Hydro vs Geared

MAW · Apr 23, 2003

I need some help. I am looking at purchasing a Kubota L3000. I am a first time tractor buyer, I have rented many for various jobs, but I have never owned one. I have 20 acres, pasture land cut out of a wheat field, which needs mowing fencing etc. I like the L3000, but I have mostly operated hydro tractors. So my question is this - what are the pros and cons of Hydro vs Gear? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I plan on having a loader, brush hog, box blade, and auger (eventually). Budget is a concern and I am having a hard time even considering a hydro (3130), But if there are major draw backs to a geared tractor I might have to wait longer before purchasing a tractor. All help is greatly appreciated /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

crown · Apr 23, 2003

You will find LOTS /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gifof info on this subject if you use the search, the readings should keep you busy for days. This is probably on of the most hottly debated subject /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif on the board.

MAW · Apr 23, 2003

Thanks, I was just realizing that, I should have browsed a little more before I asked.

hazmat · Apr 23, 2003

Welcome to TBN.

This is the most hotly debated subject on this discussion board. This is your warning, you are apt to get many strongly voiced opinions.

I'll give you the bottom line up front. Buy what you are comfortable using.

There are a couple different gear trannys, "basic" requiring you to come to a complete stop and push in the clutch to change directions, and the "deluxe" depending on manufacturer, refered to as "shuttle shift" or "power reverser" etc. These allow you to shift from forward to reverse w/o stopping or clutching.

To my knowledge (I could be wrong here), all transmissions require you to stop to change gear ranges (Hydros have L, H or sometimes 3 ranges). The one exception might be the Class III New Hollands.

here are the major pros and cons as I see them.

Hydro: Pros: ease of changing direction, infinite speed, resale value, safety(debateable). Cons: initial cost, less efficient (~5% +/- less available PTO HP)

Shuttle: Pros: ease of changing direction, resale value?, Cons: requires stopping to change speed

Basic gear: Pros: Cost, Cons: less user friendly

I don't think anyone will disagree with the pros/cons I've listed. But what is debated is how much of a difference there is regarding the qualitative pros/cons, ie safety & user friendlyness. Some say they feel the hydro is safer because if you step off the pedal, the tractor stops. Some feel it isn't safer because if you abrouptly step of the pedal, the tractor stops too fast, or they are used to pushing in a clutch & a brake to stop a tractor. Purely personal preference.

You say you've mostly used a hydro. How did you like using the gear tractor? Did you feel it was as user friendly (for you)? Do you feel you'd be as productive?

When you factor in resale value, the cost issue for a new machine becomes a matter of a few percent of the total value of the tractor (comparing Kubota w/ Hydro vs. Kubota with gear), so my recommendation is to buy based on your comfort level, not cost. Especially considering all the low interest financing deals to be had. If you were looking at a used machine, buying a gear tractor can make a more significant difference.

Also, if a gear tractor is for you, that opens up many options as far as manufactures go beyond Kubota. Mahindra, Kioti, Branson, Century etc. These can offer even more savings.

Try using the search function. A search on "hydro vs. gear" is sure to turn up a bunch of posts.

RobS · Apr 23, 2003

Well done Hazmat!!! You may have just written the best, most neutral comparison between hydro and gear in recorded history. I'll second everything you said, particularly the part about "was it user friendly for you". Without a doubt, that's the most important question but also the hardest to answer without a lot of seat time.

Best of luck in the decision, get as much experience with each option to make the most informed decision you can /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MossRoad · Apr 23, 2003

I agree with CROWN.. do a search on "gear AND hydro" and start reading. It is a hotly debated, personal choice issue(although most TBNer's are very civil about it /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif). There are advantages and drawbacks to both.

The best advice I can give you is, if you can, test both models that you are considering in real world conditions and see which one you like best. Good luck in your search. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

CSAW · Apr 23, 2003

I would say drive them both. My thoughts are that the more simple a machine is the more reliable it will be and cheaper to repair it will be. If I was going to be making a living doing FEL work I would go for the hydro.

I opted for the geared for my purposes. I figured this would be the last tractor I will ever buy (I hope). Gears and clutches are very simple machines. I believe anyone with a little mechanical ability could put a new clutch in one. My tractor, after owning for a while sometimes sits for up to a month at a time. I think this is much less hard on a simple gear machine than it would be on a hydro with seals and such. I know hydros are reliable and i'm not knocking them.

I hope to have mine for another 20 or 30 years if I live that long. I don't try to push or pull things in too high of gear or slip the clutch so I don't see where it should ever need one unless it has a defect. I would also bet that clutches are much cheaper than hydro components and problems are easier to diagnose and fix.

One more advantage is there is more pto horsepower out of the same hp engine with a geared tractor. This makes the price difference even more than apparent since you can drop a horsepower range and have about the same pto hp.

For my personal needs geared seemed like a better choice even if the cost was the same. I just wanted a simple economical tractor (if there is such a thing) that will do everything I need it to do with reliability and mechanical simplicity. I know others will disagree and I respect their opinions.

You have to decide what best fits your future plans for the tractor and do what you think will best suit you.

The only draw back I have found is that I can't change gear ratios as fast as a hydro, but I think the long term simplicity will out weigh that. However, I can change direction as fast as anyone though.

 HOWEVER , I would not recomend a geared unless it has a synchronized shuttle shift of some kind.

Try them both and make your own decision and get what you want and you won't be sorry.

Just my opinion and Good Luck

Alan L. · Apr 23, 2003

I recommend you test both, under typical types of work, such as mowing and loader use. I personally would never consider anything other than a hydro, because you can get a lot more work done a lot faster, if changing speeds and directions quickly are important.

frank_f15 · Apr 24, 2003

1st of all WELCOME TO THE FORUM. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A GEARED TRACTOR. just a matter of preference, hazmat pretty well said it all for the pros and cons of each, but for my personal taste i like the hydro. very nice when doing loader work, and i love the ability to control speed just by backing off the pedal. but again this is what i like. u have to make the decesion. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

chrisjbell · Apr 24, 2003

but for my personal taste i like the hydro. 

Geared tractors are just fine, and for certain types of work they are superior. I like the hydros, too, though, and one of the main reasons is that they work really well for mowing. My neighbor has a geared tractor and whenever he has to reverse he has to cut out his PTO, shift, reverse, shift again to forward, then go again.

With my hydro, I just stomp on the "back" pedal and I'm going backwards, PTO still running strong, and then hit the "forward" pedal and I'm going again. It is really nice for maneuvering while mowing. It also allows for good control when easing the FEL into position.

But there are drawbacks, as have been pointed out already. For me, however, hydro is the way to go and my next tractor will have it (both my larger Kubota and smaller JD have it). Just my input, for what it is worth (advice was free and is worth about that much /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif).

knucklehead · Apr 24, 2003

Dittos on the welcome to TBN.

I have an older geared 4wd tractor, and it functions just fine - most of the guides found in manufacturers' information, as well as salespeople, talk about geared transmissions being better for field type applications with fewer direction changes. Still, I can change direction pretty fast, but I get a little "snick" every time because I am faster with the fingers than the feet. It makes me both slow down and wonder how much I am peening over the gears. Every once in a while I grind it pretty good - that's my fault and not the tranny.

I guess I'd like a power reverser or hydro, but I wonder how much heat I am generating with direction changes under power. I'm sure they are designed to function properly with normal maintenence. I rented a GST Kubota a few years ago (L2850) and the fluid either leaked out or was nearly dry when I got it - by the end of the day, it did not want to change direction. I called the rental shop, they came out and filled it up, and let me finish my work. I never found any fluid on the ground, but I was using the bucket and a box scraper to level an acre or so of fill, so I may have buried it. I gained respect for those type of transmissions, even though I felt kinda dumb about it.

Truthfully, I'd rather spend $$ to get an independent PTO and power steering, but with newer models that's like asking a car dealer if your model comes with power brakes and steering, nowadays /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif On Kubotas, GST would be just fine; I never considered resale on a tractor - or a truck for that matter. But I guess those used low hour tractors have to come from somewhere. Don't know much about HSS on Fords (Sorry, New Hollands) or the Power Reversers on the Martians, but I assume they are similar to GST.

I gather the L3000 is new as you mention the 3130 when talking about hydro. Have you considered used? Have you considered finding a new 2002 L3010 leftover to save a few bucks? This is the place to explore those options, if you can take the time.

More 2 cents for you. You'll have fun here; and we'll want pictures.

hayden · Apr 24, 2003

I'm curious what the price difference is between an L3000 and a 3130? The 3130 is available in a geared model too, so there are other differences between the 3000 and the 3130 model (I don't happento know what they are). Are these other differences important to you?

In general I'd suggest waiting as long as you can to get the tractor you want. They you'll be happy going forward rather than always thinking about whether you should have waited to buy more.

Soundguy · Apr 24, 2003

( It is a hotly debated, personal choice issue(although most TBNer's are very civil about it ). )

I think the term ' Holy War' is suitable. But yes... most of us try to 'play nice'.

Soundguy

BillG_in_TX · Apr 24, 2003

"price difference is between an L3000 and a 3130?"

I would guess that the average price difference is about $2000, depending on region and dealer. The 3130 has a fully synchronized shuttle shift, is 700 lbs. heavier, has a hydraulically actuated live independent pto, improved 3ph, many improvements in ergonomics, etc. etc. It's a different tractor which happens to share an engine with the L3000.

Soundguy · Apr 24, 2003

What are the makes / models of these tractors that can't go into reverse with the pto engaged? All my ford / nh/yanmar will...

As for hydro vs. gear.. I think the biggest coice difference comes from use.. i.e., is it a loader machine.. or a ground engagement machine.. if a loader machine.. I guess hydro is the way to go... if the machine disc's / plows / pulls.. even heavy mowing.. all day...gear.

Soundguy

gerard · Apr 24, 2003

What are the makes / models of these tractors that can't go into reverse with the pto engaged? All my ford / nh/yanmar will...


I have an L2500DT, simple geared tractor without a live pto, my biggest reget /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif I CAN go in reverse with the pto engaged but when you shift to change direction you have to clutch, when you clutch the pto disengages until you let the clutch back out again so if you're hogging and want to back up the pto briefly disengages until you let the clutch back out. SOOOO, the PTO does go in reverse, but it briefly stops while actually making the shift - make sense??

sendero · Apr 24, 2003

Ok, here's a question. It is a sincere one and not intentionally designed to fan the flames of crusade /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have been led to believe that a hydro transmission, due to the very nature of its design , is destined to "wear" out. Now, hold on, I'm aware of the fact that the gears in any transmission will wear out in the really long term. (As a famous economist once said, "in the long term, we're all dead") I'm talking about wearing like a clutch (only longer to be sure). Is this true? Was this inflammatory rhetoric designed to steer me away from hydros? Is this long time a *really* long time, like 20-30 years or normal use?

thcri · Apr 24, 2003

Sendero,

I believe there may be some truth to what your saying. But if you like Hydro we just maybe have to think along the lines that we will have to service it someday just like the gear tranny. Yes Hydro for the most part would be more. But the hydro tranny over the years has gotten better and better and better in all makes. If we are willing to pay more for it up front, then we must be willing to pay more for it to repair. Nature of the Beast.

I know that an automatic transmission and hydro are two different things but I do kind of compare them as the same. Gear versus automatic, Gear versus hydro. Remember when they first put an automatic in a pickup, everyone said they won't last, and then they all laughed when they put them in trucks. Today they have them in Semi-trucks. And they are working fine. With Hydro we are paying for a luxury and luxury's are not cheap. It is like having electric windows or seats in your car. Yes the repairs are more, but we will still go out and buy them again in the next car.

Now here is the other side of the coin, I own 40 pickups. I have 40 different drivers driveing them. I have found that the automatic has been more reliable than the standard transmission. Why, because it is much easier to drive. Put it in gear and go, no popping clutches, grinding gears and smart kids trying to shift without using the clutch. So we won't buy another standard transmision.

just a few pennies and really not sure if worth anything.

murph

kcook · Apr 24, 2003

I would go with what some of the others have said. You know what and how you will be using the tractor, drive them both, see what you like the best, weigh all factors that have been talked about. I think you will find people both like and dislike both and there comments will reflect that.

Good Luck!

KC

timb · Apr 24, 2003

A question for anyone who may know - exactly what would be expected to wear and need repair in a hydro? (Under normal circumstances) It's not really an automatic tranny like you'd find in a car. Planning on eventually having to change a clutch on a tractor doesn't "scare" me, been there done that, to some extent. But thinking about self-wrenching on a hydro 15 or 20 years from now scares the willies out of me. But honestly - what is there to wear - and what might ever need replacing? Some seals/o-rings? Have no idea.

(Reminds me of when I was leery of tackling changing disk break pads 'cause I had never done it - at a time when even as a mid-teen I could tear down and rebuild a complete mopar drum set blindfolded. Once I did it I felt kind of foolish not realizing how little there actually was to do. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)