excellent learning experience. Once I get through it I'll be able to keep it going. Thats the point. One of the attractive thoughts on getting an old machine like this was to have something around that will always be able to "get the job done" even once we start upgrading machines on the farm. If one takes a dump what do you fall back on?
This fall is not going how I wanted it, but being our first couple months here we're still situating. If I had ground opened up back in August that would have been great - then I could maintain it through the fall, winter, and spring to get as much decomposition as possible. At this point I'd just be happy to get ground plowed by November, at the very least before the ground freezes. We still need to acquire a plow and a disk. I have a ripper we can use to break compaction and stir up roots, but a plow and disk are critical to the ground prep - they turn over and mix the soil, whereas the ripper only breaks and lifts.
So I bypassed that to try by taking the leads off the ballast resistor and shorting them. This got me battery voltage at the ignition coil. I will work on wiring around the start solenoid tap today (may use a relay for the hot start instead, if I can find one, or just put a manual switch on for the time being).
In any event, I am getting somewhere now. Based on some theory a buddy of mine laid out - it sounds like I have the distributor clocked to the wrong stroke (exhaust, not intake/compression). I will check that in a bit and see where I get then.
This is all excellent learning experience. Once I get through it I'll be able to keep it going. Thats the point. One of the attractive thoughts on getting an old machine like this was to have something around that will always be able to "get the job done" even once we start upgrading machines on the farm. If one takes a dump what do you fall back on?
This fall is not going how I wanted it, but being our first couple months here we're still situating. If I had ground opened up back in August that would have been great - then I could maintain it through the fall, winter, and spring to get as much decomposition as possible. At this point I'd just be happy to get ground plowed by November, at the very least before the ground freezes. We still need to acquire a plow and a disk. I have a ripper we can use to break compaction and stir up roots, but a plow and disk are critical to the ground prep - they turn over and mix the soil, whereas the ripper only breaks and lifts.